Big fractional rig with running stays

[Refueler]

So I spoke to the owner and it turns out the original rig was masthead then they added an extra 3m of mast (another owner), longer boom to make it into a racing boat. So I expect the rig is not that bendy and therefore strong enough even without running stays unless going all out in a blow.
The boat you found for sale is the actual boat I am interested in. It ticks a lot of boxes. I suppose the other concerning factor is the teak deck which is not ideal in tropical or Mediterranean weather.

Given the weight - I can understand the modification ... but TBH .... is it worth doing such to a boat like that ?? Nothing against the boat at all ... but there are plenty of boats designed for racing that would do the job better ..

 

[Refueler]

And why is a fractional rig more suited for the Baltic?

Just his misdirection !!

 

[tchierici]

Given the weight - I can understand the modification ... but TBH .... is it worth doing such to a boat like that ?? Nothing against the boat at all ... but there are plenty of boats designed for racing that would do the job better ..

It’s an interesting observation. I suppose they thought the boat was already capable racer and tried to get her to perform better and realised that she’s still an heavy boat. Maybe that’s why they sold her haha

 

[Daydream believer]

All boats 'corkscrew' in following seas ... but some are worse than others ... and they tend be the wide-arse types.

You have made comments to that effect twice now in the above thread. I am surprised at it because I was under the impression that wide sterned boats generally had good down wind performance. (You cleary have some biase when you sneer at "Bendytoys")
On the other hand I have sailed boats from 25-45 ft with narrow sterns that have rolled all over the place & been absolutely hopeless down wind.
My own 31 ft boat is not particularly wide in the stern compared to later models. However, it is a lot more so than many older designs, having 2 berths & heads in the stern along with excellent locker space. I am more than pleased with its down wind handling. Except, that is, in a short quartering sea (2.5M+) & F6+ wind where I am pushing far too hard.
Settle it down & no problem
Even early boats like the Stephen Jones Hustlers (SJ30 & 32 etc) that had wide runs aft & I have spoken to owners, that say they ran as if on rails. Totally different to the pinched end designs of the time, on the UFOs etc. which would throw one out of the cockpit if one did not hold on.
So what do other forumites with experience of modern wide sterned boats say. Is this just a biased comment or a fair one?

 

[Concerto]

Having said that such boats are cruised all round Europe, and there is actually a sister ship albeit original masthead for sale in Preveza. yachtworld.com/yacht/1985-gambler-35-9074783/

Unless I am mistaken, this boat looks as though it has runners fitted as well. Look at the photos and you will see they are fitted.

 

[tchierici]

Unless I am mistaken, this boat looks as though it has runners fitted as well. Look at the photos and you will see they are fitted.

Yes that’s already been discussed earlier in my post (see page 1)

 

[Concerto]

Yes that’s already been discussed earlier in my post (see page 1)

But the boat linked by Tranona is a masthead, not a fractional rig. So why does she have runners?

 

[tchierici]

I might just stick with my current boat. A Stephen Jones Hustler 33. Good old IOR boat that weighs 4t and runs like a train on rails downwind. Also fractional rigged but fixed stays and swept back. She’ll be flying in the trade winds.

 

[tchierici]

But the boat linked by Tranona is a masthead, not a fractional rig. So why does she have runners?

Because it’s been modified to be a fractional rig. It would have been masthead originally

 

[dunedin]

And why is a fractional rig more suited for the Baltic?

It was “Baltic etc” - ie an example, not exclusively the Baltic. But I used that example as you said it is a Swedish design.
But it is relevant example, as Baltic sailing is rarely like traditional blue water “trade winds sailing” which you said was your intention.
In the Baltic (and some other places) it is normal to do short hops between harbours. The wind can often be quite light, needing a powerful rig, and tacking upwind is more common. And with so many harbours, it is rare to be caught out at sea in a severe storm. Hence a tall powerful fractional rig suits these waters (As it would the Med, or the Solent). Indeed from Tranona’s link this may be a one off / custom rig added to this boat.
The trade winds sailing tends to be sailing for much longer periods, with much more downwind and little tacking, and certainly in the Atlantic often of good strength. And being blue water more likely to need to weather a more severe storm.
That was my basis.

 

[oldbloke]

You have made comments to that effect twice now in the above thread. I am surprised at it because I was under the impression that wide sterned boats generally had good down wind performance. (You cleary have some biase when you sneer at "Bendytoys")
On the other hand I have sailed boats from 25-45 ft with narrow sterns that have rolled all over the place & been absolutely hopeless down wind.
My own 31 ft boat is not particularly wide in the stern compared to later models. However, it is a lot more so than many older designs, having 2 berths & heads in the stern along with excellent locker space. I am more than pleased with its down wind handling. Except, that is, in a short quartering sea (2.5M+) & F6+ wind where I am pushing far too hard.
Settle it down & no problem
Even early boats like the Stephen Jones Hustlers (SJ30 & 32 etc) that had wide runs aft & I have spoken to owners, that say they ran as if on rails. Totally different to the pinched end designs of the time, on the UFOs etc. which would throw one out of the cockpit if one did not hold on.
So what do other forumites with experience of modern wide sterned boats say. Is this just a biased comment or a fair one?

I'm sure there are a number of factors that affect how a wide sterned boat is affected by waves off wind, but I suspect the important one is how well she surfs. Modern racing boats I have been on just pick up and go, nice and straight and easy. Whereas a Beneteau 36i towing a small rib tender down the windwardside of Greneda was almost uncontrollable

 

[dunedin]

So I spoke to the owner and it turns out the original rig was masthead then they added an extra 3m of mast (another owner), longer boom to make it into a racing boat. So I expect the rig is not that bendy and therefore strong enough even without running stays unless going all out in a blow.
The boat you found for sale is the actual boat I am interested in. It ticks a lot of boxes. I suppose the other concerning factor is the teak deck which is not ideal in tropical or Mediterranean weather.

Be careful there - a bigger rig added for (probably inshore) racing would ring warning bells for me. A 3m mast height extension is pretty huge on a boat of that size. And certainly your statement “so I expect the rig is not that bendy” is the opposite of what I would assume - with a bigger rig a racer would likely want the mast to be bendy so that the backstay can be pulled on to bend the mast to flatten the sail, and with seven more bend on to spill excess power in the gusts.
Also when applying for insurance you need to answer the question “has the boat been modified?” Many insurers might be reluctant to insure a rig that is 3m bigger and different from the standard.
Personally I like a fast boat, and enjoy tweaking the rig. But with that customised /big rig it looks great fun racing in sheltered waters, but not the ideal boat for cruising offshore - IMHO.

 

[Refueler]

You have made comments to that effect twice now in the above thread. I am surprised at it because I was under the impression that wide sterned boats generally had good down wind performance. (You cleary have some biase when you sneer at "Bendytoys")
On the other hand I have sailed boats from 25-45 ft with narrow sterns that have rolled all over the place & been absolutely hopeless down wind.
My own 31 ft boat is not particularly wide in the stern compared to later models. However, it is a lot more so than many older designs, having 2 berths & heads in the stern along with excellent locker space. I am more than pleased with its down wind handling. Except, that is, in a short quartering sea (2.5M+) & F6+ wind where I am pushing far too hard.
Settle it down & no problem
Even early boats like the Stephen Jones Hustlers (SJ30 & 32 etc) that had wide runs aft & I have spoken to owners, that say they ran as if on rails. Totally different to the pinched end designs of the time, on the UFOs etc. which would throw one out of the cockpit if one did not hold on.
So what do other forumites with experience of modern wide sterned boats say. Is this just a biased comment or a fair one?

I can only go on what owners I know and talk to say - AND my own experience ....

The nickname 'Bendytoys' is not my creation .. its actually a term that was quite common when I sailed UK. At least in areas I frequented ...

Are you saying that the Couple who spoke of their boat are wrong ?

The submerged vs at waterline areas have a great effect on 'corkscrewing' and the design of the transom can add or reduce the effects. The best boat for downwind I have ever sailed - was in Tallinn ... a 12m designed for Channel and Offshore Racing ... sadly I cannot remermber the brand - only the name of the boat : St V ..... her transom was a compromise of wide - but with more in water area than others similar size / wide stern. Basically this meant that following seas were less likely to get UNDER and lift - twist the stern ... In looks - she resembled closely a Barracuda .. which was known to surf !!

My Conq38 so far has shown a similar trait - albeit a not wide stern .... but of course ALL boats will corkscrew - its the amount that is the factor.

 

[KevinV]

I'm not at all clear on all this downwind sailing that everyone is worrying about. It's a few horrible weeks downwind going across to the Caribbean, after which you're mostly reaching to get about. I'd always buy the best windward performance you can get - you're going to need it if you want to to make any way east again - upwind and against the current, swell and waves (unless you're willing to surrender to "motorsailing").

More important than exactly what rig you have is the ability to reef fast, then it really doesn't matter how much bare stick you have up there. The squals can be quite fruity and always seem to aim straight for you.

Comfort at anchor has to be high on the list too - shade and air. The longer boom may be a bonus for achieving this.

 

[Refueler]

I'm not at all clear on all this downwind sailing that everyone is worrying about. It's a few horrible weeks downwind going across to the Caribbean, after which you're mostly reaching to get about. I'd always buy the best windward performance you can get - you're going to need it if you want to to make any way east again - upwind and against the current, swell and waves (unless you're willing to surrender to "motorsailing").

More important than exactly what rig you have is the ability to reef fast, then it really doesn't matter how much bare stick you have up there. The squals can be quite fruity and always seem to aim straight for you.

Comfort at anchor has to be high on the list too - shade and air. The longer boom may be a bonus for achieving this.

If you were to sail for protracted period with a bad downwind boat that corkscrews madly - you may change your opinion !!

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm sure there are a number of factors that affect how a wide sterned boat is affected by waves off wind, but I suspect the important one is how well she surfs. Modern racing boats I have been on just pick up and go, nice and straight and easy. Whereas a Beneteau 36i towing a small rib tender down the windwardside of Greneda was almost uncontrollable

A heavily loaded cruising boat will be far less likely to surf, in the same way a lightly loaded race boat does.

 

[KevinV]

If you were to sail for protracted period with a bad downwind boat that corkscrews madly - you may change your opinion !!

Been there, done that. It's horrible, but it just wouldn't be (anywhere near) top of my list of priorities - it's just the crossing, after which the sailing and living is very different. I would prioritise the latter as being more pertinent to enjoying the experience as a whole.

 

[Ceirwan]

But is it extra security? The fact they are there suggests that they are needed. If one made a mistake & missed setting them up in a nasty gybe etc one could be in danger of damaging the mast. To me that means that they REDUCE security

I get your point, and its not my preferred rig.
But I would say that when they are on then its extra security, as well as the backstay at the mast head, you also have a backstay directly opposing the forestay, and compared to swept back spreaders say on a conventional fractional rig, the angle is much fairer, so you can achieve the same stability with less tension.

You'd be unlikely to down a mast if you forgot to put them on, by the time conditions get serous & you're reefed down, then you can leave them on permanently.
My main gripe with them is that they are a royal PITA to deal with.

 

[flaming]

I think a lot of the negativity on runners is based on a slight misunderstanding of the difference between running backstays and check stays.

Runners are generally an upwind rig tuning tool on fractional rigs that have a large top mast about the forestay, coupled with minimal spreader sweep and prebend. The runner is primarily there to tension against the forestay to give a straighter forestay for better pointing in heavy airs. It would also be used in heavy airs downwind as security, but you'd be unlikely to lose the rig not having them on in any circumstances where you had a full main, and when reefed below the level of the forestay you can leave them both on all the time anyway.

Checkstays are generally found on masthead rigs where the designer has wanted to reduce the size of the section to save weight, and the checks are needed to oppose an inner forestay and stop the mast panting, or even inverting. Thus they are a lot lower than runners, and a bigger issue to manage with a reefed mainsail. Mess them up in a bit of breeze and bye bye rig... Some very spindly early fractional rigs had them too, but to be honest most of those rigs will have fallen down and been replaced with something more sensible by now....

These days prebend and swept spreaders have largely eliminated the need for runners or checks, though they have been making a little bit of a reappearance with the advent of code sails and the need to get luff tension in them when they are flown not from the top of the mast. Deflectors have started appearing which pull the masthead backstay down to the level of the forestay to get the tension to apply directly where it's wanted.

 

[tchierici]

I think a lot of the negativity on runners is based on a slight misunderstanding of the difference between running backstays and check stays.

Runners are generally an upwind rig tuning tool on fractional rigs that have a large top mast about the forestay, coupled with minimal spreader sweep and prebend. The runner is primarily there to tension against the forestay to give a straighter forestay for better pointing in heavy airs. It would also be used in heavy airs downwind as security, but you'd be unlikely to lose the rig not having them on in any circumstances where you had a full main, and when reefed below the level of the forestay you can leave them both on all the time anyway.

Checkstays are generally found on masthead rigs where the designer has wanted to reduce the size of the section to save weight, and the checks are needed to oppose an inner forestay and stop the mast panting, or even inverting. Thus they are a lot lower than runners, and a bigger issue to manage with a reefed mainsail. Mess them up in a bit of breeze and bye bye rig... Some very spindly early fractional rigs had them too, but to be honest most of those rigs will have fallen down and been replaced with something more sensible by now....

These days prebend and swept spreaders have largely eliminated the need for runners or checks, though they have been making a little bit of a reappearance with the advent of code sails and the need to get luff tension in them when they are flown not from the top of the mast. Deflectors have started appearing which pull the masthead backstay down to the level of the forestay to get the tension to apply directly where it's wanted.

That's interesting and useful, thanks! So, considering that:
1. The rig was originally a masthead (with runners already there) then at some stage they added an extra section at the top to make it into fractional.
2. The boat in question (as shown in the picture) has a fixed backstay; two runners starting from the top of the mast level with the forestay and two lower runners starting from halfway between the first and second spreader.

Can we conclude this post by saying that both sets of runners are not integral to the solidity of the rig whatever the wind/sea conditions and that they are only there to add extra support to the rig going upwind in rough conditions and also to enable pointing higher or performance tuning?

I am told by the owner that he sailed the boat in question single hand from Sweden to Greece via the Shetlands in whatever conditions including a F8 with 6m+ waves without problems. I can only assume the rig is strong enough.