Before I have another go at the Belgains - what colour is Irish diesel?

[samwise]

The Dutch embassy response posted by Stork is really a statement of the status quo as we understand it and as we have been informed by the RYA and others. The key phrase in the response is "at the moment." I read that to mean that the EU has not given up on its insistence that the UK should (eventually) fall into line on fuel tax harmonisation.

The Dutch response is a welcome recognition that UK boaters really have no option but to full with red because the marinas have generally made little or no effort to revise their fuel storage and delivery arrangements to handle white diesel.

We are already more than three years beyond the date when the derogation negotiated by the UK for a "stay of execution" on conforming ran out, so - apart from a few isolated"difficulties" with foreigbn authority, we have had a good run.
However, we cannot expect the situation to continue and because there is still confusion about what is and what isn't legal, plus the opportunity for officials abroad to take "local action" we should be prepared for boaters to remain at risk of being inspected and possibly fined, which is not a happy situation.

The Tory led government is clearly no lover of the EU and is unlikely to move faster to conformity ( cheers from the right!) and apply pressure to those supplying boaters with fuel to ensure delivery of " legal" diesel, . Sadly, as we are clearly a very minority issue and there are no easy votes to be gained from sorting it out we are consigned to the current limbo for a while at least.

 

[maby]

...

The Tory led government is clearly no lover of the EU and is unlikely to move faster to conformity ( cheers from the right!) and apply pressure to those supplying boaters with fuel to ensure delivery of " legal" diesel, . Sadly, as we are clearly a very minority issue and there are no easy votes to be gained from sorting it out we are consigned to the current limbo for a while at least.

It really isn't anything to do with the government - marinas could switch tomorrow if they wanted to and I can't imagine port fueling stations ever switching since the proportion of their sales that go to leisure boats is so small. The government has no power to pressure private companies such as marinas and ports into doing anything.

In practice, I suspect that most marinas will begin to switch to white diesel since the bulk of their sales are to leisure craft and those of us that don't live in marina berths will just have to start going to their nearest marina to fill up.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

The government has no power to pressure private companies such as marinas and ports into doing anything.

Of course it does. HMRC could issue a dictat that any diesel, red or white, must be sold at full duty and the retailers would have to comly

In practice, I suspect that most marinas will begin to switch to white diesel since the bulk of their sales are to leisure craft and those of us that don't live in marina berths will just have to start going to their nearest marina to fill up.

Most marinas will sell the cheapest fuel allowable to keep prices down for its customers, and protect revenue and margin.

 

[maby]

Of course it does. HMRC could issue a dictat that any diesel, red or white, must be sold at full duty and the retailers would have to comly

....

But, as has been emphasised many times, the Belgians are not interested in the tax paid status of the fuel, just the colour. Insisting that we pay full duty on red diesel will not satisfy them - only making it white. The government cannot insist that a private company ceases to stock something that is legal. OK - if the 60/40 tax break was removed, the marina residents might put more pressure on marinas to switch to white diesel and, since most marinas do not supply so many commercial vessels, they would probably comply and sell us white diesel.

But as has been pointed out several times before, a lot of leisure sailors are not marina residents (and tend to look down on us that are as "not proper sailors"). They get their fuel from port fueling stations which exist primarily to serve commercial ships which will continue to be allowed to use red diesel and will not be prepared to install extra pumps and tanks to serve the few hundred gallons of white per year that they might expect to sell - hence no solution for sailing to Belgium.

 

[ditchcrawler]

This is going to run and run.When the letter from the Dutch Embassy was posted I was feeling better.One of our members at Woodbridge Cruising Club who is planning a trip to Holland has a Dutch friend and he contacted the Dutch Customs Authorities to find out their opinion.The customs guy looked it up in their documentation and quoted from their internal instruction to operational custom officers and this is their position.

Holland does not accept the 60/40 split in duty paid/not paid as is accepted in the UK
Holland insists on 100% duty paid for pleasure craft fuel.

The way not to get a fine is to have a receipt less than one year old which shows that you have paid the full 100% rate.Without this proof a fine will be issued.
If the receipt proving 100% duty paid is over 1 year old and red colouring is found it is up to the owner of the vessel to prove that the fuel related to the receipt is still the original supply(so e.g. if the boat can be proved to have been laid up for a long time )(A
big problem me thinks and open to interpretation)

This is not what has been stated by the Dutch Embassy in the earlier letter.Perhaps Stork can E mail the man at the Embassy to find out which is correct.
Our trip to Holland is looking less likely every day.We have already given up on Belgium.

 

[Erik C]

Dutch customs will accept a full tax receipt of less then a year old so what is the problem? Fill up before you go at a 100% tax rate and you will be fine.

 

[Lucky Duck]

One of our members at Woodbridge Cruising Club who is planning a trip to Holland has a Dutch friend and he contacted the Dutch Customs Authorities to find out their opinion.The customs guy looked it up in their documentation and quoted from their internal instruction to operational custom officers and this is their position.

Holland does not accept the 60/40 split in duty paid/not paid as is accepted in the UK
Holland insists on 100% duty paid for pleasure craft fuel.

The way not to get a fine is to have a receipt less than one year old which shows that you have paid the full 100% rate.Without this proof a fine will be issued.

This might explain the rather odd wording in letter (extract below) about the fuel receipt stating that the UK government would pay the difference in the tax as my last receipt (issued by MDL about a week ago) just said that I declared xx percentage as being used for propulsion

On the receipt should be written that “the difference in tax between white and red diesel is paid by the UK Government (the 60/40 notice)"

 

[Koeketiene]

Dutch customs will accept a full tax receipt of less then a year old so what is the problem? Fill up before you go at a 100% tax rate and you will be fine.

Why would you fill up with fully taxed red in Britain, when it's cheaper and causes less agro to fill up with fully taxed white on the continent

 

[Stork_III]

This is going to run and run.When the letter from the Dutch Embassy was posted I was feeling better.One of our members at Woodbridge Cruising Club who is planning a trip to Holland has a Dutch friend and he contacted the Dutch Customs Authorities to find out their opinion.The customs guy looked it up in their documentation and quoted from their internal instruction to operational custom officers and this is their position.

Holland does not accept the 60/40 split in duty paid/not paid as is accepted in the UK
Holland insists on 100% duty paid for pleasure craft fuel.

The way not to get a fine is to have a receipt less than one year old which shows that you have paid the full 100% rate.Without this proof a fine will be issued.
If the receipt proving 100% duty paid is over 1 year old and red colouring is found it is up to the owner of the vessel to prove that the fuel related to the receipt is still the original supply(so e.g. if the boat can be proved to have been laid up for a long time )(A
big problem me thinks and open to interpretation)

This is not what has been stated by the Dutch Embassy in the earlier letter.Perhaps Stork can E mail the man at the Embassy to find out which is correct.
Our trip to Holland is looking less likely every day.We have already given up on Belgium.

I have emailed Leike Conijn at the Embassy for further clarification,will report when/if a reply comes.

 

[samwise]

This is going to run and run..

And the uncertainty will get worse. At least one poster in this thread has mentioned folk who are seriously re-examining their foreign going trips this coming season.

This has been dragging ( or rather limping) along for far too long and it is about time it was resolved. All that rubbish about fitting secret tanks etc is no answer.

The bottom line is that the UK is out of step and the sooner we accept that the better. Boaters depending on marina supplied fuel are screwed because they are content to ignore the problem as long as they can maintain the profit margins enjoyed by red diesel supply. The only other option for meeting the regulation is to can road diesel it from the nearest vehicle filling station - which is certainly not an option for a Mobo.

As I have said elsewhere, the current government's clear anti-EU stance makes it unlikely that they will decide to slip into line and conform some time soon -- in fact more boaters being stopped and fined by Johnny Foreigner will provide welcome ammunition for the anti lobby

 

[ukmctc]

More ballox, what is it that makes this forum such a mine of misinformation. I can show you my tax disc if you like, or you could enquire how GB is full of oil delivery lorries registered OIL****?

I wish it were ballox, but its true, I'm here now with these problems. I work here and bought a car, registering it with DVLA (NI), can't do that as the home address is UK Mainland, can't tax it here either unless I register it here Or I have the reg doc and renewal letter, which is at the local DVLA office in Highlands Inverness. The post office in NI doesn't have the standard form for tax and reg as on mainland, it has a special one for NI only not used in Mainland.
DVLA Swansea and local mainland DVLA offices DO NOT WORK with NI and visaversa.
This is NOT MISINFORMATION its FACT.

Now oil delivery lorries can travel freely over to mainland and back, but if registered in NI must use NI reminder to get road fund, or if in possesion of reg doc and renew online if reg in NI, BUT if vehicle is tobe reg in mainland you would be unable to use NI forms or online until address reg is changed to mainland.

Now I hope that satisfies the barrackroom layers in here.....

 

[Quandary]

I
DVLA Swansea and local mainland DVLA offices DO NOT WORK with NI and visaversa.
This is NOT MISINFORMATION its FACT.
Now I hope that satisfies the barrackroom layers in here.....

Both my wife and I go over to N.I. to buy our cars but tax them at Swansea, (deals on low mileage demos were better there than in Scotland) we continue to drive them on the N.I. plates, it is not a problem. I accept that if your address is in N.I. you need to deal with Coleraine whereas in G.B. you go to Swansea, what is odd about that?
If you try driving fast past some G.B. speed cameras in your N.I. registered car you will discover that Swansea and Coleraine do co-operate, that is why there is usually a speed trap at Cairnryan, it is a big money spinner for Dumfries and Galloway. I accept that you will have to send the money over to Dumfries but the points will still go on your license. Lots of Scots like to use N.I. plates because the car age is a lot less obvious to people over here and G.B. oil distributors registered new lorries in Fermanagh because they like the 'OIL' letters on the plates, the registrations are recycled as the trucks are replaced. The trucks have never been on the ferry.
When N.I. motor tax office auctions its 'low number' plates anyone can bid for them and fit them.

 

[Quandary]

UKMTC
Just go back to the dealer that sold you the car and get him to register and tax it, every garage does it.

 

[jordanbasset]

The issue is that the U.K. Government believe the changes they have made with -
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...nt&id=HMCE_PROD1_029598&propertyType=document
means that we now comply with E.U. legislation. Belgium and the E.U. disagree and the British Government is still appealing to the E.U.
The relevant part of the above link is

'1.2 Why are the changes taking place?
The UK held derogations from the Energy Products Directive (EPD) (2003/96) which permitted the use of reduced and exempt rates of duty for fuel used in private pleasure-craft and for fuel used in private pleasure-flying. These derogations expired on 31 December 2006. These changes are required in order to comply with European legislation.'

The RYA response to this is here
http://www.hollowshorecc.co.uk/pdf/red_diesel.pdf
Relevant part is

'The RYA, together with the BMF [British Marine Federation], has written to key
treasury ministers and has met with HMRC [Her Majesty's Revenue and
Customs] in order to encourage Government to vigorously defend the UK's
position on the use of red diesel. This follows the EU's announcement in July
2011 that it intends to open infringement proceedings against the UKover its
continued use of red diesel for recreational craft.
The EU believes that the UK’s continued use of marked “red” fuel for
propulsion undermines the common system of fiscal marking, despite the fact
that the full rate of duty has been paid on that fuel. However, specialist advice
obtained by the RYA indicates that the UK's system does not contravene the
EU marking directive, and we understand that the HMRC has been similarly
advised. Diesel for use in recreational craft is also marked red in many other
countries outside the EU including the USA and Norway. So any boat visiting
the EU having take on fuel in any of these countries would also lawfully have
red diesel in their fuel tanks. A number of UK boats and non-EU boats have
been fined by during 2011 by customs officials in different European countries
for having red diesel in their tanks, despite providing proof of purchase and
duty paid.'

For me until this is resolved at Government level private boaters should not be harrassed in this way.
'

 

[rob2]

The quicker Cameron gives us our vote, which he promised pre-election, the quicker we may solve our own problems.

For any that care to remember we were promised a vote before but the question was NOT yes or no, but do we join now or later? A lose/lose situation!

Rob.

 

[Stork_III]

I have emailed Leike Conijn at the Embassy for further clarification,will report when/if a reply comes.

Interim replyfrom the Dutch Embassy in London.

I have received your email from the 6th of January. To be really sure that I can give the right information I have contacted the Customs Authorities again. Apparently there is some confusion within the Customs Authorities about this matter. Therefore they have sent the question now directly to the responsible Department.

As soon as I get an answer back from the Department I will inform you.

With kind regards,

Lieke Conijn

Office Manager
........................................................................
Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
Economic Section
38 Hyde Park Gate | SW7 5DP | London
........................................................................
T +44 20 7590 3259
F +44 20 7581 3450
E lon-ea@minbuza.nl

W www.hollanduktrade.nl



Awaiting the definitive reply.

 

[Burnham Bob]

Just to update things, I wrote to my Euro MP after he said the Belgians were right, forwarding the RYA's letter from Gus Lewis saying red diesel would be okay under the EU rules. He replied as follows......


Thank you for sending me this message from the RYA. Their legal advice is one thing, but the matter can only be resolved by a judgment of the European Court in the action brought by the European Commission against the UK government - which, as we know, is pending.

You asked me for my professional advice, and you have it, which is that the Commission is more likely to be 'right' in this matter than HMRC. With respect, it is not a matter of taking political sides but of seeking to clarify the legal situation without which clarification the position of yachtsmen such as yourself will continue to be highly unsatisfactory.
My best wishes for the New Year,
Andrew Duff

He sounded a bit miffed that the RYA and HMRC doubted his word.

 

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks for your efforts Stork.I have sent you a PM.Hope you got it.Also keep up the good work Burnham B.

 

[Stork_III]

Thanks for your efforts Stork.I have sent you a PM.Hope you got it.Also keep up the good work Burnham B.

Yes got that thanks, doing it out of self interest really.

 

[charles_reed]

please do not dye diesel green.... Green is aviation fuel Avgas 100's color...
Avgas 100LL's color (low lead) is Blue. Jet A1 is red... you are asking for trouble.... why not a rainbow colored fuel? cheers. Al

Rather, the Irish are asking for trouble!