Big fractional rig with running stays

[14K478]

Thank you all for the very informative replies. I am talking to the owner soon to understand a bit more about this particular set up. He has singleshanded the boat from Sweden to Greece so it's not impossible. However if I need to slacken and re-tension the runners every time I tack then that's going to be a pain as I am planning to stay in the Med for the short/medium term then prep the boat for a circumnavigation within the next 7 years or so. From experience frequent tacking in confined channels around the Greek islands in lumpy seas in a Force 5 is not uncommon. So if the rig isn't a bit forgiving then I'll pass.

Whether you need to ease the runners on every tack depends on where the runners are, how well the boat points, and how full the mainsail is. On the aforementioned pre-war gaff cutter and 1975 Nicholson cutter/sloop I didn't and don't need to need to do so.

 

[Refueler]

Common on X Yachts that have runners as part of the rig. I don't know how many yachts they produced with running backstays but they were on the X79, X99 and the X 119 - a total of over 1,000 yachts and the bungee idea was used on the bulk of the builds, X99 and X119 (I've only seen one X79 - and don't recall the detail).

Jonathan

Didn't say they had not .... but its not something I've noticed ....

 

[Refueler]

I may be missing the point here, but for the last hundred years it has been normal to rig a light line from the upper runner block to a light block at the aft chainplate on each side, and back to a small cleat at the cockpit. You pull on this to get the lee runner block out of the way and stop it banging about, braining the crew and causing chafe. My pre-War Whisstocks gaff cutter had them and my 1975 Nicholson has them.

If you are short tacking you just let the lee runner go; if you are making a longer board you take the runner block forward to the shrouds. All done from the cockpit!

Sweeping statement that ......

 

[14K478]

Sweeping statement that ......

But an accurate one!

 

[Refueler]

Whether you need to ease the runners on every tack depends on where the runners are, how well the boat points, and how full the mainsail is. On the aforementioned pre-war gaff cutter and 1975 Nicholson cutter/sloop I didn't and don't need to need to do so.

Yep .... all you do is setup to suit occasion ... if you are not racing / pressing for max ... then set mainsail to be subordinate and use the foresails as your main driver ... that way you can set the runners and forget them. It will often make boat more comfortable .....

Here's mine using only genny ... she's leaving trucking along very nice ... in fact she overtook another more modern AWB who was with main and genny that is not a slow boat either ... even had boat steering herself at one time as you see !!

 

[tchierici]

OK ... basically think on this ...

The Main backstay if its like mine - goes to masthead ...

The ruinning backstays go to mast near where forestay attaches ....

The two have different jobs.

Main sets the main rake and support of mast.

Running backstays set the forestay tension by tensioning the windward one ... tack and change stays.

Here's mine with similar setup ...

Difficult to see but similar to OP's ...

The running stays of course being fastened at the fractional point on mast - mean they conflict with mainsail ... so lee has to be slacked to avoid this.

Am I removing them ? No. My boat is designed for racing and IMHO - that means designer had a reason to have them. Pain I admit ... but once you get used to them ... its not so bad !!

What boat is that in the picture?

 

[Refueler]

But an accurate one!

In your opinion. My opinion is that based on observation ... racing in past ... I cannot recall seeing such ... probably have but missed it ...

Do not take that I am against such - not the case ... in fact I can agree its good ... not so taken with unshackling and moving it fwd though.

 

[Refueler]

What boat is that in the picture?

Conqubin 38 Cruiser-Racer ..... built 1983 ... Harry Becker, Sweden. About 100 - 110 were built .... not often up for sale ...

 

[tchierici]

Conqubin 38 Cruiser-Racer ..... built 1983 ... Harry Becker, Sweden. About 100 - 110 were built .... not often up for sale ...

What is she like downwind in the rough?

 

[Refueler]

What is she like downwind in the rough?

Very good ..... she doesn't screw about like more modern wide-arse boats ...

On paper she is 11.4m LOA ... 3.0m beam ..... that narrow beam at first makes you think - blimey - she's going to be cramped inside ... but cleverly designer has made interior same as a much wider boat. But of course - the intent was to get her to cut through and accelerate ... which she does ...

Here's data site (they wanted a photo - so I uploaded mine for them ... I have no connection with text content).

Review of Conqubin 38 Cr - www.yachtdatabase.com

 

[14K478]

In your opinion. My opinion is that based on observation ... racing in past ... I cannot recall seeing such ... probably have but missed it ...

Do not take that I am against such - not the case ... in fact I can agree its good ... not so taken with unshackling and moving it fwd though.

Who's unshackling anything?

 

[blush2]

Couple of things to consider:

Bungees may be needed at the first spreader level to prevent the slack runner getting caught the wrong side of the spreader.

A slightly bigger than normal first reef that brings the top of the sail below the runners allows both runners to be tensioned and left when reefed, the sail will pass under them when tacking and they won't need adjusting.

 

[Refueler]

Who's unshackling anything?

Need a lot of spare line through the block to do this on mine >>>>>>

"if you are making a longer board you take the runner block forward to the shrouds. All done from the cockpit!"

 

[Refueler]

Couple of things to consider:

Bungees may be needed at the first spreader level to prevent the slack runner getting caught the wrong side of the spreader.

A slightly bigger than normal first reef that brings the top of the sail below the runners allows both runners to be tensioned and left when reefed, the sail will pass under them when tacking and they won't need adjusting.

Most of that already mentioned ... but good to see another who doesn't just post negative ....

 

[dunedin]

Most of that already mentioned ... but good to see another who doesn't just post negative ....

Not sure people are being negative. Fractional plus runners, probably with big tunable rig, is good for Baltic etc. Particularly with experienced crew.

Just that for trade winds a simpler masthead rig with masthead genoa and/ or spinnakers might be a better option if not yet bought a boat.

Classic horses for courses.

 

[Refueler]

Not sure people are being negative. Fractional plus runners, probably with big tunable rig, is good for Baltic etc. Particularly with experienced crew.

Just that for trade winds a simpler masthead rig with masthead genoa and/ or spinnakers might be a better option if not yet bought a boat.

Classic horses for courses.

I would say that Baltic has nothing to do with it ... I sailed many other areas before Baltic ... there are many designs from outside of Baltic which use fractional ...

I agree that for ease of mind a masthead rig can be advantageous ... as long as its a decent substantial rig ...

 

[tchierici]

Not sure people are being negative. Fractional plus runners, probably with big tunable rig, is good for Baltic etc. Particularly with experienced crew.

Just that for trade winds a simpler masthead rig with masthead genoa and/ or spinnakers might be a better option if not yet bought a boat.

Classic horses for courses.

And why is a fractional rig more suited for the Baltic?

 

[Tranona]

And why is a fractional rig more suited for the Baltic?

I think the real question to ask is why the boat has that rig when it was originally designed for a typical for the time masthead rig with small main and large genoa. It is not difficult to find advantages in terms of ease of handling with smaller foresails, greater flexibility, better windward performance for fractional over masthead but in maintaining a similar overall sail area you have ended up in this case with a tall spindly mast, which I would guess is as much as 3m taller where the runners are essential to the integrity of the rig. The downside as I suggested earlier is loss of potential foretriangle area which limits offwind sails unless you go down the spinnaker route which may not be the best thing for long distance short handed sailing.

Having said that such boats are cruised all round Europe, and there is actually a sister ship albeit original masthead for sale in Preveza. yachtworld.com/yacht/1985-gambler-35-9074783/
It is easy to overthink boat choice for long term cruising because when you look around you find people use a huge variety of designs of boats, few of which are specifically designed for that purpose. People adapt what they have or what is available where they are buying and success in the role depends as much if not more on the crew's ability to understand and use their boat effectively. There is a lot going for this type of boat, not least they are "cheap" for the level of original quality you are buying and if well cared for represent good value for money. To me the downside would be the limitations of the hull type as a load carrier compared with, say a Moody or a Westerly of similar size (which it would outperform as a sailing boat!) and suitability for living aboard in hot weather. Remember the majority of time cruising is spent stationary, either at anchor or in marinas and more modern wider beam large cockpit open(able) transom boats with good ventilation, bimini, large fuel tanks, battery banks, fridges etc are much easier to live with.

 

[tchierici]

I think the real question to ask is why the boat has that rig when it was originally designed for a typical for the time masthead rig with small main and large genoa. It is not difficult to find advantages in terms of ease of handling with smaller foresails, greater flexibility, better windward performance for fractional over masthead but in maintaining a similar overall sail area you have ended up in this case with a tall spindly mast, which I would guess is as much as 3m taller where the runners are essential to the integrity of the rig. The downside as I suggested earlier is loss of potential foretriangle area which limits offwind sails unless you go down the spinnaker route which may not be the best thing for long distance short handed sailing.

Having said that such boats are cruised all round Europe, and there is actually a sister ship albeit original masthead for sale in Preveza. yachtworld.com/yacht/1985-gambler-35-9074783/
It is easy to overthink boat choice for long term cruising because when you look around you find people use a huge variety of designs of boats, few of which are specifically designed for that purpose. People adapt what they have or what is available where they are buying and success in the role depends as much if not more on the crew's ability to understand and use their boat effectively. There is a lot going for this type of boat, not least they are "cheap" for the level of original quality you are buying and if well cared for represent good value for money. To me the downside would be the limitations of the hull type as a load carrier compared with, say a Moody or a Westerly of similar size (which it would outperform as a sailing boat!) and suitability for living aboard in hot weather. Remember the majority of time cruising is spent stationary, either at anchor or in marinas and more modern wider beam large cockpit open(able) transom boats with good ventilation, bimini, large fuel tanks, battery banks, fridges etc are much easier to live with.

So I spoke to the owner and it turns out the original rig was masthead then they added an extra 3m of mast (another owner), longer boom to make it into a racing boat. So I expect the rig is not that bendy and therefore strong enough even without running stays unless going all out in a blow.
The boat you found for sale is the actual boat I am interested in. It ticks a lot of boxes. I suppose the other concerning factor is the teak deck which is not ideal in tropical or Mediterranean weather.

 

[Refueler]

mmmmm "Remember the majority of time cruising is spent stationary, either at anchor or in marinas and more modern wider beam large cockpit open(able) transom boats with good ventilation, bimini, large fuel tanks, battery banks, fridges etc are much easier to live with."

Its funny you say that ....

Look at the photo and to the left - you see two modern wide-arse boats ... Bendytoy ... sorry Beneteau !! and another.

My old Conq is way back in the distance ...

We were chatting on the pontoon ..Sasha busy catching a bucketful of Perch .... when a Couple came to talk to us. Guy asked when we bought the C38 ... as he had looked her over more than 3 months earlier .... he wanted it - but Wife - she admitted it there - wanted a more 'family caravan' style. They went on to say that they then bought the Bene that you see in the photo.
Me ? I can live with Bene .. Jeanneau ... for me reputable boats ... but was interesting that he started talking about that wide-arse screwing about in following seas ... such that Wife said she was not so happy ... great accommodation - but sickening motion ...
All boats 'corkscrew' in following seas ... but some are worse than others ... and they tend be the wide-arse types.