Beginning to think we need a bigger boat

[RupertW]

Many marinas, despite charging by the metre, have a stepped charging system so each metre costs more over if the boat is over 12m and so there's a jump in cost. sails, chain and ropes are based on area rather than length and so go up exponentially with size, and similar with paint. These aren't an issue with over 40' specifically but do rise disproportionately with boat length.
But the important one is probably sails and ropes, where the power can make holding a line impossible. While this can be mitigated with tooling like winches, I certainly wouldn't want to take a headsail on a 45' boat down by myself but can easily manage on my 36'. Winch or windlass failure is manageable on a 36' too whereas on a 45' it might be a different story if not fully crewed. Obviously there's no hard cut-off, but bigger boats do come with bigger boat issues.

I sort of see that but in practice once you know you can’t handle a line without a winch the relative size doesn‘t matter and it’s never been an issue. Above about 30 feet you need to get practiced in not dinghy sailing anyway, although you can often get over it.

Taking down a headsail in a breeze is a very good example though of an easy task on a smaller boat compared to a near impossible task on a bigger one. However I’d question the necessity to ever do it - certainly I’ve never needed to in 13 years of cruising. Big tough sails well maintained shouldn’t often rip and if they did then the main problem (weight of wind) won’t be as big an issue.

Maybe I was weak enough with my 31 footer that I was already using big boat techniques so didn’t notice the jump up to 42 feet the way I noticed the huge jump up from 24 to 31?

 

[lustyd]

I sort of see that but in practice once you know you can’t handle a line without a winch

I see you've never had anything go wrong on a boat It doesn't matter if you can handle the line with a winch if the winch breaks. Nobody chooses to take a sail down in a breeze, yet I've had to do it several times when various things have broken or jammed. There isn't an alternative to getting the sail down at sea, you can't dock with it up. We did tie up in Douglas once with the top half of the spinnaker still up, but at low water in Douglas the harbour wall is high enough to stop that being a huge problem.

 

[RupertW]

Berthing costs. Replacement gear costs - at the most basic loads are bigger and need to move further so ropes are thicker and longer. Anything that wears out will be costlier to replace, decide you want a new fender, it's the bigger more expensive one and you'll need more of them, the new sail is considerably more expensive... Etc etc.

I've helmed a LOT of different boats into marina berths. From 20 something trailer sailers, through 30 footers, 35 foot cruisers, 40 foot cruiser racers, 50 foot charter tubs.... Sure some stand out, but in general the bigger you go, the more stressful it gets. Not because the boat is necessarily harder to predict, or harder to park, but because your get of of jail card gets smaller. In a 30 something foot boat, someone jumping off and pushing on the toerail is often enough to stop an "unplanned interaction with the pontoon". As the boat gets bigger and heavier that gets less possible, and also a lot less advisable. And of course the consequences of mistakes are a lot higher.... I've been around the block, I have every confidence that I can park just about anything so this aspect would not be something I would personally fret over, but I got the impression from the OP that they're a bit newer to this, so may not have had an opportunity to do much parking of larger boats.

Re the reefing, I'm not saying it's hard. But that there's more rope to pull and more load. What might be a bit of pulling and then couple of swings on a winch handle on a 30 footer can be 30s to a minute of grinding on a 40 footer.

I will stand by my statements on marinas and I find tacking no harder because the boat moves through the wind and waves with more steady momentum so plenty of time to loose and sheet in the other side single handed with little strain or effort. But I do agree on reefing, there is a lot more rope to pull and winch through. The good thing is you need to tweak a lot less often unless racing as the wind ranges for each reef are much more foregiving.

Right again about replacements being more expensive but with thicker ropes and sails they are far more rare as everything lasts so much longer - again unless racing.

 

[billskip]

Gibsea 126, not fast but built like a tank, ok will need a few bob spent but will still easily come within budget...

 

[matt1]

I made a similar transition to the OP’s suggestion, specifically from a Hunter Channel 31 to a 40’ Hanse. For reference I’ve been sailing all my life, crossed the Atlantic etc and considered myself pretty adept at boat handling.

As with anything in life there are +\- and Flaming seems to have covered it well so I’ll try not to repeat, but for me, the push button autopilot combined with modern electronics and electric winches translates to the 40’ being a lot easier to sail offshore and nowhere near as physical as the 31 was. TBF the 31’ was pretty sporty and fast. Interestingly though my partner is less confident on the 40’ because it heels more and is demonstrably a much more powerful boat. She also feels no less seasick despite the boats increase in size and displacement. On the other hand close quarters manoeuvring took a while to master due to the high topsides - I have to use far more speed than I would like. Pre purchase I convinced myself the costs wouldn’t be that much greater but in reality everything is more expensive and I definitely notice it. The biggest issue has been the decrease in available visitor berths with the bigger boat and 2.1’ draft. Compounded by the last boat being twin keel so I could dry out if nowhere else had room! As a result (& partly the explosion in pandemic boating) I tend to avoid me up visiting fewer local harbours (ones I can be more confident will have availability, or I book ahead)

All of which has meant that when I’m older and decrepit I can see myself downsizing and being very happy with the new found freedom and light loads, easy mooring etc

That’s not to say I regret going bigger, just that it comes with different challenges. Ultimately smiles per mile were a lot better value with my two previous (smaller) boats.

 

[doug748]

Bona Fide

The fin is a lot longer than it looks in that photo ... BONA FIDE 1890 .... and it also has a relatively wide transom .... imagine if Sibbick had had access to carbon fiber

..... but she was indeed ahead of her time, hence the resistance and prejudice? The idea was right, and she was fast, but there wasn't much in the way of accomodation by modern standards - not your average AWB by a long shot, but Sibbick was right to get the weight down low - but even today there is resistance, over a century later. Just proves how set in their ways the sailing community is.

Deep draught and bulbed keels are indeed making a comeback in med type cruising boats, without them a lot of very high sided and heavy hulled boats would fail to get into Cat A. So the other way of looking at it is more in terms of a marketing wheeze.

.

 

[baart]

Thinking about the boat size it is also important my wife can handle the winches and sails on her own without having to rely on electric. I am a strong beliver in keeping it simple and reducing unnecessary systems. If it is not there it cannot break. I guess I would rather compromise on size if it means avoiding electric winches. And I can see that finding space in a marina for a bigger boat can be a struggle.

 

[johnalison]

There is no doubt that a bigger boat will have ‘longer legs’ and generally have an easier motion. Many larger boats will require someone to go on deck to raise the mainsail or reef, and that is something that I’m glad I no longer have to do. Although the loads on the sheets can be massively higher, proper winches and equipment should overcome this, but it can be hard to avoid more physical effort for certain jobs, such as boat care when fitting out and manhandling. It is dead easy to move a 28’ boat around a pontoon but this may be impossible for anyone but a strongman with a forty-footer. Much depends on the sort of sailing you intend to do.

 

[Concerto]

Berthing costs. Replacement gear costs - at the most basic loads are bigger and need to move further so ropes are thicker and longer. Anything that wears out will be costlier to replace, decide you want a new fender, it's the bigger more expensive one and you'll need more of them, the new sail is considerably more expensive... Etc etc.

I've helmed a LOT of different boats into marina berths. From 20 something trailer sailers, through 30 footers, 35 foot cruisers, 40 foot cruiser racers, 50 foot charter tubs.... Sure some stand out, but in general the bigger you go, the more stressful it gets. Not because the boat is necessarily harder to predict, or harder to park, but because your get of of jail card gets smaller. In a 30 something foot boat, someone jumping off and pushing on the toerail is often enough to stop an "unplanned interaction with the pontoon". As the boat gets bigger and heavier that gets less possible, and also a lot less advisable. And of course the consequences of mistakes are a lot higher.... I've been around the block, I have every confidence that I can park just about anything so this aspect would not be something I would personally fret over, but I got the impression from the OP that they're a bit newer to this, so may not have had an opportunity to do much parking of larger boats.

Re the reefing, I'm not saying it's hard. But that there's more rope to pull and more load. What might be a bit of pulling and then couple of swings on a winch handle on a 30 footer can be 30s to a minute of grinding on a 40 footer.

Well said. My brother went from a 31ft to 35ft to 42ft. As he went up in size he travelled further with the larger boats but he found he used the largest boat the least as it was so much harder to berth so never went out for a day sail. He then changed to a displacement motor boat and now has a 27ft yacht. One of the problem with the biggest boat was the weight of all the equipment on board like spinnaker pole, most sails were a 2 man lift, and the winches he had to upgrade to electric. Berthing was a lot more difficult and required precise positioning and the bow thruster was necessary. Going larger can be great to live aboard but does have new problems.

 

[RupertW]

I see you've never had anything go wrong on a boat It doesn't matter if you can handle the line with a winch if the winch breaks. Nobody chooses to take a sail down in a breeze, yet I've had to do it several times when various things have broken or jammed. There isn't an alternative to getting the sail down at sea, you can't dock with it up. We did tie up in Douglas once with the top half of the spinnaker still up, but at low water in Douglas the harbour wall is high enough to stop that being a huge problem.

Plenty of things have gone wrong of course, but not ever having to get a roller jib down in rough weather at sea. It’s seems unlikely to the point of carelessness for it to be fully rolled out (or you wouldnt be able to get it down) in rough weather and impossible to roll or wrap (which I have had to do.

 

[Tranona]

Thinking about the boat size it is also important my wife can handle the winches and sails on her own without having to rely on electric. I am a strong beliver in keeping it simple and reducing unnecessary systems. If it is not there it cannot break. I guess I would rather compromise on size if it means avoiding electric winches. And I can see that finding space in a marina for a bigger boat can be a struggle.

The size range you are looking at is the sweet spot for a couple with occasional guests or a small family. While many here will say that the older style boats with higher ballast ratios, deeper hulls long fin and skeg etc are superior to more modern boats one has to question why such things have not been built in production volumes for getting on for 30 years. So thousands of people seem to manage cruising of the type you envisage quite happily with less displacement, lower ballast large open cockpits, fractional rigs (often in mast furling). The supporters of older boats often have no experience of owning a modern boat and maybe don't value some of the other properties they have like superior system, fridges large water and fuel tanks, showers, separate sleeping cabins and a host of other things that make cruising life more comfortable.

Keep an open mind and have a look at a lot of boats. Your £60k will get you a early to mid 2000s 36' 2 cabin boat with all mod cons usually with plenty of life left in it. Ignore those who say they are lightly built and fall apart - it is simply not true. I noticed my old Bavaria 37 has just been sold in Spain yachtworld.com/yacht/2001-bavaria-37-9019893/ I bought it new in 2001 and chartered it out in Greece for 7 years, then kept it in Corfu for 2 further years before bringing it back to the UK in 2010. In 2015 I part exchanged it for a new 33 and it was sold to a family in Southampton who spent about £10k on refurbishing it including new sails and sailed it back to the Med. It is still largely original including the engine (which has actually done around 3000 hours more than is on the clock now. During my ownership nothing much went wrong except the saildrive failed at about 3500 hours and I fitted a new later type. The windlass was replaced at around the same time, the gas system overhauled with a new cooker and a new forward water tank fitted. When I look at the photos it is almost exactly as I left it apart from the TV!. Not surprised it sold quickly for more than the current owner paid for it in 2015.

I have seen a lot of boats from this period over the years, not just Bavarias and my experience is not unusual. Of course over 20 years much depends on how they are used and maintained, but the underlying structures are sound, the equipment and systems are from well known suppliers who are still in business so parts if needed are easy to get. Of course they are not perfect but a lot of thought has gone into making them easy to live with, in part reflecting the demands of charter operators who are a big buyers.

I think the challenge you will have now is actually finding boats in this size and price range of all types. There is a real shortage of good boats and prices have risen in the last year or so. However I found these 2 which might give you an idea of what you can get for your money
networkyachtbrokers.com/results/?mmk=&type=sail&new_used=0&lbound_price=0&ubound_price=65000&lbound_length=35&ubound_length=40&lbound_year=1985&ubound_year=2010&country=GB&office=-1

 

[Zing]

I think that cube would be closer, given that that is the difference in volume and displacement.

Yes it's cube for those dimensions, but not as regards cost. They don't go up with displacement, but something a little less, like the square.

 

[dgadee]

There’s only two reasons to sell a boat...you are giving up...or you want something bigger....why do think I do the lottery...it’s not to fund world peace. I can’t recommend a boat...but my advice is to get the biggest boat you can afford because you will always grow into it

Nah. Get two boats instead.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Deep draught and bulbed keels are indeed making a comeback in med type cruising boats, without them a lot of very high sided and heavy hulled boats would fail to get into Cat A. So the other way of looking at it is more in terms of a marketing wheeze.

.

Are you sure it's a marketing wheeze? It might be a cost cutting exercise, or an unnecessary complication? ... I'm sure it's not a more efficient design made possible by detailed computer modelling combined with modern materials and construction techniques - providing todays cruisers and charter customers with products they want at prices they can afford .... can't possibly be that.

 

[DJE]

- Sigma 362 ( 38 seems too powerful for 2 people and 41 too big I think)
- Countess 37 ( seems to tick a lot of boxes )
- Moody 36 (as above)
- Malo 38 ( apart from the teak deck)

I wouldn't rule out the Sigma 38. We sail something similar ( Scanyacht 391 - rating very similar to Sigma 38) as a couple in our mid sixties. Reef early to keep things comfortable and enjoy the speed.

 

[michael_w]

Most Sigma 38s have been school boats as they can pack a lot of people. As a result, they might be rather tired. The boat not the people!

I looked at a 362, but fractionally rigged ones are rather rare and the basin in the fo'c'sle is a complete waste of space. Ended up with a Dehler 35 CWS. Though an anticipated windfall means a boat change is on the horizon.

 

[prestomg27]

Some very valuable comments, thank you all. I am worried about the growing costs once above 40ft. It feels 36-38ft is a sweet spot for a couple.

To each their own but i've always thought 32-34 the seetspot for a couple. I know the trend is for bigger and bigher but...

Not least because i have lost count of the times that I have radioed a marina asking for a berth to be first told they are full then asked for length and when told only 8 ish then told they will fit me in somehow.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I'm also searching for a bigger boat, so I thought I'd cut and paste my criteria for general interest ...

Purpose …
Mediteranean live aboard / floating holiday home.
Do not sail to a fixed schedule, will always avoid bad weather where possible.
No interest in northern/southern cold weather sailing, sunshine a necessity.
Maybe do an atlantic circuit over a couple of years if I get bored of the Med.

Must haves …

12.5-13.99m LOA
11+m LWL
White fiberglass hull, not painted or wrapped.
Built in last 10 years.
Fin keel with balanced spade rudder(s).
Reasonable performance, hull speed around 8 knots.
No teak decks, no textured paint, textured gelcoat only. Teak in cockpit OK.
Clean, dry bilges, no water under the floor, no leaks into bilges.
Excellent manoeverability under power.
Engine with enough reserve power for additional high-output alternator/integrel system.
Must have at least 3 private sleeping cabins (bunks OK) - sleep at least 6 without saloon.
Master cabin with good sized double bed and panoramic views.
Clean contemporary interior - must be bright and airy with plenty of windows and light - no dark wooden cave.
L-shaped galley with workspace for 2 - Fridge must have front opening.
Freezer or space for a freezer.
Salon convertible to sea berths with lee cloths.
Chart Table/Desk - big enough for laptop/tablet.
Max 2 heads.
Seperate shower cubicle that can be closed off - no sink or toilet in shower area.
Double anchor roller, windlass with drum usable with anchor locker closed for mooring warps.
Space for upholstered sunbathing pad on foredeck while at anchor/underway.
Space for 9ft RIB on foredeck with no interference with anchor locker/sheets while underway.
Midship cleats and gates in guard rails for midships dinghy access.
Babystay fixing point on foredeck.
Roller furling main, genoa, and code zero - all furling from cockpit.
Main, genoa and code zero sheets/winches accessible from helm - preference for electric winches.
Engine control on binnacle, not floor.
Plotter/Autopilot at helm.
Big aft cockpit with easy access to the water.
Cockpit has a safe passenger area free of major sail controls, ropes, winches on coamings etc.
Winches within easy reach of helm. Cabin top for secondary controls OK.
Boom well clear of cockpit and sprayhood/bimini.
Mainsheet blocks in front of Sprayhood or on arch above sprayhood/biminini. Nowhere near cockpit occupants.
Cockpit must seat at least 8 in comfort underway and 10+ for entertaining.
Big bimini/sprayhood for fullly shaded cockpit at all times.
Big cockpit table with cool box or ability to fit one - good bracing for seats.
Twin helm with easy walkthrough into seating area, helmsman/passengers seperate areas.
Swim platform or sugar scoop stern with swim ladder and shower - platform high enough to avoid slap from waves.
Wide stern for arch with space for 800-1000W+ of solar panels, davits, & engine hoist, engine bracket for 20hp outboard.
Space for stowage of windsurfer and 2 inflated SUPs.
Space for a Watermaker.

Nice to haves …

Wind generator.
Cockpit bar/grill/sink.
Sunbathing pad in cockpit.
Sea water tap.
Fourth sleeping cabin
Folding Prop.
Water Tankage over 450l.
Fuel tank over 200l.
Electric winches.
Self tacking jib
Generator.
Washing machine.
Cockpit enclosure.
Reverse cycle heating/AC.

Not important if reflected in price ….

Condition of cooker - happy to replace
Condition of toilets - happy to replace.
Condition of sails - will be replaced.
Condition of sprayhood/bimini - canvas will be replaced.
Condition of mattresses in sleeping cabins/upholstery - will replace matresses anyway, upholstery if manky.
Condition of anchor/chain - will be replaced.
Condition of safety equipment - will all be replaced.
Condition of standing rigging - should be fine if boat relatively new, rigging inspection essential.
Condition of running rigging - will be replaced where necessary.
Antifouling condition unimportant - will be stripped back and coppercoated
Electrical equipment/instruments - must work but optical condition/age unimportant, will replace with my own system.

Deal breakers …

Loose/worn exterior teak deck/cockpit with screw fixings.
Slab reefing.
Sun damaged caulking on teak causing black stains everywhere.
DIY disasters - bizarre personal modifications.
Randomly fitted equipment/decorations fixed all over the inside of the boat.
Screw holes, discoloured veneer, damaged interior wood.
Damp/Mould/Leaks or bad smells, wet bilges.
Large repairs from accident damage (Grounding/Heavy collision)
Balsa core water damage or modifications that could lead to core damage.
Keel problems (leaking or suspect keel bolts).
Blisters or damage to the hull or rudder.
Water stained interior wood or signs of water ingress.

 

[baart]

then told they will fit me in somehow.

My experience as well. with 30ft finding marina berth is easy. 36-38 there seems to be less compromise with space while still small enough to manage easily between 2 people.

 

[lustyd]

We've never had an issue finding a berth in our 36' and realistically because boats around this size are the most common it means rafting is easy. My old 20' Vivacity was small but was a real pain to raft because it was so much lower than other boats, and it necessarily meant nobody else could raft on the outside of me. I never failed to get a berth in that either though!