Are brand new boats a vanity??

[roblpm]

I disagree that because a design is newer it is safer and all round better sailing ability. Many modern lighter weight boats with high aspect deep keels wouldn't survive hitting big rocks at speed whereas a much older "lower tech build em thick" design may well do. Problem I see with the vast majority of new popular boats is that they're built to pack as many people in as possible, dictated by the charter market.

I was talking about a new RM1070. Not a pack em in boat for the charter market. There seem to be just a few builders still building quality sailing boats for owners??!!

 

[Resolution]

I disagree that because a design is newer it is safer and all round better sailing ability. Many modern lighter weight boats with high aspect deep keels wouldn't survive hitting big rocks at speed whereas a much older "lower tech build em thick" design may well do. Problem I see with the vast majority of new popular boats is that they're built to pack as many people in as possible, dictated by the charter market.

You might be surprised at the strength possible in a modern fin keel design. Not too many years ago I watched as a brand new 43 footer was rushing back to Hythe Marina on a falling tide. Unfortunately they has misjudged things and at some 6 knots they hit the cill and smashed to a stop. When we lifted the boat the bottom few inches of the front of the cast iron keel had obviously had a terrific blow. Inside the boat, some of the wood furniture had been dislodged, and one of the stringers ( ribs) had parted company with the hull. But no keel bolts had been bent or fractured, and the hull had suffered no measurable damage. All confirmed by the surveyor for the insurance company.
But you are right about the design being aimed at fitting more people on board, that 43 footer had berths for 11 people!

 

[Tranona]

Boat building advances the same as all other things, so the newer the boat the newer the design, safety, sailing ability.
With a new boat you also know everything it has done, two boats in our marina have grounded at speed (hit big rocks) - would this be something that would be offered up to a prospective buyer, or does a buyer have to be totally reliant on the surveyor? What about all the things that have been 'fiddled' with?
If you can, go new.

You have touched a raw nerve here. There are people around still that think nothing much has been any good since the 1970's and that the ability to crash into rocks and survive is a sign of a good boat (ignoring of course the many boats built since then that have done just that).

Good thing there is a plentiful supply of such boats at rock bottom prices to keep that market happy.

 

[Seven Spades]

Eight years ago I bought an eleven year old boat, since then I have replaced everything from taps, door locks curtains, navigation equipment, rod ends, seacocks Webasto, pressure valve, heads, rigging , anchor and the list goes on and on. The boat is Bionic it is constantly being re-built. As it happens I think the boat is in better condition now than when I bought it but it is now 19 years old and the money I have spent will not be reflected in the sale price. In three years time the tax free lump sum on my pension will allow me to buy a new boat, where I will escape just about all of this except anti-fouling and anodes for quite a number pf years. In addition it will have al new navigation equipment of the same generation so everything will talk to everything else. Modern wiring in boats is so much better than boat that are only 12 years old.

I like the idea of not having to worry about which bit of the boat is going to need replacement next and just going sailing with a new boat where everything works. No vanity does not come into it and yes I will lose some capital but there will be plenty left over for my kids when I go and they will by then be old enough to be sensible with it.

 

[Jamesuk]

Buying a new boat is a bit 'show off' and you will show your true colours when the warranty problems come through.

I reckon: if you can spend at least 12 weeks of the year sailing then owning a boat is good value over charter

Charter gives you more experience in more destinations and various size boats.

 

[Momac]

Someone has to buy new boats.
I don't see any harm in it as it provides me with a supply of second hand boats for the future.
Most people will not know a nearly new boat from a 10 year old boat .

 

[doug748]

Someone has to buy new boats.
I don't see any harm in it as it provides me with a supply of second hand boats for the future.
Most people will not know a nearly new boat from a 10 year old boat .

A very fair and balanced post, are you sure you are on the right forum? ; )

To address the original question, I suspect that a brand new boat is a bit a vanity purchase but why not, most of us do not have the option.

I think it is a very sound idea to look at your requirements 10 years ahead of retirement. I don't think it is the best plan to down tools, buy a new/used boat, and sail off in it.

 

[Sailfree]

You might be surprised at the strength possible in a modern fin keel design. Not too many years ago I watched as a brand new 43 footer was rushing back to Hythe Marina on a falling tide. Unfortunately they has misjudged things and at some 6 knots they hit the cill and smashed to a stop. When we lifted the boat the bottom few inches of the front of the cast iron keel had obviously had a terrific blow. Inside the boat, some of the wood furniture had been dislodged, and one of the stringers ( ribs) had parted company with the hull. But no keel bolts had been bent or fractured, and the hull had suffered no measurable damage. All confirmed by the surveyor for the insurance company.
But you are right about the design being aimed at fitting more people on board, that 43 footer had berths for 11 people!

That was the Jeanneau 43 DS that was commissioned just before mine. You don't mention the broken ribs Seaventures commissioning manager suffered just coming to a sudden stop and slid while seated into a winch. It was a very hard impact at a low spring tide. Fortunately the new owner was at the helm and only knew full ahead or full astern and hence SeaVentures were not responsible and still pleasantly surprised that there were so little damage.

I liked the layout of the 43DS and ordered one when I heard they were stopping making them BUT you can't compare them with modern production boats.

To lower production costs nearly all current production boats are now built with an inner egg crate hull stuck to an outer hull so forming ribs and stringers for strength. I doubt that one of these type of builds would survive such an impact without serious de bonding and damage. Problem is that the de bonding is not visible and inaccessible without cutting into the inner hill. Benneteau developed this system and to be cost competitive all other production boats have had to follow.

On the older type production boats the ribs and stringers are visible and bonded to the thicker outer hull and any impact damage can be visually inspected and repaired.

This is a major reason why I am renovating my now 10yr old Jeanneau and keeping it instead of replacing it.

This type of construction is now used by Hanse , Benneteau, Jeanneau, bavaria, élan Dufour and many others. There are of course better quality boats like Arcona and X boats that use an internal steel frame to take the stresses and others that are still constructed in a conventional way like HR etc but you pay for the extra construction costs.

It's not just an easy choice as there are major differences in construction methods. I am sure all are fit for purpose but I do believe the more modern the boat the least rigid they are. Many called the benneateaus " bendy toys"! I do not have personal experience of these bendy boats so their reputation may be ill deserved. However I am aware that these boats can no longer be displayed at boat shows on a cradle as the doors stick instead they are displayed by being supported on formers that exactly fit the hull shape!

Without doubt the actual strength of the materials used are now more consistent and better understood and hence for any size of modern boat they are now lighter and materials cost money. I think all purchasers should have a reality check though as modern boats are designed for modern use eg cruising with good weather forecasts. If you are likely to sail in a F9 then think again about sailing characteristics and an older boat that is likely to have a dark interior , narrow beam and less spacious, heavier, longer keel, and slower both sailing and motoring (older boats tend to have lower powered engines) may be a better choice of compromises.

At the time of buying our first 36' AWB a friend bought a rustler 36. Could not be different boats. Ours could take 6 ( 8 with saloon) Rustler was narrow and took 2 (4 with saloon). Our AWB was chartered with a sailing school and regularly went out in F8 to complete courses booked but I know what boat I would have chosen if we were going to regularly sail in a F8. However the AWB ( a Dufour) coped OK and was the right choice for us.

It's never a clear cut choice for most people, no right boat as they are all a compromise.

For me and 1st officer the ability to do up to 10 kts with 75HP engine for our limited time when sailing to a timetable dictated by work was important plus the very light interior that white leather upholstery and deck saloon windows gives and a good shower compartment were important and keeps the wife willing to now contemplate going off for a few months but many will correctly state that these features have nothing to do with sailing! But for us it is the difference between now sailing or 1st officer no longer small boat sailing and then insisting on Cunnard Cruises!

 

[GrahamM376]

You have touched a raw nerve here. There are people around still that think nothing much has been any good since the 1970's and that the ability to crash into rocks and survive is a sign of a good boat (ignoring of course the many boats built since then that have done just that).

Good thing there is a plentiful supply of such boats at rock bottom prices to keep that market happy.

That's not the case. It's about leverage at the top of the keel. In an impact, a 6-8 ft long shallower keel on typically older lower performance designs, spread any loads over a greater area of the hull than a short but deep high aspect keel which is mounted over a much smaller area, as it the case with more modern higher performance models.

Getting back to the vanity question, I find it a bit odd to suggest that buying a new boat is vain, any more than buying a new car. If you have the dosh, like something, then buy it. As MartynG says, someone has to fuel the second hand market a few years down the line and it keeps people in employment.

 

[Skylark]

Buying a new boat is a bit 'show off' and you will show your true colours when the warranty problems come through.

I bought a new boat. Please explain further why you think I need to "show off". Further, please explain what "show your true colours" means? I have had quite a few warranty problems so I can wait to see if I fit your jaundiced stereotype.

 

[Tranona]

That's not the case. It's about leverage at the top of the keel. In an impact, a 6-8 ft long shallower keel on typically older lower performance designs, spread any loads over a greater area of the hull than a short but deep high aspect keel which is mounted over a much smaller area, as it the case with more modern higher performance models.

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That is why the clever people who design these boats also desgn structures to absorb such forces, rather than relying on bulk and brute force in the past. There are many owners of old boats with long chord keel mountings that can tell you about the damage suffered from running aground.

 

[roblpm]

A very fair and balanced post, are you sure you are on the right forum? ; )

To address the original question, I suspect that a brand new boat is a bit a vanity purchase but why not, most of us do not have the option.

I think it is a very sound idea to look at your requirements 10 years ahead of retirement. I don't think it is the best plan to down tools, buy a new/used boat, and sail off in it.

Hmmmmm you are the voice of reason!! So no escape for me. Actually 12 years and 3 months. Not that I'm counting. I will be 58.

 

[mlthomas]

You have touched a raw nerve here. There are people around still that think nothing much has been any good since the 1970's and that the ability to crash into rocks and survive is a sign of a good boat (ignoring of course the many boats built since then that have done just that).

Good thing there is a plentiful supply of such boats at rock bottom prices to keep that market happy.

it does divide the forum somewhat, pick on 1970 I remember the new fangled 8 track tapes, if you were lucky you had a telephone and of course a stereo-gramme which played 78 records, you may even have paid £998 for a mk 1 Mini and it does amuse me to think that boats could not have advanced in that time while the rest of the world moved on. So. We have had two models of the Oceanis range and both the hull and sail plan are significantly different and improved, neither have had any warranty work, two cabin so not aimed at the charter market and Benni did some custom work for us on the current one. The comment on hitting rocks was about you know what damage you have done to your own boat, not that an older boat is better at taking impacts!! the boats that hit the rocks date from the early 90's so not new however, you should try to avoid the things marked on the charts and not try to sail over them.
probably get some abuse for this

 

[JollyRodgers]

By vanity I really mean proving to myself that I am successful by splashing the cash about!!

I would think a slightly older (10 years or so) yacht that is 50-80ft region would be more impressive than a brand new 30-40ft.

I actually like the older boats. I think that a lot of the new ones lack character and all look like they have been in moulds. Soulless.

 

[dnickj]

hi if you have the same insecurity issues in 12 years as you do now I would suggest that you spend the money on therapy
On the other hand do not underestimate how you will change between now and then I had very similar plans to you 10 years ago - in reality I am now planning to pack it all in next year at 57 but now I realise I have to be self financing for the rest of my life and not rely on working for a living so your big pile of cash might not all want to be blown on a boat

 

[maby]

We bought our third boat (first reasonably large boat) new following a couple of failed attempts at buying used when significant defects were discovered on survey. We also bought our current (fourth) boat new - the dealer was willing to give us a part-exchange which makes the process so much easier. When you buy a used boat, there is usually no opportunity to part-exchange and it is easy to either be left without a boat for ages, or find yourself with two - and the corresponding costs of moorings and insurance for both.

 

[roblpm]

hi if you have the same insecurity issues in 12 years as you do now I would suggest that you spend the money on therapy
On the other hand do not underestimate how you will change between now and then I had very similar plans to you 10 years ago - in reality I am now planning to pack it all in next year at 57 but now I realise I have to be self financing for the rest of my life and not rely on working for a living so your big pile of cash might not all want to be blown on a boat

Thanks!! I am pretty sure I will cease to be insecure the day I sell my business and reduce the people I am financially responsible for from about 20 to 3 (my wife can support herself!!)

I am sure you are right about the money. It will become more important to conserve the cash. I think in my case a second hand boat will be the way I go as much as I would like a shiny new one!!

 

[CreakyDecks]

If you are retired at 58 in this day and age, you don't need to engender any more jealousy by buying a new boat!

 

[maby]

You could do the sensible thing, sell the business and house and buy a really big, new boat! How long do you intend to live anyway? I'm in the process of helping an elderly aunt move into a residential nursing home and watching my mother slowly go blind - both in their early nineties - old age is grossly overrated! I'm aiming to carry on working - on reduced hours - till I'm in my mid seventies, perhaps spend a few years bumming around on the boat, then stir a couple of dozen Vallium into half a bottle of brandy and doze off in the cockpit.

 

[Birdseye]

You can make your costs tell whatever tale you want by simply including or excluding items you do not see as costs and perhaps calling them investments and particularly ignoring the time value of your money.

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That sounds just like the Labour manifesto. Call something "investment" and you dont have to worry about the spending.