Best seakeeping boat 40-48feet

[PowerYachtBlog]

The Targa 50/53 is not a bad hull.
If I remember well it was the last Olesinski hull for Fairline always saw it as pulling a bit too much water forward (noticable in the video), something you find more on yachts above twenty meters then 15/16.

 

[marcochi76]

How would the T53 compare to a Princess V53? Speaking only of seakeeping.

 

[Portofino]

How would the T53 compare to a Princess V53? Speaking only of seakeeping.

Get the dead rise figures .

No matter how many times you frame the seakeeping Q in this size range the answer doesn’t change .

Compare them with 22-25 for Itama , Magnum , Otam to see how far off you are .
Or conversely look the three examples ^ to find the best fit to your apparent “ hotel “ conundrum.

Anything else seakeeping wise esp a U.K.” floating hotel” with relatively sluggish performance I ll happy add , is just kicking your request into the long grass .

You will just a have bigger and more expensive boat with the same issue ……limited by sea states for pleasant usage .
Overly restrictive by sea states . Maybe slightly better only by its size + mass .But not better enough from what you already have to sensibly justify the change up ….if you are REALLY into seakeeping ?

 

[marcochi76]

I know, I know what you mean Porto
But I remain convinced that it is possible to find a rare jewel that would represent a good compromise between Hotel and a Magnum.

Few examples that I retain in this discussion:
Pershing 50: deadrise 22deg very heavy, solid boat.
Rizzardi 45 and the more recent InFive built with performance in mind. But only 15deg deadrise at the stern. So I am doubtful.
Even a targa47, with its 18deg deadrise would not be bad, but it’s too old.

Very few recent (post 2015) 50foot HT are on shaft:
T53, V53/v56, Pershing50, Predator50.
Others?

Azimut Atlantis: all IPS
Cranchi: IPS
Sessa: IPS
Airon Marine: IPS

Rizzardi is launching a new 53foot open on shaft (GR 53) let’s see. But it is no HT

XL Marine proposes a HT version of the XL51. I saw it this summer in Porto Rotondo. It also had Arnesons.
But at that point, I prefer an Itama.

Sarnico boats were nice, well balanced with centrally positioned engines. But they stopped production years ago.

You see: not easy.
But I continue my research.

 

[marcochi76]

Targa53: 12.5deg deadrise aft (that sounds too flat…strange)
V53: 18 deg deadrise aft

 

[MapisM]

Targa53: 12.5deg deadrise aft (that sounds too flat…strange)

If you're referring to the boat in the Bulleri video, that just can't be true.
According to that video, the efficiency of the boat (max speed for weight/size/power installed) is rather low - almost embarrassingly so, frankly.
And while I guess it's possible to build a flat and inefficient hull, that's MUCH more typical of deep vee boats.
A boat like that, with a 12.5deg deadrise hull, should reach the high 30s without sweating.
The fact that she barely reached 32 kts in the test suggests a much higher deadrise.

 

[MapisM]

You will just a have bigger and more expensive boat with the same issue ……limited by sea states for pleasant usage.

A remarkable tautology, if I've ever seen one.
Pleasant use of boats is by definition limited by sea state, rather than the type of boat. Has always been, and will always be.
Even accepting that some boats can withstand really rough seas better than others (a difference which, if you restrict the choice to planing boats, is so marginal to be practically irrelevant in the choice of going out or not), that is a situation which can only be described as pleasant by a masochist.

 

[marcochi76]

I know it sounds wrong
But it comes from Fairline website

http://fairline.com/wp-content/uplo...Targa-53-GT-2018MY-Standard-Specification.pdf

 

[MapisM]

I know it sounds wrong
But it comes from Fairline website

Urgh, that's puzzling. I mean, these guys, many years earlier, produced the Squadron 58.
A flybridge with no sporty ambitions whatsoever, but with a 18° deadrise and capable of 28kts cruise/33+ WOT (as tested by MBY back in 2001).
Much heavier and larger, and with just marginally higher power engines.
Makes one wonder what's wrong with that T53...

 

[Portofino]

A remarkable tautology, if I've ever seen one.
Pleasant use of boats is by definition limited by sea state, rather than the type of boat. Has always been, and will always be.
Even accepting that some boats can withstand really rough seas better than others (a difference which, if you restrict the choice to planing boats, is so marginal to be practically irrelevant in the choice of going out or not), that is a situation which can only be described as pleasant by a masochist.

The difference ain’t marginal with true deep V s and mid engined for better balance ( pitch ing resistance) .

Every degree of deadrise make a noticeable difference like for like size wise .

In the vertical movement equation and slamming the dead rise number is either squared or cubed ? I can’t remember the exact equation but the maths stack up with regard vertical movements.

The downside and there is one is the increase in drag manifest itself in extra fuel burn ( I have already told the op this further up ^ ) .The three builders Itama , Magnum , Otam get around the drag by fitting massive for he L , by comparison engines ie up the Hp .
By way of comparison let’s use your already Sq 58 , with D12 Volvo s 715 Hp .The 14 M Itama 42 has 710 MAN s with a 4.2 beam , 23 degree deadrise .
Todays Itama 62 ( long bathing platforms) really same size hull as a Sq 58 or this new Fairline 62 has MAN V12 1400 s

The Otam / magnum “ cousins “ with dead rises above 20 , the true definition of deep V btw , around 60 ft also have similiar hps to the Ferretti group Itama / Riva 60 s ish boats .

The hull form of the three brands I tossed into the mix are basically derivatives of old school racing boats from the 70 s
You know Monaco to Venice , Miami to key largo .They are just enlarged up to add the “ hotel “ bits the op is craving for .
Underneath they can and do navigate comfortably in leisure use sea states that others ( rivals ) find uncomfortable.

A marked difference . That’s the point of this thread .

Show season is soon upon us ……@ the Op ….pop along to Cannes or Genoa they have a Itama 62 RS and blag a ride out .

PYB and myself have accepted kind invites ( hospitality) from FG @ Genoa on the 19 th .Speak to the dealers all of them and blag wet rides out .See for yourself the “ differences “

 

[Portofino]

If you're referring to the boat in the Bulleri video, that just can't be true.
According to that video, the efficiency of the boat (max speed for weight/size/power installed) is rather low - almost embarrassingly so, frankly.
And while I guess it's possible to build a flat and inefficient hull, that's MUCH more typical of deep vee boats.
A boat like that, with a 12.5deg deadrise hull, should reach the high 30s without sweating.
The fact that she barely reached 32 kts in the test suggests a much higher deadrise.

I got 42 .3 knots out of a 70 hrs Itama 62 @ 2300 rpm on V 12 1400 ( Monaco show ) a few yrs back . 22 degree deadrise .

Probably 2 or even 3 X the fuel burn of the Fail line 62 . Who cares ?

 

[MapisM]

The hull form of the three brands I tossed into the mix are basically derivatives of old school racing boats from the 70 s
You know Monaco to Venice , Miami to key largo .They are just enlarged up to add the “ hotel “ bits the op is craving for .
Underneath they can and do navigate comfortably in leisure use sea states that others ( rivals ) find uncomfortable.

Nope, they can not.
It's true that when Ray Hunt etc. designed deep vee hulls they were targeting offshore endurance racing, but the rationale is that this allowed to raise the bar above which a boat hitting a wave at high speed falls apart.
Comfort has never been part of that equation.
Just ask Buzzi and his mates, who after establishing the new Monaco-Venice record were so exhausted to not realize they were heading towards the rocks - as they did, sadly.
And apropos of that very same 1300+ Nm race, back in 1991 a DP52 (a flybridge whose plain vanilla 16° hull was the precursor of my boat) won that race in her category, averaging 30+ kts - go figure.
So, despite what deep vee fanboys say, for pleasure boating the bottleneck is NEVER the type of boat, let alone the hull deadrise.
The sea state is - together with the crew willingness to do something that has absolutely nothing to see with pleasure boating and comfort.
Now, if that's your thing, fine.
But if you pretend that a high deadrise can make comfortable a sea state which just isn't, you're having a laugh!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I know, I know what you mean Porto
But I remain convinced that it is possible to find a rare jewel that would represent a good compromise between Hotel and a Magnum.

Few examples that I retain in this discussion:
Pershing 50: deadrise 22deg very heavy, solid boat.
Rizzardi 45 and the more recent InFive built with performance in mind. But only 15deg deadrise at the stern. So I am doubtful.
Even a targa47, with its 18deg deadrise would not be bad, but it’s too old.

Very few recent (post 2015) 50foot HT are on shaft:
T53, V53/v56, Pershing50, Predator50.
Others?

Azimut Atlantis: all IPS
Cranchi: IPS
Sessa: IPS
Airon Marine: IPS

Rizzardi is launching a new 53foot open on shaft (GR 53) let’s see. But it is no HT

XL Marine proposes a HT version of the XL51. I saw it this summer in Porto Rotondo. It also had Arnesons.
But at that point, I prefer an Itama.

Sarnico boats were nice, well balanced with centrally positioned engines. But they stopped production years ago.

You see: not easy.
But I continue my research.

A rare jewel is the Maritimo. I think they close at 18 degrees, but are very well balanced.
They made the very nice X50 and X60 which did not give them the success, they thought they would get.
The X50 developed into the S55 with beach club type low to the water stern.

Molinari Airon Marine can build the 50 with shafts albeit with V-drives, I can speak to them if you want, and might manage to get you a good deal for it.

While deadrise is important I for example would say a Rizzardi 45 Incredible runs better then a Fairline Targa 47GT in my experience of both boats.

The Rizzardi 53 can be made with an open type three part hard-top. Rizzardi is very open to customization.

 

[marcochi76]

@PowerYachtBlog : do you have any info on the new RIzzardi GR53?
There are only 2 images available on the web:

 

[marcochi76]

A rare jewel is the Maritimo. I think they close at 18 degrees, but are very well balanced.
They made the very nice X50 and X60 which did not give them the success, they thought they would get.
The X50 developed into the S55 with beach club type low to the water stern.

I did not know this brand. Thanks for your suggestion

 

[Portofino]

Nope, they can not.
It's true that when Ray Hunt etc. designed deep vee hulls they were targeting offshore endurance racing, but the rationale is that this allowed to raise the bar above which a boat hitting a wave at high speed falls apart.
Comfort has never been part of that equation.
Just ask Buzzi and his mates, who after establishing the new Monaco-Venice record were so exhausted to not realize they were heading towards the rocks - as they did, sadly.
And apropos of that very same 1300+ Nm race, back in 1991 a DP52 (a flybridge whose plain vanilla 16° hull was the precursor of my boat) won that race in her category, averaging 30+ kts - go figure.
So, despite what deep vee fanboys say, for pleasure boating the bottleneck is NEVER the type of boat, let alone the hull deadrise.
The sea state is - together with the crew willingness to do something that has absolutely nothing to see with pleasure boating and comfort.
Now, if that's your thing, fine.
But if you pretend that a high deadrise can make comfortable a sea state which just isn't, you're having a laugh!

Yes they can and do .From first hand experience.

The ops asking for advise I propose those three Itama , Magnum , Otam in no particular order choose your “ hotel “ side.

There no where else to go upwards from a leisure pov blending “ hotel “ Med use with majoring on the seakeeping aspect , improving on his current boat ( which he’s enquiring ) by a markedly tangible difference, he will notice straight away when it blows up around the C d A and wider environs .

The fact they all share a true deep V defined as above 20 is no Co incidence .
You are right about “ not falling apart “ bit = might explain the old school Amarti 14 .7 M Itama fuelled up exceed 20 tonnes ….with hardly any superstructure mind . I think the 46 under also 15 m but a ft beamier tops the scales with its V8 800 s ( same motors as your boat ) at 24 tonnes ….sans superstructure.Again the low COG all helps to give a softer more comfortable motion at speed in a given sea state that others have throttled back . It’s the sum of the parts not just the dead rise and mid engine ness , You have to sum them all not just cherry pick one design feature .

How ever dead rise is a dead give away a quantifiable number .
Then motor position . Then CoG it’s needs to be low …….etc etc .
For speed you just add Hp fitting the biggest mothers that physically fit . Add more low down centred weight btw .

In evolutionary terms it’s called convergence ……from different starting points those three have ended up with very similar hull characteristics inc Ray Hunt , Don Aronow, +Jim Wayne , Theodali ( magnum ) and not forgetting Mario Amarti a few more .eg the Rizzardi guy ?

There’s no light bulb moments to be had or re invention of any wheels here .

The boats are out there that would satisfy the ops conundrum . Always have been .Tell me about them ?

 

[MapisM]

Yes they can and do .From first hand experience.

Can do what, exactly?
What I said they can't is "navigate comfortably in leisure use sea states that others find uncomfortable" (your wording).
A comfortable navigation in an uncomfortable sea state is a blatant oxymoron, that only exists in armchair talks and has bugger all to see with the type of boat you like better, let alone their deadrise, weight distribution, or whatever.

Then again, if the name of the game is come back home safely when caught with your pants down by an unpredicted storm, that's a wholly different situation, where comfort doesn't really matter anymore.
A situation where Magnums, Itamas and the likes are the very last boats anyone in his right mind would pick if given a choice, for very obvious reasons.

 

[Portofino]

Can do what, exactly?
What I said they can't is "navigate comfortably in leisure use sea states that others find uncomfortable" (your wording).
A comfortable navigation in an uncomfortable sea state is a blatant oxymoron, that only exists in armchair talks and has bugger all to see with the type of boat you like better, let alone their deadrise, weight distribution, or whatever.

Then again, if the name of the game is come back home safely when caught with your pants down by an unpredicted storm, that's a wholly different situation, where comfort doesn't really matter anymore.
A situation where Magnums, Itamas and the likes are the very last boats anyone in his right mind would pick if given a choice, for very obvious reasons.

This “ they can and do navigate comfortably in leisure use sea states that others ( rivals ) find uncomfortable.“
Loadsa times I have experienced this ….kept going while others have had to slow and end up at D speed bobbing up and down , because there hulls slammed at my speed .

A notable example a few yrs back at the GP returning back to La Napoule from Monaco the Sunseeker Pred 60 had to follow me in my wake with guest throwing up over the side .
The skipper ( one of the SS .Fr lads ) came round and thanked me for leading , calming it .
Meanwhile on my considerable smaller true deep V mid engined low Cog hull we were comfy un phased by the sea state .
Another coming round he cap d Antibes heading to Antibes a notorious wave hell spot for all sorts of reasons i n a blow I started to follow a Priny 20 or even 23 M ? - it slowed right down dropped off while we just glided by over took him .
I did look back and to me the ride of his boat n my mind looked worse ridding up and down the waves at D roller coaster ing .Maybe that show down was simply a protection from hard slamming busting the boat that you have eluded to ?
Or the passengers can’t stand the ride planning in that sea state . Anyhow he dropped off we slide past .

We could just carry one no need to throttle back at all and Mrs Porto is a gentle soul in terms of ride quality doesn’t like being bounced around when caught out .She wasn’t . The boat cut through didn’t ride over or slam .
Ok arguably a wetter ride being an open but in 35 degree air temps and 27 sea temps high summer who cares .

That was the reason we went down the Itama route .

Once I overhauled a formulite on here .He had a tripple Superhawk 50 , long narrow thing .
We were behind cruising at 30 knots the sea roughed up as we approached Cannes he was pitching and getting airborne ( later told me serious slamming ) so he dropped right off P to D .Meanwhile we just glided past without a care in the world . Never adjusted my throttles .Just went straight though it .
He put a thread on here a few yr back which centred on his CoG as he had just fitted a geny at the stern to add to the triple arnesons = masses of rearward weight = cocked up CoG . I think Don Sheard originally designed the SH as a double on stern drives for the CoG calcs . Adding a third unit - Arnesons + a big geny by an owner …..well that’s what happened.

Another a mate in a Porto 47 on IPS …..basically we couldn’t cruise in company as within min s across on the VHF came every time “ can you drop the revs please “ .This was because his boat in said given state was getting shaken to bits / slamming and he had a more tender Wife than mine .
And I was compromising my run at his cruise of 25/ 26 …..sea state meant to ride comfortably he was dropping to 22.

That’s no use to me down there I need-to be 24/25 min pref near 30 for best ride ……which it could do and keep Mrs Porto happy reading her book . So we couldn’t really cruise in company ….I used to let them set off an hour early say to St Tropez and still overhaul them .

I could go on but there’s no point trying to convince you an Italian that the owners of Otams , Magums , Itama ( largely fellow Italians - I was a outliner ) , your countrymen are wrong both the buyers and the builders going down the true deep V route .

I have given my advise based on experience to the op and others stuck wondering why the thing handles so badly sos to effect the enjoyment. Been in that place felt the huge difference the manufacturers hype stuff up and the reality once your cheques been cashed . Thanks Sunseeker !

I will leave you with this pic returning from St Trop one day ….

Although the sea state is calm …..this is pulling the other string on the deep V trio club bow , the oversized engines = speed . I am actually going through him (uni rowing days term )
Crept up behind at 28 knots my eco speed once he saw me sat in his wake a few hundred m back - he turned up the speed to 30 , so I mirrored him , them 32 then 33 / 34 he maxed and I pulled out of his wake and went straight past .

For sure he was 9issed .
Oh what a joy .Once a mile ahead I went in front so he could eat my wake …..he dropped right off assume back to 28 ? …so we just lengthened our lead back to Cannes way .

 

[MapisM]

I could go on

Please don't.
All I said is that in uncomfortable sea conditions there's no such thing as a boat that can turn them into comfortable.
You are insisting that you keep going no matter what, which is OK if that's what turns you on, but it's shifting the goalposts.
Besides, if what you're actually aiming at is bragging rights about your boat going above 34 kts in flat seas (is that your idea of fast cruising? Seriously?!? ), well, I'm not interested.

 

[Portofino]

Please don't.
All I said is that in uncomfortable sea conditions there's no such thing as a boat that can turn them into comfortable.
You are insisting that you keep going no matter what, which is OK if that's what turns you on, but it's shifting the goalposts.
Besides, if what you're actually aiming at is bragging rights about your boat going above 34 kts in flat seas (is that your idea of fast cruising? Seriously?!? ), well, I'm not interested.

You are just being awkward here .
I am not insisting on “ keeping going no matter what “ .Your words .
Mrs Porto and I assume Mrs Morochi76 are our canaries . They squeal if uncomfortable.

Those three Otam , magnum , Itama can keep going comfortably in the same sea states others have backed off .
Probably a couple more Rizzardi and I know the Riva 44 from experience. A. Pershing 50 ( shafts vs ) maybe will be a step up .

@ Op please try before buy this time !

You are wrong tell the guy or inferring those three are a much of a muchness in handling sea states , blow ups , and any difference is hardly noticeable.

My reasoning why they outperformed the stuff under 20 degrees deadrise and other reasons cited , might be wrong in your view + worth a debate but that doesn’t matter all he needs to know they do outperformed them to a sufficient level that will transform his boating experience for the better . That’s what he’s asking .

He needs to hunt down ( no pun intended ) a boat designed from Ray Hunts and others I have listed , to slice through not get into a situation where it’s lifted ,tendency to get airbourne ish and starts slamming .

There’s nothing else .A 18 degree boat will be ok but it’s not as good as a true deep V say 22 degree , it will throttle back sooner so get caught out more often .
A rear weight bias will pitch more uncomfortably than a mid engined boat , a top heavy read FB will wallow about more leading to a sea sickness tendency .

If a 14 degree pancake flat slammer + 4 = a 18 degree great sea boat ( sq 58 ? ) makes a huge noticeable difference in ride comfort ( universally recognised and reported by journos ) then I am telling you now the difference just keeps on coming when you move from 18 to 22 degrees , or in my case 23 .