Arcona

[lustyd]

One of RNLI's current most frequent types of shout is to a sailing vessel with engine failure. I suspect dirty fuel might be replaced by flat batteries as a common reason for needing assistance.

While true, it's their choice to help people who are not in danger, and they seem to like doing so to get the stats up which leads to more donations. It's easy enough to fix and not related to electric.

Doesn't help the time poor cash rich weekend sailors though.

No, but then they aren't sailors anyway so not currently the target market. Motor boats will likely get their own solution, and some of those motor boats will have masts, just like today.

Why scrap the whole hydrocarbon infrastructure and embed lots of carbon in the manufacture of replacement motors and batteries?

Partly because of emissions and air quality. There are more issues with hydrocarbons than availability.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It depends on your definition of sailors, there are plenty of people that only sail at weekends and a couple of weeks in the summer, are they not sailors?

 

[DJE]

Partly because of emissions and air quality. There are more issues with hydrocarbons than availability.

Plenty of pollution issues associated with battery production too.

 

[lustyd]

Plenty of pollution issues associated with battery production too.

Most of those are already dealt with. Cobalt is no longer necessary and lithium recycling has been in place for some time.

It depends on your definition of sailors, there are plenty of people that only sail at weekends and a couple of weeks in the summer, are they not sailors?

Not if they motor everywhere, no. I'd find it hard to include people who think a 3 hour break at anchor to stem a tide will ruin their plans for the weekend. If 3 hours is an issue then the plan was overambititious for a weekend. People also seem to forget that in the oft-cited Bristol channel, that strong tide helps as often as it hinders, so if you leave at the right time you won't be fighting it! If you can't get somewhere in one tide, or have crew for overnight sailing, then it's not a weekend plan.

 

[BabaYaga]

Not really, it suggests that when they are re-engined they will be upgraded to electric. The cost of this is dropping rapidly and the cost of diesel is skyrocketing. It won't be long before the tax dodge is removed either, and then the cost of diesel will have a huge impact on the motor boat fraternity, whether they have a mast/sails on their motor boat or not.

I still think that there will be a place in the future for hydrocarbon fuels. But they will have to be produced sustainably. There are huge numbers of chemists working on synthetic photosynthesis and a Swiss university has a pilot plant producing methanol from sunlight and atmospheric CO2.

Why scrap the whole hydrocarbon infrastructure and embed lots of carbon in the manufacture of replacement motors and batteries?

There are many millions of diesel engines in use around the world in transport, construction, agriculture... All of these will not easily and quickly be replaced by or converted to electric drive. As the price of fossil diesel fuel will rise sharply (rightly so), there will be a strong incentive to develop processes for non-fossil diesel fuel, biofuel but also 'electro fuels' as outlined by DJE. As pleasure boating accounts for only a tiny portion of diesel use, I am hopeful that the boating community will be able to benefit from this.
FWIW, this last season I have run my diesel engine mostly on HVO100, that is 100 percent non fossil fuel with a quite small carbon footprint.

Also, from a climate perspective, current battery manufacturing is not without problems. A typical electric car may have to be run for a year in typical use to offset the carbon footprint of batteries and to put it 'on par' with a normal fossil fuel car. This seems to imply, to me at least, that electrifying by use of batteries should be geared towards sectors where the batteries can be used to their full potential (thereby replacing a lot of fossil fuel).
I do not see that sailing boats are in that sector, generally.

 

[lustyd]

HVO100, that is 100 percent non fossil fuel with a quite low carbon footprint

Unfortunately carbon is just the current fetish. That fuel is also responsible for a fair amount of methane in production, which is considerably worse than carbon. Once this train gets rolling you can expect methane to be taken into account in short order and so growing things to burn, however indirectly, is not a good long term option. A study I read suggested the Amazon rainforest has a net negative (detrimental) effect on global warming for this reason, since all of the rotting vegetation on the floor gives off methane once starved of oxygen.

I agree that batteries may not be the answer. Our data centres have started using hydrogen for local generation, and this is sourced from excess solar/wind when available.

Edit to add - this is all based on an assumption that eco friendly is the main driver for electric yachts, and it isn't!

 

[fredrussell]

…No, but then they aren't sailors anyway so not currently the target market.

Pompous! I do a five day working week, sail at the weekend- can you explain to me why I’m not a sailor?

 

[lustyd]

Pompous! I do a five day working week, sail at the weekend- can you explain to me why I’m not a sailor?

I didn't say you weren't a sailor. I can only assume you included yourself in my statement due to excess motoring on your part, otherwise you may well be a sailor for all I know!

 

[fredrussell]

He said:

Doesn't help the time poor cash rich weekend sailors though.

…to which you replied “they aren’t sailors anyway”. Since I belong to said group, I’m asking why you feel I’m not a sailor?

 

[lustyd]

Obviously I meant the ones who feel the need to motor for hours on end. It's entirely possible to sail at weekends, I do so myself. If you read the context of the comment rather than going straight to argument mode it would help

 

[Kerenza]

Exactly. Kerenza has not realised the primary "engine" on his boat are his sails
Wow thanks for that. Must redo my IRC certificate, looks like my rating should come down quite a lot.

When asked, quite a long time ago in a magazine interview for tips on BC sailing, my number one was 2 vhf radios, second was a reliable engine, or 2 if you were a motorboat. I still stand by that.

As an aside, we often have S.I.s which specify an engine with enough fuel capable of achieving a safe haven, for obvious reasons.

As that could easily be 30mls up tide...
K

 

[lustyd]

These electric boats will easily manage 30 miles uptide or otherwise. I don't know what these obvious reasons are that you mention, and I don't know why you're implying that electric motors aren't reliable. They are demonstrably more reliable than diesels and require considerably less maintenance to remain that way.

 

[BabaYaga]

Unfortunately carbon is just the current fetish. That fuel is also responsible for a fair amount of methane in production, which is considerably worse than carbon. Once this train gets rolling you can expect methane to be taken into account in short order and so growing things to burn, however indirectly, is not a good long term option.

If you are referring to HVO, I would question that statement. Choice of source material will obviously impact possible increase of methane emissions, but hard to see that what is currently used – left overs from forestry and slaughterhouse waste – will do so. Besides, methane may be a much more potent GH gas than CO2 per kilo, but also much more short lived. Accounts for about 20 percent of manmade GHG emissions. Carbon is no fetish.

this is all based on an assumption that eco friendly is the main driver for electric yachts, and it isn't!

Global warming is the main driver for electrifying the road transport sector, leading to large scale development of battery technology. It it also the driver for the policies that will push the fossil fuel price during the next decades (which we both seem to predict). Without these major trends there would be no scope for electric yachts IMHO.

 

[lustyd]

That may have started it off, but there are many reasons to go electric both for cars and boats. Near silent operation, drastically reduced maintenance, improved reliabiliy, regeneration of electricity, removing various chemical substances, no fumes to worry about, less heat to worry about, all the torque at all RPM (helps cutting through chop, apparently) the list goes on. As a side effect, it also produces less greenhouse gases.

 

[Kerenza]

The obvious reasons, at least to us who sail regularly in difficult conditions, range from dismasting to rendering assistance and worse. All of which I have experienced.

 

[lustyd]

The obvious reasons, at least to us who sail regularly in difficult conditions, range from dismasting to rendering assistance and worse. All of which I have experienced.

Wow talk about moving goalposts! Are you suggesting that a yacht needs to be able to provide a 6 hour tow in a storm just to be usable?

Would you care to specify the exact minimum range you require to meet these seemingly ever increasing needs? And the towing capacity in tonnes? All I can say is that your boating needs are fairly exceptional so you certainly are better off with a motor boat, you then won't suffer another dismasting and could more easily provide support. Perhaps a lifeboat would suit you?

 

[Kerenza]

I can move goalposts at lot farther than that, but that's not my intention nor is it the point, which you again miss completely.
I am a leisure sailor who sometimes finds himself in challenging conditions.
If I am to continue my sport and diesel becomes unavailable then I will have to make decisions about safety which I presently don't have to.
And so will many other UK based sailors.

 

[fredrussell]

Obviously I meant the ones who feel the need to motor for hours on end. It's entirely possible to sail at weekends, I do so myself. If you read the context of the comment rather than going straight to argument mode it would help

I just feel you made a sweeping statement about sailors that motor a lot. There are any number of reasons why people might motor their sailing boats more than you; reduced stamina due to ill health would be the obvious example.

 

[lustyd]

I can move goalposts at lot farther than that, but that's not my intention nor is it the point, which you again miss completely.
I am a leisure sailor who sometimes finds himself in challenging conditions.
If I am to continue my sport and diesel becomes unavailable then I will have to make decisions about safety which I presently don't have to.
And so will many other UK based sailors.

Quite the contrary. I and others have explained that "challenging conditions" in a yacht is the time to use the sails, not the engine. Sailing is not a safety issue, it's the safest option. When conditions get especially challenging I'd rather have electric as a backup than diesel since it doesn't need to keep an oil supply upright, nor does it need clean seawater (and pipes, and cocks) to stay cool and prevent catastropic failure, nor will it choke when the tiny amount of dirt or water in the tank is stirred up. The vast majority of private yachts will manage only a few minutes under engine in rough seas before failure of some kind.

 

[Kerenza]

You need an engineer if your installation is that bad.
We are examining situations where it's not option 1 to sail.
Just get used to the fact that some things work and others don't. Try to choose the safest so I don't need to use my "lifeboat" to save you.