Big fractional rig with running stays

[flaming]

Can we conclude this post by saying that both sets of runners are not integral to the solidity of the rig whatever the wind/sea conditions and that they are only there to add extra support to the rig going upwind in rough conditions and also to enable pointing higher or performance tuning?
.

From my desk based on that photo?

No I can't conclude that, especially given that the boat seems to have been modified. However, the phrase "two lower runners starting from halfway between the first and second spreader" makes me think they are not runners but check stays. And that really would make them integral to the security of the rig, as they are probably there to stop the rig from panting. Especially given that you're telling me that the masthead version already had runners. (Which would have been checkstays anyway).

What you can say about the boat and its history is that it seems like the rig is up to the job. What you cannot say is if you can take shortcuts in using all of the tools that it has available.

 

[tchierici]

From my desk based on that photo?

No I can't conclude that, especially given that the boat seems to have been modified. However, the phrase "two lower runners starting from halfway between the first and second spreader" makes me think they are not runners but check stays. And that really would make them integral to the security of the rig, as they are probably there to stop the rig from panting. Especially given that you're telling me that the masthead version already had runners. (Which would have been checkstays anyway).

What you can say about the boat and its history is that it seems like the rig is up to the job. What you cannot say is if you can take shortcuts in using all of the tools that it has available.

Great thank you! That's all I needed to know.

 

[dunedin]

And you need to check that you can get insurance for your trip with a modified rig. Insurance nowadays can be difficult enough for short handed blue water cruising without having to advise of a modification adding 3m to the rig. This could tip you into the third party only category ?

 

[Refueler]

And you need to check that you can get insurance for your trip with a modified rig. Insurance nowadays can be difficult enough for short handed blue water cruising without having to advise of a modification adding 3m to the rig. This could tip you into the third party only category ?

'Never been asked if rig is modified or anything else on a boat TBH

I've just fully insured my 38 ... only question about rig was : Approx sq.m of sail area. When I quoted what I think it is compared what data sheet says ... mine more - no comment at all from them.

 

[Refueler]

Can I be honest and say that I am getting increasingly thoughtful about the trig as quoted ..... TBH - something seems not quite right.

Without actually seeing the boat now - I am reluctant to agree with it ... and I especially would be more concerned about DOWNWIND rather than UPWIND ..... with this setup. But that's me.

There are many boats out there ... I spent time looking at boats and had that WOW - YES feeling when I got to right one for ME. Others - I just had niggling questions in mind ... and I know that if I had OP's questions - I would not feel easy about going for it ... always that niggle in back of mind ... Sorry but I'm fast coming to conclusion that OP should walk away from it ..

 

[flaming]

Can I be honest and say that I am getting increasingly thoughtful about the trig as quoted ..... TBH - something seems not quite right.

Without actually seeing the boat now - I am reluctant to agree with it ... and I especially would be more concerned about DOWNWIND rather than UPWIND ..... with this setup. But that's me.

Meh...

Depends on what the additional topmast has actually been used for. On the face of it, with runners taken to the original masthead position, then whatever rig security existed at that point is still there when the runners are on, the only extra is supported by its own backstay, and we can probably safely assume that any fresh conditions will bring the main below the forestay anyway, when handling runners really isn't an issue.

What would intrigue me more is the behaviour of the rig upwind, as I'm not sure how your would get the right bend profile in the full stick when the original was designed to end at the top of the forestay. Assuming that this was actually an extension of the original tube, rather than a re-rigging with a longer tube but not wanting to change the chainplates etc, then getting the bend right over the join would be quite some task.

The more I think about it, the more I think those checkstays are critical to the setup of the rig, and tuning that sort of thing is way outside of my experience.

 

[Refueler]

If as OP says - previous just added 3m to the original mast - then it would be possible that original rigging is still there. If so - then I would be tempted to remove the 3m and revert her back to design ..

Problem is though - if that really is a 3m addition ... then means original masthead will be compromised by rivet holes / sleeve etc.

Was the original mast a single spreader affair - typical of such boat size ... and second set added to further secure addition ??

 

[flaming]

If as OP says - previous just added 3m to the original mast - then it would be possible that original rigging is still there. If so - then I would be tempted to remove the 3m and revert her back to design ..

Problem is though - if that really is a 3m addition ... then means original masthead will be compromised by rivet holes / sleeve etc.

Was the original mast a single spreader affair - typical of such boat size ... and second set added to further secure addition ??

Without seeing the boat....

And even then I've heard enough in this thread that if the rest of the boat ticked all the right boxes I'd be taking a rigger with me to view it.

 

[dunedin]

'Never been asked if rig is modified or anything else on a boat TBH

I've just fully insured my 38 ... only question about rig was : Approx sq.m of sail area. When I quoted what I think it is compared what data sheet says ... mine more - no comment at all from them.

Whether any material modifications have been made is a standard question on most insurance policy applications I have seen - but more importantly, there is almost always a standard catch all that you must disclose anything that might be relevant to the insured risk, and a non standard 3m taller rig would almost certainly be considered relevant by the insurer in the event of a rig claim.

 

[Refueler]

Whether any material modifications have been made is a standard question on most insurance policy applications I have seen - but more importantly, there is almost always a standard catch all that you must disclose anything that might be relevant to the insured risk, and a non standard 3m taller rig would almost certainly be considered relevant by the insurer in the event of a rig claim.

I do not disagree with your overall comment about claim and how Insurers duck out of claims ... but I still maintain that in all the years of UK and EU boat insurance - I have never been asked for such ....

 

[Refueler]

My question is :

How comfortable in own mind would you be after all those ??'s

I follow the Tick boxes as well ... but those boxes also have priority ratings and whether I can live with it ......

 

[14K478]

This is the way to do it. A photo by John Green of my favourite big boat, the Mariquita.

Note the lee runner (checkstay in modern parlance) and the lee preventer (backstay in modern parlance) are both set up and she can tack on a sixpence.

 

[dunedin]

This is the way to do it. A photo by John Green of my favourite big boat, the Mariquita.

Note the lee runner (checkstay in modern parlance) and the lee preventer (backstay in modern parlance) are both set up and she can tack on a sixpence……

……. with her usual race crew of 30 or so

Lovely boat that have seen often - sometimes off Fairlie where she was built. But not an average blue water cruising boat!

 

[Snowgoose-1]

This is the way to do it. A photo by John Green of my favourite big boat, the Mariquita.

Note the lee runner (checkstay in modern parlance) and the lee preventer (backstay in modern parlance) are both set up and she can tack on a sixpence.View attachment 168041

That's pretty.
With two crew, would only take about a day to get onto port tack.

 

[14K478]

That's pretty.
With two crew, would only take about a day to get onto port tack.

The lee runner is set up. Putting a straight edge on the picture, it's taut. The lee preventer may have been eased a tad, as there is a slight curve in it, but not much. I think she can tack on a sixpence, and considering the speed with which she is thundering towards the Beaulieu River in the picture, I fancy she did just that.

I used to reckon I could tack an original Bristol Channel pilot cutter single handed, including swapping the runners and the topping lifts, in five minutes. But I was younger and fitter then.

 

[dunedin]

That's pretty.
With two crew, would only take about a day to get onto port tack.

Two crew on a big Fife gaffer ! When racing one of them had two crew up mast at all times both to spot wind shifts and to aid the tacking - some ropes needed crew assistance mid tack half way up the rig!

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Two crew on a big Fife gaffer ! When racing one of them had two crew up mast at all times both to spot wind shifts and to aid the tacking - some ropes needed crew assistance mid tack half way up the rig!

Wow !

I remember reading about those big multi masted square riggers when they were still trying to compete against powered steamers.

Admittedly they were lightly crewed compared to days of old but taking three quarters of an hour to wear ship was not unusual.

 

[Refueler]

Wow !

I remember reading about those big multi masted square riggers when they were still trying to compete against powered steamers.

Admittedly they were lightly crewed compared to days of old but taking three quarters of an hour to wear ship was not unusual.

For incredible feats ... Thames Barges .... Two men, boy and his dog !! ... not the 'race demo' crews you see today ... the rig not only sailed the barge - but also provided derrick use if shore was without gear......

 

[doug748]

.....I used to reckon I could tack an original Bristol Channel pilot cutter single handed, including swapping the runners and the topping lifts, in five minutes. But I was younger and fitter then.

Fitter ..... but still not likely to break a rope by pulling on it, though. : =)