Berthing under sail.

[lustyd]

Good luck!

I am reminded of a story (from Libby Purvis I think?) where she had made an overnight passage and was woken by some lads partying on a nearby boat. She stuck her head out if the hatch and yelled at them to be quiet as some people actually went sailing. She then discovered that they had just arrived from a transatlantic crossing.

Be careful who you tell how to use their anchor might be one suggestion? Of course if some maniac is bouncing off people's pride and joy as they sail without control jn the vicinity of other boats I can imagine some choice language as their insurance details are requested.

As I said, I'd only be saying that to someone who had had engine failure and was sailing into a busy marina - the sort of person who ought to have anchored outside but clearly hadn't thought of it. In this case I would obviously be polite, but the ones who just decided to "sharpen their skills" in a busy marina would receive a quite different chat, although admittedly with some words similar to anchor being used...

 

[marklucas]

I regularly sail onto pontoons and buoys or anchor under sail.

As previously mentioned, it keeps the skills up and can be immensely satisfying. If the location is confined, I will have the engine idling just in case.

Once I sailed a yacht onto the mid-river pontoons in the Truro River - had lunch - and then sailed off - its so open I didn't have the engine running. There was clearly a school boat on the other side of the pontoon - couldn't help hearing the comment from the instructor; "That's how to do it."

 

[lustyd]

I regularly sail onto pontoons and buoys or anchor under sail.

As previously mentioned, it keeps the skills up and can be immensely satisfying. If the location is confined, I will have the engine idling just in case.

Once I sailed a yacht onto the mid-river pontoons in the Truro River - had lunch - and then sailed off - its so open I didn't have the engine running. There was clearly a school boat on the other side of the pontoon - couldn't help hearing the comment from the instructor; "That's how to do it."

That's the point though, there is a world of difference between sailing up to an open pontoon in the middle of an open river and sailing into the inner basin at Falmouth Marina headed for your berth on the inside of B pontoon. I've sailed onto the pontoon youre talking about and it's very easy and safe to do so. Even if I felt confident though, I would never sail into Falmouth Marina even if I had a problem. There are hundreds of buoys outside, good holding in Falmouth for an anchor, or the end arrivals pontoons if you have a problem, and if not then use the engine just in case you damage someone else's pride and joy.

 

[chrisedwards]

Most of us can sail into the tightest of berths - its obvious from previous posts that we will not take the risk and therefore do not do it and never improve.

Maneuvering under sail is all about calculating safety margins - with the required safety margin the risk is acceptable and then we do it - and learn.

The junk rig gives an enormous safety margin - for many reasons eg. the sails drop in an instant regardless of attitude to the wind.

So with the junk rig you improve and improve and improve from constant berthing under sail.

 

[marklucas]

That's the point though, there is a world of difference between sailing up to an open pontoon in the middle of an open river and sailing into the inner basin at Falmouth Marina headed for your berth on the inside of B pontoon. I've sailed onto the pontoon youre talking about and it's very easy and safe to do so. Even if I felt confident though, I would never sail into Falmouth Marina even if I had a problem. There are hundreds of buoys outside, good holding in Falmouth for an anchor, or the end arrivals pontoons if you have a problem, and if not then use the engine just in case you damage someone else's pride and joy.

I would respectfully disagree - I've sailed onto a finger pontoon in Berthon Marina in Lymington several times - and you only get one shot at it!

I used the Truro River example to try and encourage people to give it a go - the space there means there should be no risk - and it's an absolutely horrible place to have lunch on a nice summer's day.

 

[lustyd]

I would respectfully disagree - I've sailed onto a finger pontoon in Berthon Marina in Lymington several times - and you only get one shot at it!

I used the Truro River example to try and encourage people to give it a go - the space there means there should be no risk - and it's an absolutely horrible place to have lunch on a nice summer's day.

A poor example indeed - Berthon has a wider gap between pontoons than Truro river! Even so, I would question why you felt the need to put (at Berthon) millions of pounds worth of other peoples property at risk just because you thought you would make it in unscathed. You may feel confident, but mother nature has a few tricks up her sleeve to slap you quickly back to reality.

 

[marklucas]

A poor example indeed - Berthon has a wider gap between pontoons than Truro river! Even so, I would question why you felt the need to put (at Berthon) millions of pounds worth of other peoples property at risk just because you thought you would make it in unscathed. You may feel confident, but mother nature has a few tricks up her sleeve to slap you quickly back to reality.

Again I would respectfully disagree. OK you had to be there, but a SW F3 against 1/2 knot of ebb tide under just furling jib - which was furled 50 yards before reaching the downriver finger berth. Braked using one (of two buckets) tied to the transom, engine ticking over just in case.

I would argue this was safer than using only the motor as I had a back up - as glider pilots say "My engine can't fail."

 

[Fascadale]

If the subtext of your question that you may be thinking of having a go yourself, then I would say tha most important piece of advice is:
Tide......be very wary if it is strong, particularly if the wind is fickle. As you stall up to the buoy there is often only one short window to pick it up. A low windage, deep, heavyish boat helps a great deal.

This is good advice.

I did once hear of an extremely experienced YMI on the west coast of Scotland who would once in a while demonstrate that it was possible to sail backwards onto a pontoon, in the right conditions and with a good crew. I believe Croabh Haven was the preferred venue, in a Pioneer 10

Truly impressive.

 

[fireball]

A poor example indeed - Berthon has a wider gap between pontoons than Truro river! Even so, I would question why you felt the need to put (at Berthon) millions of pounds worth of other peoples property at risk just because you thought you would make it in unscathed. You may feel confident, but mother nature has a few tricks up her sleeve to slap you quickly back to reality.

Do you set sail within the moorings or do you rely on your single engine? We risk hitting someone else's "pride and joy" as you put it all the time - even when she's tied up she's at risk of breaking free rote mast coming down. It's a matter of degree isn't it ...
Sensible sailing into a berth is fine if you know your limits - what is fine for some is utter madness for others - but that's just because they have different levels of ability in sailing their vessel...

In my RS400 I'd sail into just about any berth you gave me ... Not that I have any choice - it's a racing dinghy ... I wouldn't in my Bav as I'm not as practiced at sailing her. But given the right w ind, tide and crew then I would consider it

 

[BruceDanforth]

I have sailed onto long pontoons in the past and on and off moorings. it's not practical for the high sided basin where my berth is for various reasons including the need to get a bridge opened.

 

[lustyd]

Do you set sail within the moorings or do you rely on your single engine? We risk hitting someone else's "pride and joy" as you put it all the time - even when she's tied up she's at risk of breaking free rote mast coming down. It's a matter of degree isn't it ...
Sensible sailing into a berth is fine if you know your limits - what is fine for some is utter madness for others - but that's just because they have different levels of ability in sailing their vessel...

In my RS400 I'd sail into just about any berth you gave me ... Not that I have any choice - it's a racing dinghy ... I wouldn't in my Bav as I'm not as practiced at sailing her. But given the right w ind, tide and crew then I would consider it

Not talking about moorings though. As I said earlier I am quite happy to sail onto a mooring or a pontoon just not in a busy marina.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Last boat at 24' regularly, it was easier than starting the engine. Present boat 30m2 main running backstays no, have not even sailed up the river yet...

Still getting up to speed with stowing the main (no stack pack just manual stowing) and headsail (tough luff, no roller reefing) in short order (normally only 2 up)...

Given time I am sure one will follow the other, although our home berth is fenders out both sides (to open gaps if required) and 2-5 point turn under engine to get into open waters so just not possible under sail...

The boat does matter. My efforts in the YM prep were in a Benny First, a **** boat in most respects but easy to handle like a dinghy. At that time I had a Prout cat myself and whilst I did once come alongside a pontoon in it under sail with engine failure, I would not have done so voluntarily - it simply wasnt a handy boat. Turning circle of the QE2|!

IMO It's not clever or manly but willie waving to routinely handle under sail at close quarters. One thing you cant do under sail is stop quickly or reverse . Couple of years ago wlilst moored in the Helford we had one plonker come downwind through the moored boats under full sail and with a fair bgreeze blowing. It was stupid - what happend if some kids in a tender suddenly appear from behind a moored boat? Or a moored boat swings in the breeze? I got cursed by posters on here for saying so but in my view the guy concerned was irresponsible.

 

[chrisedwards]

Surely one can anticipate blind spots and moored boats turning - and factor them into calculating your safety margin? - (see my earlier post). Full sail downwind is questionable unless it is a junk when you can drop sail in an instant regardless of attitude to wind. (see my earlier post). This is why the junk sail is so good for developing experience - it gives you the safety margin to practice. Factor -not being able to stop quickly- into your safety margin - (eg.I have three anchors instantly ready for letting go - in drain pipes and having an escape route))

Trying to be clever, manly and willie waving??? What about just fantastic fun and incredibly satisfying? Just get those safety margins right.

The boat does matter. My efforts in the YM prep were in a Benny First, a **** boat in most respects but easy to handle like a dinghy. At that time I had a Prout cat myself and whilst I did once come alongside a pontoon in it under sail with engine failure, I would not have done so voluntarily - it simply wasnt a handy boat. Turning circle of the QE2|!

IMO It's not clever or manly but willie waving to routinely handle under sail at close quarters. One thing you cant do under sail is stop quickly or reverse . Couple of years ago wlilst moored in the Helford we had one plonker come downwind through the moored boats under full sail and with a fair bgreeze blowing. It was stupid - what happend if some kids in a tender suddenly appear from behind a moored boat? Or a moored boat swings in the breeze? I got cursed by posters on here for saying so but in my view the guy concerned was irresponsible.

 

[Woodlouse]

Back in the true days of sail you mostly anchored, picked up a mooring or beached with legs. All of which are relatively straight forward manuvers under sail. If you did go alongside then the odds are it was done by warping. Sailing in wouldn't have been uncommon, but only when conditions suited. As mentioned some harbours were much emptier then than now, but who has seen pictures of the old fishing ports at the turn of the century?

Personally I haven't sailed onto a pontoon since I did my Yachtmaster. I frequently sail onto moorings and on and off the anchor simply because its fun. I've warped out of tight spaces that I couldn't have done even with the engine and if I had to enter a marina engineless then I'd anchor as close as feasible and then warp in since 13 tons carries its way with steadfast determination, especially in light airs, stopping in a crowded marina is sometimes worrying at the best of times.

 

[jrc1983]

Busy marina? How it used to be......

 

[flaming]

There is an old story of the first Thames Barge to get an Engine. The first trip with the Engine was up to London, and the skipper motored all the way. However when he got there he hoisted sail to berth as he didn't know how to come alongside under engine.

It's just what you're used to I guess, and there are probably very few Yachtsmen out there who are well practiced at coming into a finger pontoon under sail. Hammerhead or other long pontoon are obviously a different matter.

 

[fireball]

Not talking about moorings though. As I said earlier I am quite happy to sail onto a mooring or a pontoon just not in a busy marina.

Then it's just a matter of conditions, ability and capability.

I've sailed an rc laser within a marina - no problem - but I'd think twice about a 38' Bavaria - so somewhere in between is the cutoff where I'd change from happily sailing to probably not.

 

[lustyd]

Then it's just a matter of conditions, ability and capability.

I've sailed an rc laser within a marina - no problem - but I'd think twice about a 38' Bavaria - so somewhere in between is the cut-off where I'd change from happily sailing to probably not.

The problem is that ability is subjective, and the point at which you find out you are not good enough to berth under sail in a busy marina with a wind shift is the point at which you damage someone else's boat. I don't understand why people are so adamant that they should sail in to a marina. If you have an engine then use it just in case. There is no need to prove your skills to anyone, and if you feel the need to practice sailing to a pontoon then do it on an empty one away from other boats.

 

[chrisedwards]

Assessment of our ability is always subjective but that does not stop us. This has nothing to do with proving ourselves, being manly, waving willies or all the other accusations in this post. It is all about the joy of developing skills in an activity we love. Otherwise why have sails at all? Surely maneuvering under sail in close quarters is one of the pinnacles of our sport? We just have to make sure we do not hit anything and that comes down to good judgement based on experience.

A junk rig allows you to gain that experience - it gives you a much larger safety margin - see earlier posts.

The problem is that ability is subjective, and the point at which you find out you are not good enough to berth under sail in a busy marina with a wind shift is the point at which you damage someone else's boat. I don't understand why people are so adamant that they should sail in to a marina. If you have an engine then use it just in case. There is no need to prove your skills to anyone, and if you feel the need to practice sailing to a pontoon then do it on an empty one away from other boats.

 

[LymingtonPugwash]

I can think of around 15 times I've had to sail into marina berths with yachts from around 33' to 94' over the last 30 years or so and although I can't remember the exact number or situations, what I do remember very well is being totally pee'd off that every time I've done it beautifully, nobody has been around to see it!
There must be some unwritten law of the sea that when we do amazing things impressively well, the world seems to be deserted or looking the other way, yet the moment we screw up in the slightest, the whole world is there watching and recording it! ...... Never mind, it's enough that we know how well we've done! Yeh, right!