Blue Angel (Canados 70s) Rebuild thread

[jfm]

Mapis, in EN a "scupper" is a slot opening at bottom of bulwark, level with deck, to allow water to drain. I don't know the EN for a trincarino. It might just be called the "stringer level with the deck".

On blue angel I doubt there are any short beams under the walkarouns in the way you describe. They will nearly all be long, full width, e.g. to support the saloon floor. Remember on BA the beams hold the weight of BA's plywood superstructure, not vice versa.

Bart, great job and thanks for the pics.

 

[MapisM]

On blue angel I doubt there are any short beams under the walkarouns in the way you describe.
They will nearly all be long, full width, e.g. to support the saloon floor

Good point, you are of course correct.
I didn't think that in BA the walkarounds are aligned with the cockpit level, and probably also the external step is aligned with the internal one in the saloon - is that right, B?
The construction I mentioned before is typical of boats where the internal floor is below the walkaround level.
As it is in my old boat, and in most others smaller than BA - say up to 60 feet or so.
Regardless, my previous warning still stands, obviously.

Thanks for the terminology review.
I suppose that the same position is the reason why I remembered the term scupper...
Stringer level with the deck does convey the idea, but fwiw "trincarino" is specifically used for the most external course of planks, not for any deck stringers.
Actually, coming to think of it, I don't think that stringers exist at all in a typical wooden deck, which afaik is essentially made of transversal beams with longitudinal planks on top, concurrent to the overall strength.
Usually there are also plywood panels in between, but they aren't a structural component.

 

[petem]

Thanks for the terminology review.
I suppose that the same position is the reason why I remembered the term scupper...

Also a verb meaning "sink (a ship or its crew) deliberately" or informally "prevent from working or succeeding".

I don't know the EN for a trincarino. It might just be called the "stringer level with the deck".

According to Google, "trincarino" translates to "gunwale" which doesn't sound right as per MapisM.

 

[jfm]

Good point, you are of course correct.
I didn't think that in BA the walkarounds are aligned with the cockpit level, and probably also the external step is aligned with the internal one in the saloon - is that right, B?
The construction I mentioned before is typical of boats where the internal floor is below the walkaround level.
As it is in my old boat, and in most others smaller than BA - say up to 60 feet or so.
Regardless, my previous warning still stands, obviously.

Thanks for the terminology review.
I suppose that the same position is the reason why I remembered the term scupper...
Stringer level with the deck does convey the idea, but fwiw "trincarino" is specifically used for the most external course of planks, not for any deck stringers.
Actually, coming to think of it, I don't think that stringers exist at all in a typical wooden deck, which afaik is essentially made of transversal beams with longitudinal planks on top, concurrent to the overall strength.
Usually there are also plywood panels in between, but they aren't a structural component.

Yep to all that. However, on BA the deck planks seem not to be able to have a trincarino because they're straight. (And, btw, ,the plywood is for sure structural). The only continuous bit of wood that might be a trincarino on BA would have to be a stringer type bit of wood. No worries though - I doubt the jargon can fit perfectly to every possible way to construct a boat, so we should be allowed to approximate!
If a trincarino must be the outer deck plank, I don't think there is an EN term, but I'd be happy to be corrected

@ Pete, I agree, though I wonder if scupper has got confused with scuttle, over the years in dictionaries/common use. I mean, scupper can mean to wreck a plan (a cancelled flight would scupper a weekend away) but if specifically you want to sink a ship by flooding then I think it is more correct to scuttle it. No big deal anyway!

 

[Bajansailor]

The outermost deck plank is usually called a 'covering board' - some interesting examples in this post on the Wooden Boat Forum.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthr...ional-Split-Level-Deck-Construction-Question&

 

[petem]

@ Pete, I agree, though I wonder if scupper has got confused with scuttle, over the years in dictionaries/common use. I mean, scupper can mean to wreck a plan (a cancelled flight would scupper a weekend away) but if specifically you want to sink a ship by flooding then I think it is more correct to scuttle it. No big deal anyway!

I agree. I carried out a straw poll at lunch and asked 5 colleagues if you would scupper or scuttle a ship. Four said scuttle and one said scupper.

But thinking about it, the purpose of a scupper is to prevent sinking so wouldn't it be more logical to say "a cancelled flight would scuttle a weekend away"! More nitpickery for MapisM's info here - http://throwgrammarfromthetrain.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/scuppered-or-scuttled.html.

 

[BartW]

On blue angel I doubt there are any short beams under the walkarouns in the way you describe. They will nearly all be long, full width, e.g. to support the saloon floor. Remember on BA the beams hold the weight of BA's plywood superstructure, not vice versa.
.

actually the only position where the "beams" are full width is under the cockpit floor,
everywhere else, there are short beams,
the walkarounds and the cockpit are one step lower then the rooms inside, (saloon galley..)

some time ago, we have opened the ceiling in one side cabin for a leak above the porthole,
and then I could see that the walkarounds sort of “hang” between the superstructure and the hull.

I guess that there must be some supporting pillars for the superstructure, hidden in the cabin walls ,
( those that were missing in the engine room remember)

in these pics is you can see these lower walkarounds

in the engine room (the part where the brass pipes are sitting against)



master cabin



side cabins

 

[BartW]

The outermost deck plank is usually called a 'covering board' - some interesting examples in this post on the Wooden Boat Forum.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthr...ional-Split-Level-Deck-Construction-Question&

indeed interesting,
I guess that the construction of the side deck's on BA is fairly similar like the drawing in post #6 in the link above,
(soon to be investgated in detail)

 

[MapisM]

Yep to all that. However, on BA the deck planks seem not to be able to have a trincarino because they're straight. (And, btw, the plywood is for sure structural). The only continuous bit of wood that might be a trincarino on BA would have to be a stringer type bit of wood. No worries though - I doubt the jargon can fit perfectly to every possible way to construct a boat, so we should be allowed to approximate!
If a trincarino must be the outer deck plank, I don't think there is an EN term, but I'd be happy to be corrected

Well, when I said that the trinc (for typing economy... ) is the outer deck plank, I was just trying to explain what I meant.
The trinc function is actually different and more complex, compared to all other planks.
In fact, it's much larger, thicker, has a different shape, and often it's also made with a different type of wood.
Besides, while the trinc necessarily follows the curved hull shape, its function remains exactly the same regardless of whether the teak planks are also curved or straight.
Just as an example, in the pic below of my old lady, the trinc is the large curved plank painted in white, at the base of the bulwark.

That said, I fully agree that covering each and every alternative possibilities in boatbuilding is a mission impossible.
In the specific case of BA, one thing I never realized before is that the GRP mould is a bit higher than the deck level. Therefore, the trinc (if the name still makes sense - I'm not sure about that even in IT! ) is more akin to the plank placed above the top border of the GRP mould, as visible in the pic below, and its function is obviously very different compared to traditional all-wood construction. Actually much less critical, from a structural standpoint.
Apropos, why do you say that the plywood between beams and teak planks is surely structural in BA?
Not saying it can't be, but surely it isn't in a traditional timber deck (which might as well have the teak planks screwed on beams directly, without anything at all in between).

Anyway, based also on the latest further explanations posted by BartW, I must say that Canados indeed must have invested a huge amount of thoughts and efforts in this intermediate (so to speak) construction technique, when it was already clear that, for cost reasons, the future would have been all GRP.
Talk about a bygone boatbuilding era...!

 

[MapisM]

actually the only position where the "beams" are full width is under the cockpit floor,
everywhere else, there are short beams

Thanks for the clarification B, that's a very interesting insight of bygone boatbuilding techniques, as I said.
Just for the records (and it doesn't really matter, anyway), I guess you forgot also the bow on top of the cockpit, for full width beams.
I mean, the first part of the bow, from the anchor roller up to where the superstructure begins.
Or is there any other unusual construction detail which I'm missing?

 

[BartW]

Thanks for the clarification B, that's a very interesting insight of bygone boatbuilding techniques, as I said.
Just for the records (and it doesn't really matter, anyway), I guess you forgot also the bow on top of the cockpit, for full width beams.
I mean, the first part of the bow, from the anchor roller up to where the superstructure begins.
Or is there any other unusual construction detail which I'm missing?

yes you're right on the bow, and the first part of the crew cabin, (level width the crew cabin door)
these beams are also full width,

further in the crew cabin, and the vip cabin, the ceiling is higher / goes up in that bow bed construction ....

 

[BartW]

.
In the specific case of BA, one thing I never realized before is that the GRP mould is a bit higher than the deck level. Therefore, the trinc (if the name still makes sense - I'm not sure about that even in IT! ) is more akin to the plank placed above the top border of the GRP mould, ]

keep in mind that there is a step, halfway the side decks,
and this trinc is level with the deck, forward from that step,
as you can see in the pic below, the trinc is below that new horizontal wooden element for the bulwark..



this “trinc” looks as a remain from former C70 wood versions, (exactly in that function of the trinc)
on the outside, the rubrail covers this trinc , and runs over the total length of the boat / hull.

Therefor,
In front of the side deck step, scubbers go over the trinc / rubrail
Further backwards from the step, scubbers are 10cm below the trinc / rubrail

 

[BartW]

now that you have sold her, this magnificent photo must bring you some sadness MapisM, !?
I remember the day's that I first posted here on this forum,
your avatar pic was a side view of the bow from this old lady,
and I was deeply impressed with her, that was a real ship with character

must be a relieve that she's in good hands,
will she stay in Carloforte ?

 

[BartW]

Was in the yard today for inspection of the work,
I’m very pleased with what I saw today,

The gunwale will be almost completely new, all with solid hardwood frame



All this wood will be treated with EPex,
And premade GRP wall panels (Hurray !!!) will be glued on this new frame.
Here they show some of these premade panels, with the corresponding gelcoat on one side.





The old teak on the deck will be sanded away, until bare plywood, and bad places will be replaced,
So far they discovered 2 minor bad places around the side deck steps (see earlier pics)

Then the ply deck gets epex treatment, and just in the corners where the vertical walls mate with the deck, there might come thin glass fabric
On top of the deck will come new teak,

Here is a example of the teak they are placing on a neighbor boat,
12mm thickness, all manually cut and placed… (no cnc)
Not everybody might like the old fashion shapes but I’m ok with this especially at this price (1000e/m2 including deck repairs, etc...)
They are used to work with Sika for the caulking (Black), again I’m ok with that.

 

[MapisM]

Amazingly extensive rebuild, B.
And the workers smiles are very reassuring! :encouragement:

Just in case they didn't already tell you at the yard, Joachim Murat, during his years as King of Naples under Napoleon empire, said of Castellabate "Ici on ne meurt pas", with reference to the quality of life in that area.
Maybe they are stuck into a time warp down there, two hundreds of years later...

 

[alt]

Bart,
Having read through the posts, I am pretty much speechless. All I can say is... RESPECT! A big project, which I wouldn't know where to start with.

BA will bring you both many years (more) of happiness and you know it's worth it. I admire your patience

Keep the pics coming, please. It's a wet, miserable winter here in Ireland and boaty pictures keep us all going! (Although in 10 day's we're gone to SE Asia for a few months.... usual annual migration to warmer climates)

 

[longjohnsilver]

Bart, great work, I'd be quaking in my boots seeing most of your recent pics! From the smiles on the faces of your workers I would have confidence in them doing a good job. What they are doing looks amazing!!

 

[BartW]

This is the last badge of pics I got from the yard, some day’s ago,
















They started producing the GRP panels, and put them in place for checking dims and fitting,
They won’t be fixed until the deck floor is rebuild, and all internal framing is treated with epoxy.


















The yard is now on holiday until beginning of January



Here is a engineering - design question;

This yard and also a few other yards I spoke with, suggested to make the new gunwale completely water tight again,
I’m very surprised with that, as the lack of ventilation was the cause of the bad state of this construction. (rotting plywood and frames)

Now,
the outside panels are made from GRP, and framing inside is made from mahony, treated with epoxy,
so there will be little risc for rotting wood, but moisture inside might create mould

Would you close that volume again water tight,
Or would you allow for ventilation?

We could make small ventilation slots, as before, my previous solution,





possibly closed with custom made small white painted grills would look better,

Or,

no slots in the grp panels,
and limit ourselves / plan so far is:

Make sure there are vertical openings in the horizontal beam, in each gunwale segment,
and air can get in – out the cavity on deck level, via the 4 scubbers, on each side of the boat.



what would the respected panel on here advice ?

 

[vas]

my gut feeling would be to have ventilation on each panel/section Bart.
otoh, without the vents it's probably going to be another 20yrs before you have any probs...

your call!

V.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Would you close that volume again water tight,
Or would you allow for ventilation?

Not sure it would make much difference either way because you can never make the enclosure completely air tight and it is moist air that is going to cause future rot. I think I'd go with whatever the yard recommends because as vas says, the next time you need to replace these panels, you'll probably be too old to care