Beginning to think we need a bigger boat

BurnitBlue

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I really envy those lucky (or clever) skippers that only ever bought one boat because they were totally satisfied with their first choice. They must be rare because I know of only one, Les Powles. Three circumnavigations plus liveaboarding marina, anchoring or ocean. Ticked all his boxes.
 

johnalison

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Yes it's cube for those dimensions, but not as regards cost. They don't go up with displacement, but something a little less, like the square.
The building of small boats, like small cars, is relatively uneconomic, which distorts things a bit for new boats but i think that in the second hand market the cube rule would be nearer the mark.
 

Dutch01527

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I agree that the main issue with larger boats is berthing, especially when short handed. My experience is that the running cost differences are not as massive as is sometimes suggested. Maybe 50% more for a 40 foot boat than a 30 foot boat. A new chart plotter or windlass costs about the same or slightly more on a big boat but not massively so for example. Berthing is per meter. Insurance maybe double at most. Talking about costs being cubed for a increase in length needs a bit of maths revision. £1,000 cubed is £1 billion.

To me the choice depends on how you will use it. Long distance, live aboard or large numbers of people need a bigger boat. Coastal harbour hopping usually with 2 or 4 people means that something a little smaller makes a lot of sense.

I do not think that it is a coincidence that smaller boats seem to get used a lot more. Most of the 45 foot plus boats moored near me in Dartmouth seem to be used by as a floating holiday cottage with very occasional summer trips. Nothing wrong with that but I suspect that size makes people reluctant to venture out locally, too much effort.
 
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doug748

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Are you sure it's a marketing wheeze? It might be a cost cutting exercise, or an unnecessary complication? ... I'm sure it's not a more efficient design made possible by detailed computer modelling combined with modern materials and construction techniques - providing todays cruisers and charter customers with products they want at prices they can afford .... can't possibly be that. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

You may have grasped the point here. The more excitable commentators never quite see that all boats are a compromise and go to silly extremes to invent reasons for us to be amazed by their enthusiasms.

........I do not think that it is a coincidence that smaller boats seem to get used a lot more. Most of the 45 foot plus boats moored near me seem to be used by as a floating holiday cottage with very occasional summer trips. Nothing wrong with that but I suspect that the size makes people reluctant to venture out locally.

Yes, I have always felt that (generally) the bigger the boat the less sailing you do, the less you can be arsed to raise sail, the less it is "worth it" to leave the marina. Bigger boats are more likely to need a crew, more likely to be very comfortable motoring at 7 kts and less handy in light airs. You have to have very good reason to buy a big boat.


.
 
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lustyd

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Maybe 50% more for a 40 foot boat than a 30 foot boat
30 footer with an 11m mast needs a 10mm halyard of 26m = £65
40 footer with a 13m mast needs a 12mm halyard of 31m = 108.50

Each has 4 halyards so £260 vs £434 and that's assuming doublebraid and ignoring the other 20 lines on board, all of which are longer and thicker on the bigger boat.

30 footer has LWL 8m x beam 3m = 24sq m antifoul = £89.95
40 footer has LWL 10m x beam 4m = 40sq m antifoul = £179.90

That's just two regular consumable items but the list goes on in a similar manner.
 

dgadee

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30 footer with an 11m mast needs a 10mm halyard of 26m = £65
40 footer with a 13m mast needs a 12mm halyard of 31m = 108.50

Each has 4 halyards so £260 vs £434 and that's assuming doublebraid and ignoring the other 20 lines on board, all of which are longer and thicker on the bigger boat.

30 footer has LWL 8m x beam 3m = 24sq m antifoul = £89.95
40 footer has LWL 10m x beam 4m = 40sq m antifoul = £179.90

That's just two regular consumable items but the list goes on in a similar manner.
Depends on the boat. My 30 footer has a 13m mast, 4m boom. Halyards and main probably same cost as a 40 footer. Certainly less antifoul.

Putting a new engine into it would not have been much more expensive than if it was a 30hp rather than a 20hp.

The real difference is mooring prices I think. The 30 footer with twin keels can be located where a fin keeled 40 footer wouldn't really fit.
 

Snowgoose-1

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I think we all have our own definition on what a satisfying sail is.

About 80 % of my own sailing is in light winds. I have sailed on some bigger yachts which are great boats but personally, left me a bit undernourished due to lack of movement and feedback

No doubt you know exactly what you want but it if not fully convinced , it would be great to have a sail on a bigger boat .

.
 

RupertW

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30 footer with an 11m mast needs a 10mm halyard of 26m = £65
40 footer with a 13m mast needs a 12mm halyard of 31m = 108.50

Each has 4 halyards so £260 vs £434 and that's assuming doublebraid and ignoring the other 20 lines on board, all of which are longer and thicker on the bigger boat.

30 footer has LWL 8m x beam 3m = 24sq m antifoul = £89.95
40 footer has LWL 10m x beam 4m = 40sq m antifoul = £179.90

That's just two regular consumable items but the list goes on in a similar manner.
But thicker lines need changing less often so it even out.
 

lustyd

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Depends on the boat. My 30 footer has a 13m mast, 4m boom. Halyards and main probably same cost as a 40 footer
There are always exceptions but as a general rule it's true and your exception isn't relevant to the discussion.
But thicker lines need changing less often so it even out.
No they don't, where did you get that from? Lines degrade and we replace them because they are no longer able to take the same load. The loads are larger on bigger boats, we don't just buy thicker lines because they are more in keeping with the look of a larger deck.
 

Lightwave395

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Us pennywise owners of 30 year old 40 footers depend on the owners of 5+ year old similar size boats that need to have the latest and greatest to keep sailing, for which I thank you all...
I should I suppose change the name of my boat to the 'Queen of ebay' or 'Boat Jumble of Beaulieu' perhaps (yes, I know Beaulieu has gone).
Although prices have hardened a bit, there is almost always a good selection of boat gear of all descriptions, nearly new, lightly used, bought in error etc available at considerably less than original cost.
My Raymarine electronics are from mid 2000's and still going fine, my 48 hours on the clock 3YM30 engine was half price in 2017, standing rigging was new but running rigging, (all Dyneema) was 'rope ends' etc etc
 

Supertramp

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I'm also searching for a bigger boat, so I thought I'd cut and paste my criteria for general interest ...

Purpose …
Mediteranean live aboard / floating holiday home.
Do not sail to a fixed schedule, will always avoid bad weather where possible.
No interest in northern/southern cold weather sailing, sunshine a necessity.
Maybe do an atlantic circuit over a couple of years if I get bored of the Med.

Must haves …

12.5-13.99m LOA
11+m LWL
White fiberglass hull, not painted or wrapped.
Built in last 10 years.
Fin keel with balanced spade rudder(s).
Reasonable performance, hull speed around 8 knots.
No teak decks, no textured paint, textured gelcoat only. Teak in cockpit OK.
Clean, dry bilges, no water under the floor, no leaks into bilges.
Excellent manoeverability under power.
Engine with enough reserve power for additional high-output alternator/integrel system.
Must have at least 3 private sleeping cabins (bunks OK) - sleep at least 6 without saloon.
Master cabin with good sized double bed and panoramic views.
Clean contemporary interior - must be bright and airy with plenty of windows and light - no dark wooden cave.
L-shaped galley with workspace for 2 - Fridge must have front opening.
Freezer or space for a freezer.
Salon convertible to sea berths with lee cloths.
Chart Table/Desk - big enough for laptop/tablet.
Max 2 heads.
Seperate shower cubicle that can be closed off - no sink or toilet in shower area.
Double anchor roller, windlass with drum usable with anchor locker closed for mooring warps.
Space for upholstered sunbathing pad on foredeck while at anchor/underway.
Space for 9ft RIB on foredeck with no interference with anchor locker/sheets while underway.
Midship cleats and gates in guard rails for midships dinghy access.
Babystay fixing point on foredeck.
Roller furling main, genoa, and code zero - all furling from cockpit.
Main, genoa and code zero sheets/winches accessible from helm - preference for electric winches.
Engine control on binnacle, not floor.
Plotter/Autopilot at helm.
Big aft cockpit with easy access to the water.
Cockpit has a safe passenger area free of major sail controls, ropes, winches on coamings etc.
Winches within easy reach of helm. Cabin top for secondary controls OK.
Boom well clear of cockpit and sprayhood/bimini.
Mainsheet blocks in front of Sprayhood or on arch above sprayhood/biminini. Nowhere near cockpit occupants.
Cockpit must seat at least 8 in comfort underway and 10+ for entertaining.
Big bimini/sprayhood for fullly shaded cockpit at all times.
Big cockpit table with cool box or ability to fit one - good bracing for seats.
Twin helm with easy walkthrough into seating area, helmsman/passengers seperate areas.
Swim platform or sugar scoop stern with swim ladder and shower - platform high enough to avoid slap from waves.
Wide stern for arch with space for 800-1000W+ of solar panels, davits, & engine hoist, engine bracket for 20hp outboard.
Space for stowage of windsurfer and 2 inflated SUPs.
Space for a Watermaker.

Nice to haves …

Wind generator.
Cockpit bar/grill/sink.
Sunbathing pad in cockpit.
Sea water tap.
Fourth sleeping cabin
Folding Prop.
Water Tankage over 450l.
Fuel tank over 200l.
Electric winches.
Self tacking jib
Generator.
Washing machine.
Cockpit enclosure.
Reverse cycle heating/AC.

Not important if reflected in price ….

Condition of cooker - happy to replace
Condition of toilets - happy to replace.
Condition of sails - will be replaced.
Condition of sprayhood/bimini - canvas will be replaced.
Condition of mattresses in sleeping cabins/upholstery - will replace matresses anyway, upholstery if manky.
Condition of anchor/chain - will be replaced.
Condition of safety equipment - will all be replaced.
Condition of standing rigging - should be fine if boat relatively new, rigging inspection essential.
Condition of running rigging - will be replaced where necessary.
Antifouling condition unimportant - will be stripped back and coppercoated
Electrical equipment/instruments - must work but optical condition/age unimportant, will replace with my own system.

Deal breakers …

Loose/worn exterior teak deck/cockpit with screw fixings.
Slab reefing.
Sun damaged caulking on teak causing black stains everywhere.
DIY disasters - bizarre personal modifications.
Randomly fitted equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat.
Screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood.
Damp/Mould/Leaks or bad smells, wet bilges.
Large repairs from accident damage (Grounding/Heavy collision)
Balsa core water damage or modifications that could lead to core damage.
Keel problems (leaking or suspect keel bolts).
Blisters or damage to the hull or rudder.
Water stained interior wood or signs of water ingress.
Excellent.

You have thought about the function and details to suit you and can easily assess a potential purchase. Much more likely to make a happy purchase with this sort of checklist to evaluate with.
 

RupertW

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There are always exceptions but as a general rule it's true and your exception isn't relevant to the discussion.

No they don't, where did you get that from? Lines degrade and we replace them because they are no longer able to take the same load. The loads are larger on bigger boats, we don't just buy thicker lines because they are more in keeping with the look of a larger deck.
I get it from actual experipence. I used to need to change chafed lines on my 31 footer every 4 or 5 years. I bouught the current ones on my 42 footer in 2011 and so far more sailing each year than I used to. If deck stuff on a bigger boat isn’t lasting longer than smaller boats for you then either you are a racer and need that tiny performance gain or you have set up your running rigging wrong.
 

baart

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So in that link we have 2 bavarias and a sigma 362 (sold) roughly half the price of bavaria. So how different are they going to be in terms of handling and sea worthiness ? What would an extra 25-30k buy me with a bavaria that sigma doesn't have ? Not quite sure how to compare the two ?
 

lustyd

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Well, that's me told.
Sorry I wasn't meaning to shut you up, just highlighting that your outlier would be matched by an outlier in other sizes so doesn't change anything as far as the thread goes. Oversize rigs are available for any sized boat, but then you'd be comparing oversized rig with oversize rig, not to standard rigs. Obviously I worded it poorly so apologies.
 

RupertW

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Chafe is due to setting things up badly, not boat size. Wear and tear happens regardless, and rope degrades in UV which applies equally.
Decent rope doesn’t degrade much in UV. We leave the jib on all year in the Med and 6 months of the year now in the Caribbean and I can’t see a change in over 10 years. Why are you changing your ropes?
 

lustyd

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Why are you changing your ropes?
Not sure why you're fixating on this. Ropes, whether you like it or not, are a consumable item on a boat and need replacing periodically. That is demonstrably twice as expensive on a 40 as a 30 footer. It was just one simple example of how costs are much higher on larger boats, I could have used sails as another example but the costs are harder to find.
 

Baggywrinkle

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So in that link we have 2 bavarias and a sigma 362 (sold) roughly half the price of bavaria. So how different are they going to be in terms of handling and sea worthiness ? What would an extra 25-30k buy me with a bavaria that sigma doesn't have ? Not quite sure how to compare the two ?
The Sigma is from 1989 so every bit of mild steel and stainless steel on board has been corroding for around 35 years, the other boats for 20 ... if I remember rightly, the Sigma has mild steel reinforcements providing extra strengthening to the tabbed in plywood bulkheads, not all bolts are accessible but will almost certainly be well corroded, and the forward lower shroud SS chainplates are not accessible without removing bits of the interior, they need to be properly inspected replaced after 35 years. On the Bavs these things are all clearly visible.

I went through the same process before buying my Bav and just balked at the general condition of every 20+ year old boat I saw.

Basically, older boats tend as a general rule to be more difficult for surveyers to inspect as major components are inaccessible for inspection and replacement, add to this the length of time they have been in a harsh salt-water environment and older boats MAY be hiding serious problems. This is borne out by the plethora of YouTube channels where people buy bargain older (seaworthy) cruisers and then spend their time ripping them apart to repair them rather than sailing.

I bought a 10 year old Bav 36 - everything that was important, through-hulls, chain plates, keel bolts, etc. was accessible - almost the entire interior of the hull was accessible with the exception of the part under the water tanks, fuel tanks (where there was nothing important anyway), and heads compartment, and a mobile phone camera was able to access under the heads compartment.

That price difference can disappear pretty quickly with a bit of rot and corrosion in the wrong place.
 

Supertramp

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So in that link we have 2 bavarias and a sigma 362 (sold) roughly half the price of bavaria. So how different are they going to be in terms of handling and sea worthiness ? What would an extra 25-30k buy me with a bavaria that sigma doesn't have ? Not quite sure how to compare the two ?
Bavaria
Screenshot_20231219_125936_Google.jpg

Sigma

Screenshot_20231219_130026_Chrome.jpg

More space below, especially in the ends.

Agree with Baggywrinkle about the importance of access - don't imagine you won't need to fix or check things even at 20 years. A good quality build should last and be repairable. Embedded steel is a bit like deck cores - may be OK.

A Sigma may well have raced hard (stress). A Bavaria may have been chartered (damage).
 
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