Best seakeeping boat 40-48feet

[MapisM]

Those three Otam , magnum , Itama can keep going comfortably in the same sea states others have backed off .

That's precisely where we can only agree to disagree.
What I'm positive about is that you can maybe keep going, but NOT comfortably by any stretch of imagination.
In sea conditions that force a 23m Princess to slow down at D speed? You must be joking.
If and when that happens, I'm not arguing that you can still keep going fast(ish), up to a point.
But if you still call that pleasure boating, well, we have different views on what pleasure is.

 

[Portofino]

That's precisely where we can only agree to disagree.
What I'm positive about is that you can maybe keep going, but NOT comfortably by any stretch of imagination.
In sea conditions that force a 23m Princess to slow down at D speed? You must be joking.
If and when that happens, I'm not arguing that you can still keep going fast(ish), up to a point.
But if you still call that pleasure boating, well, we have different views on what pleasure is.

Hey as i said they were slamming probably ( you know the galley contents falling out ) as well as the crash bang wallop ….bearing in mind the size difference is most likely why it dropped off . Why carry on and risk breaking the boat ?I have been on crash bang wallop boats it’s not nice hearing this or feeling this being bounced around , and imaging the life of a stringer and reason a surveyor checks there attachment at surveys . Too polite to mention which brands .Just Happy pointing which don’t , it’s a short list of three over those also rans that do .

Once round the cap it did pick up again . So not a tech issue it didn’t carry on @ D .

We went through the same sea not over it didn’t slam , sure it might have gotten a bit more air than I would have liked but had a bouncy castle cushion silent ride returning . Cos it’s a deep V and better balanced so not to pitch up ….like that SH triple arneson 50 we went through. We Just land softly we within Mrs P s comfort zone .

My expectations with the SH was it would left us for dead but the sea state prevented this .
My expectation the with big Priny it should not have dropped off due to its size / mass / L been able to stay up at P .
My expectation with the 60 ft Sunseeker it shouldn’t have followed our wake back , it should have cut its own path through the “ sea state “ to make a reasonable ride comfortably for guests .Two of which were puking up over the side while Mrs Porto read a book calmly looking back at them .

All these days were fairly ordinary for the CdA afternoon blow up combo of wind Dir low depth in certain places and tide / currents .

8 pm of course it’s pancake flat …..but folks have shore side itineraries to keep .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

That's precisely where we can only agree to disagree.
What I'm positive about is that you can maybe keep going, but NOT comfortably by any stretch of imagination.
In sea conditions that force a 23m Princess to slow down at D speed? You must be joking.
If and when that happens, I'm not arguing that you can still keep going fast(ish), up to a point.
But if you still call that pleasure boating, well, we have different views on what pleasure is.

I was once doing Siracusa - Riposto, with a Cayman 58 (closes at 20 but the fore-foot is not so deep 35 degrees).
Two meter real wave height Easterly (couple three meters, wind blowing steady at 25 knots) on the Ionian short and sweet.
Had on the nose and backed down at fifteen knots to reduce the banging and make it more comfortable for everyone.

Anyways at entry in Riposto two Princesses came in some minutes later, a 72 and an older 78, both with there saloon liners all down.
They had also an easier leg, coming from Reggio in a following sea, and they told me they had to drive at ten/12 knots displacement speeds.
I lost only a fender that day. So probably you gave the wrong boat as an example. Next time P go with a Alalunga 72 or 78....

 

[MapisM]

I lost only a fender that day. So probably you gave the wrong boat as an example. Next time P go with a Alalunga 72 or 78....

I'm not the one who mentioned the Princess, I just quoted what PF said.
Regardless, I think you are now making the same mistake that he keeps doing, i.e. treating the subject as if it were a matter of "boat X is better than Y", while my point is that this is almost irrelevant, when it comes to comfort.
I mean, when I hear of comfortable cruising in a short 2m waves sea on the nose, I can only think of two alternatives, without even knowing the boat involved: either you are confusing meters with feet (but I don't think you are), or we have a radically different idea of what "comfortable" means.
And mind, when I say "without knowing the boat", I mean including properly seaworthy ones, like Nordhavns and the likes, not just Caymans, Itamas, or any other light toy designed for coastal hopping.
In fact, while the best boat of that ilk is MUCH less comfortable than the worst stabilized bluewater trawler for any given size, even the latter can NOT make a passage really comfortable in those conditions, anyway.
They are just the best tool for the job, and obviously anyone in his right mind would use them for cruising in rough conditions rather than any planing boat AOTBE, but they can't make miracles - as PF pretends his boat does.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I'm not the one who mentioned the Princess, I just quoted what PF said.
Regardless, I think you are now making the same mistake that he keeps doing, i.e. treating the subject as if it were a matter of "boat X is better than Y", while my point is that this is almost irrelevant, when it comes to comfort.
I mean, when I hear of comfortable cruising in a short 2m waves sea on the nose, I can only think of two alternatives, without even knowing the boat involved: either you are confusing meters with feet (but I don't think you are), or we have a radically different idea of what "comfortable" means.
And mind, when I say "without knowing the boat", I mean including properly seaworthy ones, like Nordhavns and the likes, not just Caymans, Itamas, or any other light toy designed for coastal hopping.
In fact, while the best boat of that ilk is MUCH less comfortable than the worst stabilized bluewater trawler for any given size, even the latter can NOT make a passage really comfortable in those conditions, anyway.
They are just the best tool for the job, and obviously anyone in his right mind would use them for cruising in rough conditions rather than any planing boat AOTBE, but they can't make miracles - as PF pretends his boat does.

The subject whether we like it or not is always A vs B, or X vs Y. I also think you are doing a similar mistake to him, because when you bring a displacement yacht its really another ball park of comfort, with its negative and positive. It's really like speaking about Wine and bringing a Brandy to the table.

Sure an Itama as is a Magnum, Otam and the old Baia's (new ones a but less with the exception of the 63 Azz) are extremes on the deep-V subject, but they do it with a comfort of there own.
They are what would you call a powerboat type boat (but have a similar hull in a wider beam and much more weight) that is what they take.
Surely all boats are a compromise, and sometimes these boats are not for everyone, especially the style boating started to take since the nineties,

As for the comfort, I consider comfort cruising when the boat is not really banging at the speed I am doing, and stuff is not being thrown over the place, and the crew is happily seated onboard.
I always try to set that as a balance. Obviously it is a planning boat, you have to respect, the sea and what it is throwing accordingly.

Probably I really suggest you try an Itama yourself in some rough conditions, so as to become a believer, it is surprising how many remain speechless after trying it.
I think your judging of an Itama comes from the powerboats which you owned in the past, and the only think these two have the same is the deadrise aft.
It is something completely different.
Even those who where not believers, as for example Porto was, when he was in SS land, but that is a story for him to say.

 

[MapisM]

As for the comfort, I consider comfort cruising when the boat is not really banging at the speed I am doing, and stuff is not being thrown over the place, and the crew is happily seated onboard.

Q.E.D., W: we definitely have a radically different idea of comfort.

Years ago, I made a delivery trip from Malta to Genoa in January. More than 3 full days, non-stop.
We had times when it was possible to boil water to make pasta, and move anywhere onboard with a tray full of stuff in your hands, without needing to hang anywhere.
Now, THAT is my idea of cruising in comfort.

At other times, we had F5 to 6 sea state, from each and every angle, to the point of not even bothering to turn the wipers on sometimes, when they couldn't keep up with the wash - go figure.
BUT, at no time the boat was banging, or stuff thrown all over the place, and as you say we could always be happily seated - or even sleep in our cabins.
That said, in those moments a comfortable cruising it was not, by any stretch of imagination. I'd simply call it a job to be accomplished, nothing else.

But there's one thing I'm sure of, and there's absolutely no need to try any boat to tell this:
I would have regretted badly doing the same trip with any open boat, constantly getting green water on your face every other wave, for hours.
That wouldn't even rank as a job to accomplish - rather an unavoidable punishment, in order to bring back on land all the souls onboard, period.

 

[Portofino]

My “ story’s on post #16 .

Bringing Nordhaven into the equation of a med planning boat is way outside the ops remit .
6 knots for Christ sake .

No body sets off to have a rough ride seeking waves for the hell of it .
But in the CdA they pop up even with the best laid plans .Monaco to St Tropez etc .

Here’s another example where the extra seakeeping has benefitted .
Lerin island off Cannes a popular day trip destination. From La Rague / La Napoule you have to cross the bay of Cannes .
In the afternoon it can blow up that bay .Combo of wind , others wake ( massive traffic ) , fetch , water bouncing off 3 sides .
It’s not far iirc 8-10 miles .
Van Dutch dealer in La Rague and lot about locally .
Stern drives so rearward weight but they have gone down the very fine fwd entry route so there is ability to slice / cut through waves .Bit like axopars but bigger .
Because of the low power engines on drives ( compared to what Itama , Magnum , Baia , Otam fit on shafts / Arnesons they have very modest deadrise or more flatter stern areas to aid planning .Relying on fine for foot to cut through .
Stylist wise slab sides very upright hardly if any Carolina flair or indeed bow bulbous / added bow buoyancy.

Loverly day 30 odd air temp etc etc flat calm bay no adverse forecast .Every man and his boat ( 5000 ) berths bay of Cannes inc up the rivers ) out at the Lerins flat calm i between the islands .

Afternoon draws on the bay starts to get a few white horses , the kite surfers appear , the ferry’s look like they are pitching about .
4 pm the white horses are bigger and it’s really blowing out in the bay .On the anchorage it’s now windy but not wavey .

Time to rtn to port ,

Behind us was obviously a charter Van Dutch , I had been admiring it all day and watching the skipper + crew entertain the 4 guests .The two women had there final dip , crew pupped up the ladder , the women proceeded to shampoo there long frizzy hair in a way only women do ,

Anchor up off they go heading back to La Rague .
We are ready but I say to my wife “ watch that boat interesting to see how tackles this sea state “

Sure enough as he clears the last marker buoy he gets it up on the plane .

The waves interval was huge ( as well as over 2 M + white horses on every one ) .
What happened was this ……
As it crossed the thoughts it’s middle to rear ward hull belly hit the next wave .This is very flat the stern even more so .
I saw the pretty ladies bounce off there seats and ones hat went flying .
Further more ( the hull sides ) spray lashed the guests who were sat on the rear bench in front of the sun pad .
There hair do’s were ruined and they were showered in salt water spray .

The skipper dropped it down to D where it bobbed up and down roller coaster like .

Mean while in the Itama we just glided past as if nothing sea state wise was happing .
Wife ( and dog ) sat in the same eq position at the rear of our cockpit infront of the sun pads .
27 knots shot passed .

It’s because the V is carried forwards enough to cut not bounce , the weights CoG is centre so not as much pitching .Our for foot gets to cut .Sure I might have had full flap down to get more bow to cut .
The bulbous bow keeps the nose from diving in too deep and little bit of Carolina flair sends the spray sideways NOT into the cockpit .

It was just a unremarkable ride home for us .

For the Van Dutch a horrible ride .

No one can inc the VD charter guys intended this or fwd predict and cancel .
It was only 8 miles or so across Cannes Bay .

Iam sure if the waves were closer together so s not to catch the middle / pancake flat ( relatively to a Ray Hunt esq design ) stern …..taking the fine forefoot out of the equation it would have been more comfortable and he could have planned back reasonably dry .

But they were caught out ,

And it’s this type of thing I suspect has prompted the OP to look around .

We are not talking some blue D speed expedition , + stabs Nordhaven chugging along at 6 knots .

Those peeps on the charter have a hotel or restaurant to go to in the evening .
That’s why the charter trade in and around Naples and the Balearics , Corsica ,Sardinia -, Sicily use Itama ….comfy ride back all berthed up by 5 pm regardless of the sea state .They know they can do it .

We don’t wanna be stuck @ anchor waiting for the white horses to disappear , returning at dusk nav lights on , berthing up while all around are eating there meals .We want to go when we please . Not be tied by sea state .That same sea state that ruins others day .

 

[marcochi76]

I would agree more or less with PYB's definition of "comfort": cruising when the boat is not really banging at the speed I am doing, and stuff is not being thrown over the place, and the crew is happily seated onboard.

If there are 1.5/2M of waves, I do not expect to eat pasta or drink tea. But I'd like to be able to maintain planning speed (if reduced) without slamming and risk of damaging the precious boat.
A sport boat is "sporty".

I personally like Itama's open boat design, but they are too limited in use. A modern HardTop boat defintely offer another level of comfort.
We understand the perfect boat does not exist, also because we have different definition of perfection.

Also, I understand the concept of high deadrise. But we must accept that this come at the expense of higher consumption, bigger engines, heavier, bigger maintenance cost, ...
So looking for a good compromise is to me the best solution.

Pershings in the likes of P52 or P50 match a lot of boxes. But they show their age.
I do not consider at all the 5X, IPS, stupid design with door, ...

@MapisM : what boat do you have that seems to have nothing to envy to an Itama?

 

[marcochi76]

PS: I love being on the sea. I come from a family of sailors and I am used to go out even during the winter looking for nice winds (and thus accustomed to the associated waves).
I live my power boat the same way. Even during winter, I like to go out just for the purpose of being out on the sea.
And run over the waves is part of the fun. As long as the situation remains safe.

This summer I was one of the very few boats that were out on the sea on Aug 15th in Corsica, navigating from Santa Teresa di Gallura to Macinaggio, under a black sky, hoping it was going to be just a heavy rain... but I was later caught in the middle of a violent storm (the same one that sent few boats on the beach in Porto Baratti) and thus I had to find rescue in the small port of Cala Taverna.
A violent wind from north created in less than 10min waves of +2m. Impossible to keep a safe speed.

To be honest, the following day I knew that even a Riva of 25m (navigating probably 10-15miles behind me) had to turn 180° and find rescue in Solenzara.

 

[MapisM]

@MapisM : what boat do you have that seems to have nothing to envy to an Itama?

The boat of the Valletta-Genoa delivery I previously mentioned wasn't mine, and it's irrelevant anyhow.
It was just to clarify what I consider a comfortable cruising, which I accept can be subjective.

Regardless, I'm not sure of what you mean by nothing to envy to Itamas. See, they are the problem child of Ferretti Group, and have been for ages, because nobody buys those niche boats anymore, for the very good reason you also mentioned.
Which BTW created a dog chasing its own tail situation, since FG have throw in the towel and have not invested a penny on the brand and their boats for years.
So, in this respect it's fair to say that Itamas have a lot to envy to most of their competitors, not the other way round.
When all is said and done, THIS is the proof of the pudding that throws all debates on comfort, deadrise, etc. out of the window.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

The boat of the Valletta-Genoa delivery I previously mentioned wasn't mine, and it's irrelevant anyhow.
It was just to clarify what I consider a comfortable cruising, which I accept can be subjective.

Regardless, I'm not sure of what you mean by nothing to envy to Itamas. See, they are the problem child of Ferretti Group, and have been for ages, because nobody buys those niche boats anymore, for the very good reason you also mentioned.
Which BTW created a dog chasing its own tail situation, since FG have throw in the towel and have not invested a penny on the brand and their boats for years.
So, in this respect it's fair to say that Itamas have a lot to envy to most of their competitors, not the other way round.
When all is said and done, THIS is the proof of the pudding that throws all debates on comfort, deadrise, etc. out of the window.

I am not sure I agree with this statement. Yes Itama is a niche brand, but FG made it a problem because they are not investing in it since a decade plus.
It is a brand you have to understand, niche, even in Amati times it was like that.
They had the success in the first FG years (110 sold Forty, 50+ of FiftyFives in four years etc), and then it really slowed in the Monti times.
They have a gap to fill 12 to 19 to 23 meters. They had that Fifty model flop and since then had not done much.
Itama as history goes, is one of the most important brands of FG; third behind Riva and CRN.
Some similar boats like the Van Dutch are selling well, so I never understand why FG never tries to make a model between the 45 and 62, which has always been a strong size for Itama.
Norberto Ferretti never wanted the brand, I do not imagine he did not like it, but in these things sometimes it is just business, and for him Itama was not a competitor to any of his brands.
They still sell ten to twenty a year most of them sold by the Corsican and Sardinian dealers.

As for success goes a month ago, I was in the Costa Smeralda Sardinia and its opposite coast in Corsica and Itama still dominates a lot.
I actually was surprised how many Itama's there is in the area. Bonifacio Itama first followed by Blue Game, Porto Vecchio, Itama followed by Prestige, Porto Cervo Itama followed by Toy Marine, Porto Rotondo Itama followed by Toy Marine, Postisco Itama followed Blue Game. The only exception was Gallura were Pershing and Princess dominated the harbour.

Yes if you want to cook while cruising with a planning boat; I was correct 200% you brought brandy to a wine tasting competition.
The thread was about planning boats.

 

[Portofino]

The boat of the Valletta-Genoa delivery I previously mentioned wasn't mine, and it's irrelevant anyhow.
It was just to clarify what I consider a comfortable cruising, which I accept can be subjective.

Regardless, I'm not sure of what you mean by nothing to envy to Itamas. See, they are the problem child of Ferretti Group, and have been for ages, because nobody buys those niche boats anymore, for the very good reason you also mentioned.
Which BTW created a dog chasing its own tail situation, since FG have throw in the towel and have not invested a penny on the brand and their boats for years.
So, in this respect it's fair to say that Itamas have a lot to envy to most of their competitors, not the other way round.
When all is said and done, THIS is the proof of the pudding that throws all debates on comfort, deadrise, etc. out of the window.

Complete rubbish .
Your coast guard has been buying a revised 50 hull …FG done a lot of work winning that .
The others 45 , 62, 75 are selling very well in fact there’s been a up tick across the range .
Various of interiors , pantograph doors from the screen , various engine NVH etc etc .
They are made at the Forli site in alongside Pershing. When an order comes in they just sub a Itama on the line .
They arn’t cheap so have buyers who know boats , experienced buyers .Not newbies .

It’s because they can navigate in seas comfortably where others ( fancy more examples ) fail .

Edit Monty had a Rosso Corsa Itama 62 when he was dabbling with boats and racing cars .

They are mostly sold to villa owners or charter guys in the tourist hot spots .

 

[marcochi76]

I can confirm, a lot of Itama in Costa Smeralda, but I think for 2 main reasons:
They are good for charter
They are a lot of owners from Roma, who love sport boats (Itama, Rizzardi, XL Marine, Tornado, …).
But also a lot of Baia on Arnesons.

Out of curiosity: a brand that never comes mentioned on the forum is Sarnico.
I thought they made great boats.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I can confirm, a lot of Itama in Costa Smeralda, but I think for 2 main reasons:
They are good for charter
They are a lot of owners from Roma, who love sport boats (Itama, Rizzardi, XL Marine, Tornado, …).
But also a lot of Baia on Arnesons.

Out of curiosity: a brand that never comes mentioned on the forum is Sarnico.
I thought they made great boats.

Yes Sarnico are nice boats. Flatish Vee aft, but nice bow entry what is typical of Riva hull of the eighties.
Quality is super high tough. A Sarnico is more a Riva then a Riva, as up until 2010 the workforce of Sarnico was all coming from Riva (80s).
Sarnico was founded by Gervasoni, x-Riva GM and the one who started the production of Riva GRP boats in the seventies, and continued doing it till 1991.
In 1992 he founded Sarnico, which he sold in 1999 to Foresti of Mase Generators fame.

Sarnico are also usually better balanced then Riva, a Sarnico 45 really navigates well, and also the 50.
It is obvious that since they are flattish Vee aft (about ten degrees), you will have to go a bit slower in rough sea conditions.

 

[marcochi76]

thanks @PowerYachtBlog for sharing your huge knowledge!

 

[MapisM]

Complete rubbish .
Your coast guard has been buying a revised 50 hull …FG done a lot of work winning that .

I'll save you the time to look for a reliable source confirming what you are saying, also because there's only one.
Which is the Coast Guard website, where they must publish all tender notices.
Here it is:
https://www.guardiacostiera.gov.it/trasparenza/Pages/bandi-di-gara-e-contratti.aspx
Now, point me to the tender you are referring to if you can, and I will STFU.
Goes without saying that if you can't, I'm expecting you to reciprocate.

 

[MapisM]

Yes if you want to cook while cruising with a planning boat; I was correct 200% you brought brandy to a wine tasting competition.
The thread was about planning boats.

W, I can assure you that my wife spent more than an hour in the galley, using both the cooktop and the oven, when we brought the DP to Sardinia from Sicily.
A 200Nm leg, give or take, all made at about 20 to 22 kts.
But she couldn't do that because there's anything magic with our boat.
There are three very simple reasons why she could: conditions, conditions, conditions.

The Malta-Genoa delivery trip I previously mentioned was a job to be done, therefore we had to take the rough with the smooth.
But that's NOT what pleasure boating is about.
For the delivery trip of my own boat from Venice to Sardinia, with no deadlines to meet, it took me the best part of a month, stopping and/or cruising depending only on the mood and the weather.
Cherry picking the right conditions is what pleasure boating is all about, not cherry picking the boat.

 

[Portofino]

I'll save you the time to look for a reliable source confirming what you are saying, also because there's only one.
Which is the Coast Guard website, where they must publish all tender notices.
Here it is:
https://www.guardiacostiera.gov.it/trasparenza/Pages/bandi-di-gara-e-contratti.aspx
Now, point me to the tender you are referring to if you can, and I will STFU.
Goes without saying that if you can't, I'm expecting you to reciprocate.

Here ok the police but my point still stands the FG group have invested and actually used the Itama hull mould .
It’s just got a different top on ( superstructure) and latest green tech eco esq machinery from MAN .
Your gov ( well the police side ) are running round in modded versions of ITAMA 50 and have a pipeline of production .
The fact I from memory called them coast guard instead of the police does not matter the point still stands re FG investment and indeed further more about the basic seakeeping premise being a few steps above the competition
Just to be clear it’s not a military/ official / boat manufactured re modded into a civil version it’s what was a civi version modded into to gov use .

You claimed the6 hadn’t spent on investment……well they turned the 50 hull mould into this .
“ won that contact “ surly that’s a great testament.I am sure everyone reading this will take that as a compliment to the seakeeping, a positive endearment ….”.if it’s good enough for them “ who can’t choose the sea states …..then “ I want one “

Or was it the t,otger way round the police said “ next time we procure another patrol boat ….let speak to the Itama factory first “ ?
Would have thought your maritime police from experience know a thing or two about boats .

How ever your marine police arrived at this point they are running round in Itama s . It’s wasn’t chance …pulling boat names out of a hat .

Ferretti Security Division - N800 - Fast Patrol Boat EN

Edit go to the 2 nd vid folks for boat factory porn ….see the hull of the Itama .

 

[Portofino]

Sorry folks MapishM is gonna argue it’s not anything to do with Itama …..

N800: the new Carabinieri Fast Patrol Vessel by FSD - EDR Magazine

 

[Portofino]

thanks @PowerYachtBlog for sharing your huge knowledge!

He’s the one who put me onto Itama btw .
This was after various brokers ( even our local SS dealer ) and the Riva dealer in Monaco signposted me .
It was nice to get another independent opinion.

Encyclopaedic knowledge.