Big fractional rig with running stays

[tchierici]

I’ve seen this boat for sale and I’m interested but a bit concerned about the complexity of the rig. See picture.
What do people think about this fractional rig? The boat has a big ballast and fairly heavy displacement at 6.5t (35ft boat). 45% ballast to displacement ratio.
From what I can see it has two running back stays and two additional side running stays. The aim is to take the boat to the Caribbean and Pacific. I’ll be shorthanded.

 

[Ceirwan]

Its not easy to see in the pics, but it looks like the sprreaders have minimal sweep aft.

This generally means that you need to keep the running backstays on to keep the mast standing & for forestay tension.
If the boom is able to clear them (and the roach of the main) then you can probably set & forget while cruising.

If they don't clear, then every time you tack or gybe, you will have to release one runner & tension the other.

 

[Bobc]

The spreaders are swept back, so no real need for running backstays. Just remove them and fit a single fixed backstay.

You may how to have the leech of the main re-cur though to clear the backstay if it has a big roach.

 

[tchierici]

Actually I just spotted ( from the picture of the whole boat) that the back stay is fixed (but it splits in two at the bottom) and there are two additional running stays to strengthen the rig while going to wind in a blow i assume.

 

[Concerto]

You would certainly need to use the running backstay whilst beating to tension the forestay, but should be able to sail at other points without tensioning them. You might need some tension in heavy airs downwind to steady the mast, but a reefed mainsail should cause no problems to gybe.

Luckily my ¾ rigged Fulmar has swept back spreaders, so no need for running backstays. The downside is greater wear on the mainsail whilst running from rubbing on the spreaders.

Your best bet would be to vvisit the boat and chat with the owner.

 

[Tranona]

That is a big racy rig for serious racing - Scandinavian? Typical IOR boat with high ballast ratio because the keel will probably be a bit pointy and the ballast high up. Look at the photos of racing in that era and note how many crew on the rail to keep the boat upright as the rating rule penalised stability. Probably not first choice for ocean cruising, particularly if short handed.

Do you know the model and have you looked up the stats on Sailboatdata?

 

[tchierici]

You would certainly need to use the running backstay whilst beating to tension the forestay, but should be able to sail at other points without tensioning them. You might need some tension in heavy airs downwind to steady the mast, but a reefed mainsail should cause no problems to gybe.

Luckily my ¾ rigged Fulmar has swept back spreaders, so no need for running backstays. The downside is greater wear on the mainsail whilst running from rubbing on the spreaders.

Your best bet would be to vvisit the boat and chat with the owner.

Yes. On my Huster SJ I have a similar set up, 7/8 fractional swept back spreaders and fixed back stay and I never touch anything. The mast shows no pumping at all whatsoever in any conditions.

 

[srm]

Not my choice for offshore/ocean short handed. My rig has double standing backstays and standing intermediate stays (rather than runners) for the staysail.
However, all sorts of rigs and hulls have made successful (and otherwise) ocean passages. It depends on how hard the crew want to work and how fast they want to go.

 

[tchierici]

As

That is a big racy rig for serious racing - Scandinavian? Typical IOR boat with high ballast ratio because the keel will probably be a bit pointy and the ballast high up. Look at the photos of racing in that era and note how many crew on the rail to keep the boat upright as the rating rule penalised stability. Probably not first choice for ocean cruising, particularly if short handed.

Do you know the model and have you looked up the stats on Sailboatdata?

it’s a Swedish New Gambler 35 but the sailboat data site reports it as masthead rigged. It’s a fairly heavy boat though so it shouldn’t need crew hanging over the side given a reduced sail plan as things get lively.

 

[dunedin]

I’ve seen this boat for sale and I’m interested but a bit concerned about the complexity of the rig. See picture.
What do people think about this fractional rig? The boat has a big ballast and fairly heavy displacement at 6.5t (35ft boat). 45% ballast to displacement ratio.
From what I can see it has two running back stays and two additional side running stays. The aim is to take the boat to the Caribbean and Pacific. I’ll be shorthanded.

Certainly could do the voyage, but for a trade winds blue water cruise I wouldn’t choose that one. A simpler masthead rig with big genoa would be better for long downwind sailing.

 

[Tranona]

As

it’s a Swedish New Gambler 35 but the sailboat data site reports it as masthead rigged. It’s a fairly heavy boat though so it shouldn’t need crew hanging over the side given a reduced sail plan as things get lively.

Its heavy because it needs the 3 tons of lead to keep it upright. Fine ends and a fat middle plus a rig that is not easy to arrange decent bullet proof off wind sails not a good basis for ocean sailing. Expect it will be rolly downwind as well as many of the type were. A mast head rig would be better as you can reduce sail area and achieve a better sailplan more easily..

 

[doug748]

Looks a nice boat. It seems to have a backstay, what I take to be running backstays at the quarters plus some tackles taken down to the genoa tracks.
Don't know a lot about it but interesting.

You would not be wise to ignore the use of designed features, which are probably vital under reduced canvas and in poor conditions.

PS

Just taken in post 4 which explains all, thanks Tchierici

.

 

[Refueler]

Actually I just spotted ( from the picture of the whole boat) that the back stay is fixed (but it splits in two at the bottom) and there are two additional running stays to strengthen the rig while going to wind in a blow i assume.

OK ... basically think on this ...

The Main backstay if its like mine - goes to masthead ...

The ruinning backstays go to mast near where forestay attaches ....

The two have different jobs.

Main sets the main rake and support of mast.

Running backstays set the forestay tension by tensioning the windward one ... tack and change stays.

Here's mine with similar setup ...

Difficult to see but similar to OP's ...

The running stays of course being fastened at the fractional point on mast - mean they conflict with mainsail ... so lee has to be slacked to avoid this.

Am I removing them ? No. My boat is designed for racing and IMHO - that means designer had a reason to have them. Pain I admit ... but once you get used to them ... its not so bad !!

 

[Refueler]

OK ... taking boat to Carib and Pacific ... shorthanded ...

OK ... of course shorthanded - masthead would be best .... removing the need to tend running stays.

But if you are long tacks as crossing pond etc. would be - then its not so bad.

Do not forget also that running stays also ADD to stability of mast if used properly ... yes they can be a disaster if miused ... but that would mean pretty bad handling.

At 6.5T and 35ft ..... not a fast racer ! Given that weight, the data for such a boat - looks like an optional rig or later modification.

My 38ft is 5T ..... accelerates like a bullet ...

 

[westernman]

OK ... basically think on this ...

The Main backstay if its like mine - goes to masthead ...

The ruinning backstays go to mast near where forestay attaches ....

The two have different jobs.

Main sets the main rake and support of mast.

Running backstays set the forestay tension by tensioning the windward one ... tack and change stays.

Here's mine with similar setup ...

Difficult to see but similar to OP's ...

The running stays of course being fastened at the fractional point on mast - mean they conflict with mainsail ... so lee has to be slacked to avoid this.

Am I removing them ? No. My boat is designed for racing and IMHO - that means designer had a reason to have them. Pain I admit ... but once you get used to them ... its not so bad !!

Also, I am guessing that no damage will happen if you do not tension them. So you can take your time on the new tack or gybe to do that.
I suppose the jib sets badly for going to windward unless the windward runner is tensioned.

For trade winds, you have the advantage of not having swept back spreaders digging into the main.

 

[Refueler]

I like the emphasis on beating into wind !! Yes this does stress the setup ... but I am surprised that people don't remark on the running before wind ... when forestay needs serious counter from the running stays ... the masthead backstay is high at head of mast.

 

[dunedin]

I like the emphasis on beating into wind !! Yes this does stress the setup ... but I am surprised that people don't remark on the running before wind ... when forestay needs serious counter from the running stays ... the masthead backstay is high at head of mast.

Yes, with a big spinnaker pulling at the top of the forestay and stuff the bow into a wave, without the runners a lightweight mast could fold forwards. Plenty of early 3/4 rig boats which were not fitted with strong enough rigs did that on a regular basis. Impala OD a good example.

 

[DoubleEnder]

Brilliant. I had runners on a 9/16 rig and I kept it all standing for 17 years. Runners keep you on your toes, give you a whole new set of things to fret about, occasionally terrify you. Brilliant. You want easy, get a motorboat. Runners, especially fresh downwind with a kite or on a hard fetch when you should have reefed a bit more just add to the excitement. Best done with levers not tackles. Tackles give you a second chance. Very girly. Levers it’s one shot hehe he. Love runners. Some boats have 2 pairs! Cool

 

[Tranona]

I wonder why it was fitted with that rig. The original was a classic IOR masthead with 40% of the sail area in the main and a large genoa whereas the rig in the photo looks the opposite - 60% in the main and I would guess a larger overall working sail area.

 

[michael_w]

Once 2 tucks are in the main you can tension both runners. I love a fractional rig, the biggest sail, with a bit of metal on two sides, small headsails and kites. tweeky rig. What's not to like? Apart from the naysayers who only experience is with a masthead tree trunk.