Best seakeeping boat 40-48feet

[MapisM]

kinda contradictory to Mapish M “ no investment “ line of thinking

As if a drawing board were an investment...
Anyway, I'll tell you what:
I'll happily admit to be wrong after you will post pics of all the Itamas you will find at the show, together with all other FG brands/models, for comparison.
I have a funny feeling that the 62 Marco mentioned was all alone, within a massive FG fleet of all their other much more valuable and compelling brands.

 

[petem]

@marcochi76 apologies, this thread is way too long winded for me to read every word.

Can you describe what your issue is with ubiquitous boats (i.e. those from S/S, Fairline, Princess, etc)?

Do you really need to or like going out in challenging conditions?

For me, one of the luxuries of owning a boat is being able to choose when I go out. And that's limited to days when there's nothing more than a light winds. If it's windier than that then anchoring isn't much fun.

As for an all rounder, I'd much rather have a boat with comfortable accommodation than one which has better sea-keeping in extreme conditions.

 

[MapisM]

As for an all rounder, I'd much rather have a boat with comfortable accommodation than one which has better sea-keeping in extreme conditions.

Amen!

 

[DAW]

@marcochi76 apologies, this thread is way too long winded for me to read every word.

Can you describe what your issue is with ubiquitous boats (i.e. those from S/S, Fairline, Princess, etc)?

Do you really need to or like going out in challenging conditions?

For me, one of the luxuries of owning a boat is being able to choose when I go out. And that's limited to days when there's nothing more than a light winds. If it's windier than that then anchoring isn't much fun.

As for an all rounder, I'd much rather have a boat with comfortable accommodation than one which has better sea-keeping in extreme conditions.

As a long term resident of SoF and owner of multiple Sunseeker sport cruisers, I obviously don't think there is an issue with boats from the UK builders or their suitability for the Med market. However, I do believe there is a marked difference in design philosophy and approach between the UK builders and their Italian counterparts when it comes to sports cruisers ... much more so than with the flybridge equivalents.

Over the last 10-15 years, the UK builders have all added the practicality of their flybridge ranges to their sports cruisers to varying degrees. This has resulted in better accommodation, more internal space, and in some cases more external space through the addition of substantial "sports" flybridges. Unfortunately, it has also been accompanied by a reduction in outright performance usually due to a combination of more beam, more height, more weight, smaller engines with less total hp, and increasingly a move to the more space and fuel efficient IPS. Although this results in improved accommodation and better fuel economy it also results in lower absolute performance from more highly stressed engines, and some form of stabilisation has now become an essential option rather than a "nice to have".

In contrast, the Italian brands and particularly those from the Ferretti Group (Riva, Itama, Pershing, etc.) have continued to pursue a more pure, performance oriented philosophy in these type of boats, usually involving bigger engines, more power in reserve, narrower beam, lower profile, higher top speeds, etc., but with the resulting compromises made on internal space, comfort and fuel efficiency. Alongside this you have new entrants like Pardo, Van Dutch, Axopar, etc. that have been very successful in the 40-60ft dayboat/overnight market but with a new, open concept offering limited accommodation.

Personally, I don't think any of these options is right or wrong, or inherently better than any other. They each offer different combinations of performance, space, economy, style, etc. and you make a choice based on where and how you intend to use the boat, the conditions you expect to encounter and what is important to you.

Regarding seakeeping, etc. ... Without getting involved in the deep-v and deadrise debate or discussing performance in extreme conditions (which I also do everything I can to avoid), I personally consider the ability to cruise for 20-30nm/1-2 hours at speeds of up 20-25 knots in relative comfort in moderately challenging conditions (F3/F4, 1-2m seas) to be an essential characteristic of these type of boats. They are not meant to be floating apartments in a marina, caravans that sit at anchor for extended periods, or to only go out when the weather is perfect. They are designed to get you somewhere nice for the day and then back to the safety of the marina in time for dinner, travelling relatively quickly and in reasonable comfort, and to deal with the frequent and rapid changes in sea conditions that can be encountered during the course of a typical day along the Côte d'Azur or around Corsica and Sardinia, where winds can shift on an almost hourly basis.

 

[petem]

As a long term resident of SoF and owner of multiple Sunseeker sport cruisers, I obviously don't think there is an issue with boats from the UK builders or their suitability for the Med market. However, I do believe there is a marked difference in design philosophy and approach between the UK builders and their Italian counterparts when it comes to sports cruisers ... much more so than with the flybridge equivalents.

Over the last 10-15 years, the UK builders have all added the practicality of their flybridge ranges to their sports cruisers to varying degrees. This has resulted in better accommodation, more internal space, and in some cases more external space through the addition of substantial "sports" flybridges. Unfortunately, it has also been accompanied by a reduction in outright performance usually due to a combination of more beam, more height, more weight, smaller engines with less total hp, and increasingly a move to the more space and fuel efficient IPS. Although this results in improved accommodation and better fuel economy it also results in lower absolute performance from more highly stressed engines, and some form of stabilisation has now become an essential option rather than a "nice to have".

In contrast, the Italian brands and particularly those from the Ferretti Group (Riva, Itama, Pershing, etc.) have continued to pursue a more pure, performance oriented philosophy in these type of boats, usually involving bigger engines, more power in reserve, narrower beam, lower profile, higher top speeds, etc., but with the resulting compromises made on internal space, comfort and fuel efficiency. Alongside this you have new entrants like Pardo, Van Dutch, Axopar, etc. that have been very successful in the 40-60ft dayboat/overnight market but with a new, open concept offering limited accommodation.

Personally, I don't think any of these options is right or wrong, or inherently better than any other. They each offer different combinations of performance, space, economy, style, etc. and you make a choice based on where and how you intend to use the boat, the conditions you expect to encounter and what is important to you.

Regarding seakeeping, etc. ... Without getting involved in the deep-v and deadrise debate or discussing performance in extreme conditions (which I also do everything I can to avoid), I personally consider the ability to cruise for 20-30nm/1-2 hours at speeds of up 20-25 knots in relative comfort in moderately challenging conditions (F3/F4, 1-2m seas) to be an essential characteristic of these type of boats. They are not meant to be floating apartments in a marina, caravans that sit at anchor for extended periods, or to only go out when the weather is perfect. They are designed to get you somewhere nice for the day and then back to the safety of the marina in time for dinner, travelling relatively quickly and in reasonable comfort, and to deal with the frequent and rapid changes in sea conditions that can be encountered during the course of a typical day along the Côte d'Azur or around Corsica and Sardinia, where winds can shift on an almost hourly basis.

Very well said.

 

[Illetas]

Having spent the last fourteen years enjoying a Sunseeker Camargue 50 I agree with DAW's post!

 

[MapisM]

I personally consider the ability to cruise for 20-30nm/1-2 hours at speeds of up 20-25 knots in relative comfort in moderately challenging conditions (F3/F4, 1-2m seas) to be an essential characteristic of these type of boats.

I see your point, and I don't disagree.
Just one consideration: there's a helluva difference between 1 and 2 meters waves.
I'd have no problem whatsoever to cruise all day long in a 1m sea at 25kts, also on the nose, even with my sedate flybridge boat. Not comfortable, but doable.
OTOH, when a boater says that his boat can cruise at 25 kts against 2m short breaking waves, I know for a fact that I'm either dealing with a liar, or with someone who has no clue about how a 2m short breaking wave looks like.
And that's without even knowing what boat is he talking about - unless it's a 140 feet monster like those built by AB, Pershing, etc.

 

[DAW]

I see your point, and I don't disagree.
Just one consideration: there's a helluva difference between 1 and 2 meters waves.
I'd have no problem whatsoever to cruise all day long in a 1m sea at 25kts, also on the nose, even with my sedate flybridge boat. Not comfortable, but doable.
OTOH, when a boater says that his boat can cruise at 25 kts against 2m short breaking waves, I know for a fact that I'm either dealing with a liar, or with someone who has no clue about how a 2m short breaking wave looks like.
And that's without even knowing what boat is he talking about - unless it's a 140 feet monster like those built by AB, Pershing, etc.

I agree with you completely, but for me “1-2m seas” does not mean 2m short breaking waves.

Here in SoF we typically have wave periods of 4-6 seconds and wave heights (i.e. swell) of 0.5-1.0m … particularly around St Tropez. For me, a good sports cruiser should easily handle these conditions without the need to slow down and with very little pitching.

When the wind picks up in the late afternoon, or when we have the tail end of a Mistral wrapping around from the Golfe du Lion, the wave height can increase somewhat. My feeling is that In a good boat you shouldn’t need to slow down too much as long as we’re talking about increased swell and not breaking waves.

When the wave period shortens and/or the crests are breaking, then anything over 1m obviously means slowing down, often considerably … even in an Itama

 

[Portofino]

The deeper V s ( over 20 degrees ) can stay on the plane longer . Say dropping from 28 to 22/24 knots in the same seas others have dropped off to D speed . In comfort.
That’s what the threads about .

The threshold for slowing down is noticeably and real life usage pleasantly higher . Yes they do use more fuel because of the bigger engines . In moderate 1 m seas they give a more smooth comfier ride than the shallow V s .
Even if both boats are at the same speed . Just less tiring more relaxing in like for like conditions for the Itama , Otam ,Magnum and most Pershing , Riva to the eq size uk builders .

The deeper V boats are usually not a first newbie boat .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

As a long term resident of SoF and owner of multiple Sunseeker sport cruisers, I obviously don't think there is an issue with boats from the UK builders or their suitability for the Med market. However, I do believe there is a marked difference in design philosophy and approach between the UK builders and their Italian counterparts when it comes to sports cruisers ... much more so than with the flybridge equivalents.

Over the last 10-15 years, the UK builders have all added the practicality of their flybridge ranges to their sports cruisers to varying degrees. This has resulted in better accommodation, more internal space, and in some cases more external space through the addition of substantial "sports" flybridges. Unfortunately, it has also been accompanied by a reduction in outright performance usually due to a combination of more beam, more height, more weight, smaller engines with less total hp, and increasingly a move to the more space and fuel efficient IPS. Although this results in improved accommodation and better fuel economy it also results in lower absolute performance from more highly stressed engines, and some form of stabilisation has now become an essential option rather than a "nice to have".

All very correct, to a very degree without going to nationalistic the British boats have always been above average good performers.
What I have learnt on my skin (since I grew up sort with them) from the early eighties.
A Sunseeker 34 XPS Portofino which arrived in Malta in 1985 was my god boat in that time.
Is that most of them are far from the best, the British mags tend to say they are.

Sport Bridges are not new, Riva experimented with them in a different way with the 42 Caribe and 34 Portofino in the seventies (was he the first), and the first sport bridge boat with enclosed main deck was the Cantieri di Pisa Akhir 18 FB (still a beautiful machine) which arrived in 1983. Cerri re-introduced the modern concept in 2003, and then Pershing with the 92 first 82 and 74, Sunseeker with the Predators in the late noughties (I think it was 92 first and then the 84), and then Princess with the V85-S. Anyways whether one likes it or not Italians have led the way in this design things since boating became a thing, and they did also in a lot of the technical side as well.

As for Itama and FG, they will not do anything big with it, the fact they are doing a new model probably came as pressure from its biggest South of France/Corsica dealer who sells about half of the production.
But we are seeing some good signs, as taking an Itama 62RS at the Fort Lauderdale and Miami and Palm Beach boat shows. So the narrative is being pushed a bit again.
They are more concentrated on Wally for example, which is the latest baby in the fold.

So Mapis is right on that regard, although as someone who knows the brand and some of its dynamics as a bit its story, I cannot understand what is he trying to push here.

As a lover of Itama I am not sure if FG selling it would be better or worse, some buyer might not understand the brand, and Itama is a brand which you need to understand.
If you want 100 boats a year brand, look at a Princess or Prestige. For the worse FG has stayed pretty much true to the concept, adding some nice touches, without losing most of its purity.
Still an investment whether small or large is welcome, after like ten years plus without one. Itama even in Amati times, has always been a brand of 10 to 20 boats a year, and a new model like every 2/3 years.
Even in Amati times for example he made 1986 to 1995 without any real new model.

Fair to say since the new ownership FG as a Group has done some good things, but some have been left in the closet see for example Mochi, and the full custom identity they want to give to CRN above fifty meters only etc. Mochi is a pity as it was the baby of Norberto, and I still think they lost on occasion when they introduced the semi-displacement 23m Long Range, smaller LRs and so on. Times where hard in those times and Monti did not help.... But who knows what would have happened with Norberto at the helm.

btw the same story and lines holds true with Magnum Marine although it is a bit of a different act together.

 

[marcochi76]

I think DAW got it right.
The goal is not to navigate 2m short waves at 25knots.
But it is to feel safe and not fearing to damage the boat if running at planning speed during a typical windy summer day (15-25knots wind), and its associated short waves of 1-1.5m.

Coming back from the Cannes Yacht show:
Itama: only one 62rs on display. Nice boat but I cannot understand some choices. To go to the bow area, they created a central passage through the wind screen. But to go there you need to close the "door" as the steps are integrated into the "door". And the captain agreed that nobody want to go to the bow from the lateral passages...
And the passage through the wind screen is super slippery and one of the jobs of the captain was to ensure nobody is walking there with wet feet. Come on...Really???
The Ferretti guy admitted that they hesitated a lot before decided to study a new Itama model. But effectively they were missing something between the 45 and 62.
The new 52 definetly brings some new ideas (central helm position) with classic touches: straight and angled wind screen, reversed aft.
I am not convinced of the interior layout: galley and sofa and one side, 2 heads on the other.

Pershing: 7X, GTX 116, GTX 80.
I already visited all Pershing models last year, so not interested.

Riva: 6 models on display. I visited the 48 Dolceriva and new 56 rivale.
Wonderful boats. the 48 maybe too much shiny lacquered wood and leather. Sometimes too much is too much.
They are presenting a variant to the 56 Rivale with a hardtop similar to the Diable's one. If I won a couple of lotteries, that would be a very interesting boat

Princess:
a lot of models. I visited the V55, S65, F65, S80. All simply wonderful!
I really love Princess design. I find it fresh, sporty, modern and...flawless.
V55 is close to perfection to me. OK, it lacks 1 full height fridge.
Absolutely no info available on deadrise. )))

Fairline:
The Targa 40 cockpit layout is very innovative, with the opening side and the split sunpads.

Sunseeker:
Predator 55: I was a little disappointed. I find the V55 works better. I cannot tell exactly why. A friend of mine had the same feeling.
Except some crazy solutions: you cannot fully open the door of the VIP cabin as it is blocked by the handle of the door to the bathroom. Again, really???
Helm position: if you stand up, you are forced against the wheel. Super uncomfortable

Filippetti:
Last year I already had the chance to sea trial the 55s on Arneson. This boat is closed to perfection.
It would be perfect if it had a large opening roof like the one found on V55 or Predator55.
Took advantage to greet again Giovanni Filippetti, a super nice guy.

Vespro
I have an appointment to sea trial this we the new Centouno Navi Vespro 55. Depending on the weather.
Super excited.

 

[marcochi76]

Sorry, I forgot. The best boat of the show was to me the Otam 90 GTS.
What a machine!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Vespro
I have an appointment to sea trial this we the new Centouno Navi Vespro 55. Depending on the weather.
Super excited.

If you press Marco will take you out in much of the weather, although as a fast boat some of the characteristics will not appreciated to the full.

 

[jointventureII]

Sorry, I forgot. The best boat of the show was to me the Otam 90 GTS.
What a machine!

I'm based next door to the Otam yard (as in, it's about 25 metres away, literally).

Some of the stuff they produce is really impressive. They take them out in all sorts of weather too, and regularly lift the same boat out of the water 3 times in a day to test propeller configurations

 

[Portofino]

Well makes Nordhavens look look like toys in terms of sea keeping, and it’s green as has a nice battery range to boot .
A bit basic inside “ hotel “ wise and lacks teak and bathing platforms etc .
Has a great trick if the sea roughs up though
It’s just the “ made in Italy “ bit I would really be nervous of with this type of boat - Hmm ?

 

[MapisM]

It’s just the “ made in Italy “ bit I would really be nervous of with this type of boat - Hmm ?

Considering that it's half a century since the thing was first launched, and it still is in nice shape and afloat, I'm not sure you'd have real reasons to be nervous.
Surely not much more than on modern "made in USA" jetliners like, say, the 737 Max, I reckon...

 

[stelican]

Does it have 2 prop shafts

 

[MapisM]

Nope. Two props/engines, two problems!

But if you are referring to the two diesels visible in one of the pics, neither are connected to the prop shaft, which is electric driven only.
The diesels were only working as gensets, and there were two of them mostly for redundance than anything else, I think.

 

[Portofino]

I think I saw three engines , I am stood in between the middle and std one . I noticed the range underwater on battery was only 60 miles @4.5 knots .
So a modern nuclear powered sub would out run it easily underwater .

Quite a tiny boat really , buy just a hunter killer for local coastal protection , guess that’s all you need really spec wise ?

 

[MapisM]

Well, underwater doesn't imply on battery power alone.
At snorkel depth, they could run the diesels and provide the max power (hence also speed) to the electric engine.
But obviously, nuclear subs are in an entirely different league.