Big fractional rig with running stays

[Refueler]

Once 2 tucks are in the main you can tension both runners. I love a fractional rig, the biggest sail, with a bit of metal on two sides, small headsails and kites. tweeky rig. What's not to like? Apart from the naysayers who only experience is with a masthead tree trunk.

Now I have to love this post !!

I have to admit that I was never a real fan of running stays ... but I am getting to appreciate them on my latest boat.

I've stood on various parts of the deck - looked at mast from many angles and imagined with / without them ... so far - all observations on my boat that is .. supports having them.

 

[Tranona]

Once 2 tucks are in the main you can tension both runners. I love a fractional rig, the biggest sail, with a bit of metal on two sides, small headsails and kites. tweeky rig. What's not to like? Apart from the naysayers who only experience is with a masthead tree trunk.

The question was not about the merits of fractional rigs in general but about the suitability of this boat with this particular rig for short handed ocean cruising. As you can see some have expressed reservations based on their own experience.

 

[dunedin]

Once 2 tucks are in the main you can tension both runners. I love a fractional rig, the biggest sail, with a bit of metal on two sides, small headsails and kites. tweeky rig. What's not to like? Apart from the naysayers who only experience is with a masthead tree trunk.

I also like a fractional rig for coastal cruising and current boat has one - though 7/8 not 3/4 and no running backstays needed.
But masthead rig with big genoa is IMHO better for the OP’s specific, and unusual, plan - downwind in ocean trade winds

 

[Ceirwan]

I also like a fractional rig for coastal cruising and current boat has one - though 7/8 not 3/4 and no running backstays needed.
But masthead rig with big genoa is IMHO better for the OP’s specific, and unusual, plan - downwind in ocean trade winds

I wouldn't pick the boat based on the rig type, other than to make sure that its stong enough for the job.
A quick browse of the thousands of transats on youtube shows that both fractional and masthead rigs can make it well enough

With that said, I prefer a fractional, its easier short handed, more controllable and they are usually attached to boats that sail better.

 

[14K478]

Once 2 tucks are in the main you can tension both runners. I love a fractional rig, the biggest sail, with a bit of metal on two sides, small headsails and kites. tweeky rig. What's not to like? Apart from the naysayers who only experience is with a masthead tree trunk.

This is what I think you want on a long distance boat; the best of both worlds from the point of view of bullet proofing for strong weather and being able to play with a big genoa when that’s what you want. Not a race winning rig though:



(old picture, not mine. I scrapped the big canister liferaft on the foredeck).

Inner forestay is on the mother of all Highfield levers, and if I could find two more I’d scrap the winches on the runners and my happiness would be complete.

 

[William_H]

Running back stays can vary from absolutely vital to keep mast intact through to nice to have to get more tension on the forestay.
Runners often also have check stays ie a connection with a stay from middle of runner to a point middle of mast so check stay pulls back middle of mast while top of runner pulls back at forestay level. All to kep mast stable in fore and aft direction.
It is all a question of dimensions. A small cross section mast will depend much more on aft swept spreaders, runners and check stays than a large dimension robust mast. Then the question of just how much fraction of rig is forestay mounted ie dimension top of forestay to top of mast (main back stay attach) Obviously closer back stay to forestay the less critical the runners.
Runners can be a pain if you are tacking and gybing often. Not so much on a long one tack voyage. Can you just forget the runners and tie them to gunwhale forward where they don't interfere with main sail? Yes of course in light weather. No not in heavy weather unless you seriously reduce sail area. As said with deep reef you may be able to tension both runners.
Then there are other options like diamond jumper struts on front of mast stiffening the upper mast above forestay fitting so the main back stay can exert pressur of top of forestay.
The whole question is one of engineering and yacht rig design. All a bit to me uncertain. If you buy a boat type of which there are many examples just like yours with same mast and rigging then you can rely on the experience of others. If you change the rig then you become a test case. Which may or may not be good.
I sailed on a old farr 40 which had been built as an all out ocean racer with running back stays. The new owner sailing in our area with a lot of tight tacking, removed runners. Moved chain plates aft and fitted swept back spreaders. Seemed successful but I never flt he was willing to really push the rig.
My own little trailer sailer had initially running back stays. Which I simply removed. No regrets.
Another friend had a 30ft Peterson design with runners. He found them a pain. He opted to shorten the boom and main sail so it cleared the running back stays kept tensioned.
So to the OP he might consider shortening the top of the mast to bring it closer to a mast head rig so main back stay can do the job. Fit jumper struts diamonds on front of mast. Or just choose to use runners only in open water and in heavy winds. it will all be a gamble. ol'will

 

[Neeves]

Its not easy to see in the pics, but it looks like the sprreaders have minimal sweep aft.

This generally means that you need to keep the running backstays on to keep the mast standing & for forestay tension.
If the boom is able to clear them (and the roach of the main) then you can probably set & forget while cruising.

If they don't clear, then every time you tack or gybe, you will have to release one runner & tension the other.

Its not such a big deal if you are cruising as you don't (often) tack and tack and tack - usually a tack is so out of the ordinary you write it into the log

You simple need to be well organised and it is no big deal if only one person is on deck.

If you are cruising I really don't see you hoisting a spinnaker in big seas. Cruising is not a competition. If the wind is up, as mentioned, you use both runners, simultaneously as the roach 'passes' underneath.

I liked runners and check stays and in light winds would hoist a spinnaker - all single handed. X-99, 33'.

Jonathan

 

[Ceirwan]

Its not such a big deal if you are cruising as you don't (often) tack and tack and tack - usually a tack is so out of the ordinary you write it into the log

You simple need to be well organised and it is no big deal if only one person is on deck.

If you are cruising I really don't see you hoisting a spinnaker in big seas. Cruising is not a competition. If the wind is up, as mentioned, you use both runners, simultaneously as the roach 'passes' underneath.

I liked runners and check stays and in light winds would hoist a spinnaker - all single handed. X-99, 33'.

Jonathan

I used to race on an MG30, we had one dedicated guy, sat behind the tiller on the runners. Usually worked well, although they did taffled one time & we ended up catching the boom after a gybe in strong winds, all of a sudden we were rounded up facing the wrong way into the fleet! Less of an issue cruising.

For crusing I wouldn't pick them, but if my heart was set on a boat then I wouldn't let it put me off. As you mentioned, its nice to have the extra security when its blowing a bit.

 

[Neeves]

I used to race on an MG30, we had one dedicated guy, sat behind the tiller on the runners. Usually worked well, although they did taffled one time & we ended up catching the boom after a gybe in strong winds, all of a sudden we were rounded up facing the wrong way into the fleet! Less of an issue cruising.

For crusing I wouldn't pick them, but if my heart was set on a boat then I wouldn't let it put me off. As you mentioned, its nice to have the extra security when its blowing a bit.

I would agree - if I fell in love with a yacht - then runners are not even an inconvenience, just a bit unusual on a cruising yacht. The yacht in question is designed around performance at the expense of comfort - but, for some, performance is important - its the journey not the destination.

It is possible to combine both performance and comfort - just look at 'J' yachts or X Yachts as examples.

If the yacht in question meets the demands of you, and the crew, for comfort and (separately) performance don't worry about runners - they are pretty insignificant if all the other ducks are lined up.

Jonathan

 

[Snowgoose-1]

My only experience of runners are on mizzen masts and ketch rig.

When lightly crewed an absolute pain. Crossing Biscay on one or two tacks maybe fine . Worse , it often led to not flying the mizzen at all because of the faff.

I'm sure many can make it work just fine without problems though.

Best of luck with you're search .

 

[dunedin]

It is possible to combine both performance and comfort - just look at 'J' yachts or X Yachts as examples.

Yes, but very few J yachts do blue water cruising. Plenty of X Yachts do, but mostly have 9/10ths rig and substantial masts with no runners needed. Quite a few XY also fitted special large genoas for poling out downwind on Atlantic crossings.

 

[jdc]

Runners are no big problem when short-handed on an ocean passage; we sail a cutter rig and need them to counteract the staysail pulling the mast forward the upper spreaders height, but they were never an issue.

A second yankee (genoa) in the twin luff groove and the main furled is a pretty conventional and stress-free sail plan for ocean sailing (down-wind!), so the runners can both be tensioned without getting in anything's way. And going up-wind the runners don't have to be moved much: two handed we can short-tack with yankee, staysail and main without issues: one of us at the wheel and doing the runners and the other (usually me) doing the yankee and staysail.

The best modification we made to the boat's back stay arrangement was using dyneema rather than wire, just running the dyneema through blocks on the quarters to winches on the side decks; this mitigates against chafe and makes them easy to cast off - no heavy block swinging around at the helmsman's head height!

 

[Tranona]

Runners are no big problem when short-handed on an ocean passage; we sail a cutter rig and need them to counteract the staysail pulling the mast forward the upper spreaders height, but they were never an issue.

A second yankee (genoa) in the twin luff groove and the main furled is a pretty conventional and stress-free sail plan for ocean sailing (down-wind!), so the runners can both be tensioned without getting in anything's way. And going up-wind the runners don't have to be moved much: two handed we can short-tack with yankee, staysail and main without issues: one of us at the wheel and doing the runners and the other (usually me) doing the yankee and staysail.

The best modification we made to the boat's back stay arrangement was using dyneema rather than wire, just running the dyneema through blocks on the quarters to winches on the side decks; this mitigates against chafe and makes them easy to cast off - no heavy block swinging around at the helmsman's head height!

The boat in question is not cutter rigged but has a tall spindly mast, large mainsail with long boom and 3/4 or so forestay which limits the size of the foretriangle. It is not necessarily the runners that are the issue but whether this rig is suitable as a basis for short handed ocean cruising. Much of course will depend on how actively the crew sails the boat or whether their priority is an easily handled flexible off wind set up

 

[Neeves]

The boat in question is not cutter rigged but has a tall spindly mast, large mainsail with long boom and 3/4 or so forestay which limits the size of the foretriangle. It is not necessarily the runners that are the issue but whether this rig is suitable as a basis for short handed ocean cruising. Much of course will depend on how actively the crew sails the boat or whether their priority is an easily handled flexible off wind set up

One thing I would do is check the reefs. With a big main you need decent reefs that are easy, is the word 'reliable', to use. You certainly want to be able to reduce the main with a reef (or reefs) to a manageable size - you may need to have new reefs installed and devise a way to reef from the cockpit (not difficult just needs thought).

Once you have all the reefs in you can tighten up the rig with both of the runners and check stays and then you can tack as often as you like and the roach will not even touch the runners.

OK ... basically think on this ...

The Main backstay if its like mine - goes to masthead ...

The ruinning backstays go to mast near where forestay attaches ....

The two have different jobs.

Main sets the main rake and support of mast.

Running backstays set the forestay tension by tensioning the windward one ... tack and change stays.

Here's mine with similar setup ...

Difficult to see but similar to OP's ...

The running stays of course being fastened at the fractional point on mast - mean they conflict with mainsail ... so lee has to be slacked to avoid this.

Am I removing them ? No. My boat is designed for racing and IMHO - that means designer had a reason to have them. Pain I admit ... but once you get used to them ... its not so bad !!

If you look at the last picture of refueler's post and focus on the runner blocks. When you tack the blocks are designed to decapitate the helmsman. On way to get them our of harms way is to attach a small block high up on the backstay - as high as you can reach. Attach bungee to one block, run bungee through the small block on the back stay and attach to the other runner block. Adjust bungee tension so that both block clear the helmsman's (or woman's) head. When you take one runner in the bungee pulls the flying block to the small block on the backstay - well out of the way but the bungee stretches enough (that's why its high up on the backstay) that you can tension the runner

You need to renew the bungee relatively frequently - but it does save skulls.

Its easier to explain 'on site' but is obvious when you have the yacht, a small block and some bungee to hand.

Jonathan

 

[Refueler]

The slack in a runner does not have to be such that the block on a tackle equipped runner becomes dangerous ... its surprising how little slack is really needed.

Yes I have considered a 'bungee' retainer - but there's enough 'cordage' to not add more. Also how many boats do you see with such bungee setup ... I cannot remember seeing even one.

 

[Daydream believer]

its nice to have the extra security when its blowing a bit.

But is it extra security? The fact they are there suggests that they are needed. If one made a mistake & missed setting them up in a nasty gybe etc one could be in danger of damaging the mast. To me that means that they REDUCE security

 

[Daydream believer]

Difficult to see but similar to OP's ...

Pain I admit ...

Similar? But yours is RED

 

[Neeves]

The slack in a runner does not have to be such that the block on a tackle equipped runner becomes dangerous ... its surprising how little slack is really needed.

Yes I have considered a 'bungee' retainer - but there's enough 'cordage' to not add more. Also how many boats do you see with such bungee setup ... I cannot remember seeing even one.

Common on X Yachts that have runners as part of the rig. I don't know how many yachts they produced with running backstays but they were on the X79, X99 and the X 119 - a total of over 1,000 yachts and the bungee idea was used on the bulk of the builds, X99 and X119 (I've only seen one X79 - and don't recall the detail).

Jonathan

 

[14K478]

I may be missing the point here, but for the last hundred years it has been normal to rig a light line from the upper runner block to a light block at the aft chainplate on each side, and back to a small cleat at the cockpit. You pull on this to get the lee runner block out of the way and stop it banging about, braining the crew and causing chafe. My pre-War Whisstocks gaff cutter had them and my 1975 Nicholson has them.

If you are short tacking you just let the lee runner go; if you are making a longer board you take the runner block forward to the shrouds. All done from the cockpit!

 

[tchierici]

Thank you all for the very informative replies. I am talking to the owner soon to understand a bit more about this particular set up. He has singleshanded the boat from Sweden to Greece so it's not impossible. However if I need to slacken and re-tension the runners every time I tack then that's going to be a pain as I am planning to stay in the Med for the short/medium term then prep the boat for a circumnavigation within the next 7 years or so. From experience frequent tacking in confined channels around the Greek islands in lumpy seas in a Force 5 is not uncommon. So if the rig isn't a bit forgiving then I'll pass.