Anybody else not, qualified?

[Mark-1]

To even become a dinghy instructor you need to pass a sailing assessment, it can't be that you have "no knowledge whatsoever".

I have no knowledge whatsoever of teaching sailing or fast RIBs. I'm now qualified in both. My hobby is sailing so I do have knowledge of that, and a love of it. I'm not qualified in that.

Certainly my point still stands - would YOU hand over your boat to a stranger who have no proof they had a clue?

My point also holds true. People have hired boats to people without quals and still do. And yeah. If I had a charter business I would hire to anyone I legally could. The last thing I'd want to do it turn away customers. You don't run a charter firm if gelcoat chips keep you awake at night.

I am struggling to imagine anyone who "should not have a qualification in first aid". Which part of that course were you unable to complete? Or did you somehow think that a 1 day first aid course was "qualifying" you as a paramedic or brain surgeon? I personally think its a reasonable expectation of anyone trusted to teach others to sail dinghies that they have a rudimentary knowledge of first aid. In fact I can't understand anyone who "needed" to teach dinghies not "wanting" to have that training to deal with the basics of a crisis if the preverbial hit the fan (or the prop!).

I'm not sure what you want me to say. You think I'm a capable first aider because I once listened to someone talking about first aid, but you literally don't trust my opinion as a fully qualified sailing first aider that I would be utterly useless at first aid. I'm not sure how we get over that paradox.

I know someone who was made to come back and do a 3rd day of those manouveres that your 8yr old could manage, and I know someone who sat the dinghy instructor preassessment 3 times (in 2 different centres) before being allowed to progress)

So all that proves is that utterly incompetent people pass these qualifications. You pass regardless of ability. That's exactly what I'm saying. They have no meaning in terms of ability or talent.

Nobody has forced you to do any of that! That suggests to me that whilst you've plenty to rant about, actually somewhere there was "value" in it - even if that value was just keeping an insurer happy, enabling some local authority funding or some other hassle factor.

The way it works is the RYA mandate certain instructor ratios to for courses. Some clubs use courses as a foundation for junior events. So those clubs need plenty of instructors or the junior events get cancelled. So they have to twist a few arms of parents and then a load of people have to buy the prerequisite courses and the courses themselves. So the value is the Junior events don't get cancelled. I meant there was no value in ensuring someone's usefulness.

Of course you don't need to offer formal RYA courses as a basis for junior events and I'd guess that clubs that don't have no problem finding enough volunteers.

 

[MontyMariner]

141 (now 142) posts on a thread that the OP deleted the text from, is this a record?
I wonder if the OP is following it.

 

[Mark-1]

In seven pages you are first to "come clean" so to speak sir, and there I was feeling decidedly the party of one. But its funny isnt it. Even back in the 1950's you had to have a car license, vehicle license, and of course a commercial shipping ticket and most definitely a log of progressive training that says you can fly a plane... but small leisure boating?
To me its always been something that you have a go at without much thgt really. I really do think to some degree the formalization of small boating has taken something away from what its really all about..... that of the age old term of....."messing about in boats".
Of course its not a bad idea to know how not to crash into the other guy but apart from that... well.

I can't see HW Tillman or Maurice Grifiths selling many copies if they'd written about their brave quest to get their Day Skipper qual.

....but seriously, each to their own, and I reserve the right to get a sailing qualification, if I ever need one.

 

[ylop]

I have no knowledge whatsoever of teaching sailing or fast RIBs. I'm now qualified in both. My hobby is sailing so I do have knowledge of that, and a love of it. I'm not qualified in that.

But you do have knowledge or both teaching dinghy sailing and operating a RIB - unless you are claiming you didn't actually go on the course, or were asleep during the training. That's how courses work - you come in with little knowledge and you leave with more. Now perhaps you think you should have more knowledge but its surely not no knowledge? There are CPD training opportunities, additional training in specific areas or higher level of training courses, as well as coaching courses etc. Oddly people who complain RYA training is too basic have rarely followed it all the way to its logical conclusion.

My point also holds true. People have hired boats to people without quals and still do. And yeah. If I had a charter business I would hire to anyone I legally could. The last thing I'd want to do it turn away customers. You don't run a charter firm if gelcoat chips keep you awake at night.

If you were able to run a viable charter business without screening people for their ability - you would probably be snowed under, because as far as I can see nobody else wants to (or can get insurance to) charter to people without bits of paper that prove they had some degree of competence.

I'm not sure what you want me to say. You think I'm a capable first aider because I once listened to someone talking about first aid, but you literally don't trust my opinion as a fully qualified sailing first aider that I would be utterly useless at first aid. I'm not sure how we get over that paradox.

I guess I would flip it rounds and say - if you genuinely believe you would be utterly useless at first aid (perhaps you are a panicker) then I would question if you should really be operating as a dinghy instructor! I don't think I necessarily expect you to be great at first aid - but if an accident happens and you are closest - I expect since you are performing the role of dinghy instructor that you will be first to help. Since presumably you don't operate alone you may well hand over care to a colleague - but in a serious incident I would expect you to still have a role to play (calling for help, getting a defib, dealing with a second casualty etc). If there is something about your personality or training which means you can't do that - then I agree the RYA should probably not have appointed you as an instructor. If its a physical mobility issue then a good first aid instructor (and I'm not saying the RYA is full of those) would have helped identify how you might deal with that - eg. by directing others.

So all that proves is that utterly incompetent people pass these qualifications. You pass regardless of ability. That's exactly what I'm saying. They have no meaning in terms of ability or talent.

No it proves that people are not automatically passed and made to come back and try again if they miss the required standard. Just like passing your driving test, on indeed almost any other qualification - if at first you don't succeed then you can resit. Indeed sometimes people that resit are better at it in the end, perhaps they get a different instructor who show them a different approach, perhaps its more practice, sometimes its just that something "clicks". In terms of teaching or explaining to others - those who had innate natural ability are not necessarily the best - they can find it hard to understand why others don't have the same automatic appreciation. Those who have had to relearn things different ways can be better at coaching others through different techniques.

The way it works is the RYA mandate certain instructor ratios to for courses. Some clubs use courses as a foundation for junior events. So those clubs need plenty of instructors or the junior events get cancelled. So they have to twist a few arms of parents and then a load of people have to buy the prerequisite courses and the courses themselves. So the value is the Junior events don't get cancelled. I meant there was no value in ensuring someone's usefulness.

Of course you don't need to offer formal RYA courses as a basis for junior events and I'd guess that clubs that don't have no problem finding enough volunteers.

So in fact you did believe it was worth doing because it meant that the junior training that you or your club wanted to provide could happen and it was in your interest (perhaps as a parent, perhaps as just a very keen club member) for that to happen. But it was entirely your choice. You could say no thanks. Personally if I believed I was a useless instructor I wouldn't do any instructing.

 

[Mark-1]

If you were able to run a viable charter business without screening people for their ability - you would probably be snowed under, because as far as I can see nobody else wants to (or can get insurance to) charter to people without bits of paper that prove they had some degree of competence.

I'm saying I've chartered a lot in various places with no sailing quals in response to someone who said that wasn't possible.

The first charter firm I googled doesn't require quals:
https://www.alba-sailing.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/CharterAgreement.pdf

But you do have knowledge or both teaching dinghy sailing and operating a RIB - unless you are claiming you didn't actually go on the course, or were asleep during the training. That's how courses work - you come in with little knowledge and you leave with more. Now perhaps you think you should have more knowledge but its surely not no knowledge? There are CPD training opportunities, additional training in specific areas or higher level of training courses, as well as coaching courses etc. Oddly people who complain RYA training is too basic have rarely followed it all the way to its logical conclusion.


I guess I would flip it rounds and say - if you genuinely believe you would be utterly useless at first aid (perhaps you are a panicker) then I would question if you should really be operating as a dinghy instructor! I don't think I necessarily expect you to be great at first aid - but if an accident happens and you are closest - I expect since you are performing the role of dinghy instructor that you will be first to help. Since presumably you don't operate alone you may well hand over care to a colleague - but in a serious incident I would expect you to still have a role to play (calling for help, getting a defib, dealing with a second casualty etc). If there is something about your personality or training which means you can't do that - then I agree the RYA should probably not have appointed you as an instructor. If its a physical mobility issue then a good first aid instructor (and I'm not saying the RYA is full of those) would have helped identify how you might deal with that - eg. by directing others.

No it proves that people are not automatically passed and made to come back and try again if they miss the required standard. Just like passing your driving test, on indeed almost any other qualification - if at first you don't succeed then you can resit. Indeed sometimes people that resit are better at it in the end, perhaps they get a different instructor who show them a different approach, perhaps its more practice, sometimes its just that something "clicks". In terms of teaching or explaining to others - those who had innate natural ability are not necessarily the best - they can find it hard to understand why others don't have the same automatic appreciation. Those who have had to relearn things different ways can be better at coaching others through different techniques.

So in fact you did believe it was worth doing because it meant that the junior training that you or your club wanted to provide could happen and it was in your interest (perhaps as a parent, perhaps as just a very keen club member) for that to happen. But it was entirely your choice. You could say no thanks. Personally if I believed I was a useless instructor I wouldn't do any instructing.

The rest of your post seems to support the "anti quals" case. (For want of a better word.) Far from insisting I must be a decent Instructor/Power Boat Helm/First Aider you seem pretty comfortable with the idea I might well be useless despite a glorious array of quals in those things which I have little or no experience of.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I think your experience @Mark-1 shows that qualifications are not really needed.

 

[ylop]

I'm saying I've chartered a lot in various places with no sailing quals in response to someone who said that wasn't possible.

The first charter firm I googled doesn't require quals:
https://www.alba-sailing.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/CharterAgreement.pdf

Their website seems to contradict itself by saying “It is obviously essential for the skipper to have appropriate sailing qualifications and significant practical experience in coastal waters.” and then saying we might accept detailed proof of experience in lieu of qualifications. They want skipper to have have coastal skipper (tidal) and first mate to have day skipper as a minimum. If their insurers don’t deem you to have sufficient experience you don’t get it bareboat. None of that is sounding like the suggestion you were making that their overriding priority is simply to rent the boat/make money.

The rest of your post seems to support the "anti quals" case. (For want of a better word.) Far from insisting I must be a decent Instructor/Power Boat Helm/First Aider you seem pretty comfortable with the idea I might well be useless despite a glorious array of quals in those things which I have little or no experience of.

I’ve never met you, but you are telling me you are clueless - I can take that a face value; what I don’t understand is how you then in all conscience get into a club rib responsible for the safety and instruction for minors. So either you are not as shit as you say or you are a walking liability.

 

[Mark-1]

Their website seems to contradict itself by saying “It is obviously essential for the skipper to have appropriate sailing qualifications and significant practical experience in coastal waters.” and then saying we might accept detailed proof of experience in lieu of qualifications. They want skipper to have have coastal skipper (tidal) and first mate to have day skipper as a minimum. If their insurers don’t deem you to have sufficient experience you don’t get it bareboat. None of that is sounding like the suggestion you were making that their overriding priority is simply to rent the boat/make money.

I’ve never met you, but you are telling me you are clueless - I can take that a face value; what I don’t understand is how you then in all conscience get into a club rib responsible for the safety and instruction for minors. So either you are not as shit as you say or you are a walking liability.

- They don't require qualifications.

- You're completely comfortable that people can easily get these quals whilst also being a walking liability. Which says it all.

 

[ylop]

- They don't require qualifications.

And what you started arguing with me about was my question: “would you rent a boat to a stranger with no proof of vague competence?”

I’ve not tried to rent from them but it certainly looks like they want some proof of competence. One way to show that would be the qualifications they suggest. I dare say regular clients also say (or imply) “well I didn’t sink it last time” - but you keep telling yourself charter companies place no value on qualifications. I hope you don’t need of charter - as you may find it harder than you used to.

- You're completely comfortable that people can easily get these quals whilst also being a walking liability. Which says it all.

its you who’s claiming to be a walking liability and still operating as an instructor, seemingly peddling an entire system of training that you despise… you need to look in the mirror. My experience is the vast majority of RYA instructors are pretty decent at their job and very few venture anywhere close to the walking liability end of the spectrum. I have encountered a few over the 35 years I’ve been sailing who are bit iffy, but they’ve all been part of RTCs which were not well managed (IMHO) - and probably reflected as much the organisation thinking/attitude as the individual ability.

 

[MontyMariner]

you seem pretty comfortable with the idea I might well be useless despite a glorious array of quals in those things which I have little or no experience of.

Isn't there an old adage 'Those that can't do, teach'
PS for the rest of the readers, I know you are competent.

 

[Mark-1]

And what you started arguing with me about was my question: “would you rent a boat to a stranger with no proof of vague competence?”

I’ve not tried to rent from them but it certainly looks like they want some proof of competence. One way to show that would be the qualifications they suggest. I dare say regular clients also say (or imply) “well I didn’t sink it last time” - but you keep telling yourself charter companies place no value on qualifications. I hope you don’t need of charter - as you may find it harder than you used to.

its you who’s claiming to be a walking liability and still operating as an instructor, seemingly peddling an entire system of training that you despise… you need to look in the mirror. My experience is the vast majority of RYA instructors are pretty decent at their job and very few venture anywhere close to the walking liability end of the spectrum. I have encountered a few over the 35 years I’ve been sailing who are bit iffy, but they’ve all been part of RTCs which were not well managed (IMHO) - and probably reflected as much the organisation thinking/attitude as the individual

OK, fair winds.

 

[billskip]

Isn't there an old adage 'Those that can't do, teach'

Also 'don't feed the trols'

 

[st599]

Assuming your course wasn't endorsed to say it was for displacement craft only it should/would have included some higher speed manouveres.

Not necessarily, at one club where I used to teach they have a fast rib but their stretch of river has a 4 knot limit. RYA don't allow you to teach outside a club's patch and the EA only allow high speed in emergency situations (not teaching how to deal with such an emergency), so RYA are happy for instructors to describe the high speed manoeuvres.

 

[Bouba]

Not necessarily, at one club where I used to teach they have a fast rib but their stretch of river has a 4 knot limit. RYA don't allow you to teach outside a club's patch and the EA only allow high speed in emergency situations (not teaching how to deal with such an emergency), so RYA are happy for instructors to describe the high speed manoeuvres.

Learner drivers aren’t allowed on the motorway either.....

 

[trapper guy]

there a a bit of silliness i noted in my day skipper course, seemed to me to represent over officiousness than any kind of sense.
that was concerning radar reflectors.
to summarise, 'they dont really work, but you still need to have one'

can anyone elaborate?

that and the overly plummy extra english accent of the guy presenting it, i swear he damn near brought up a loogy when pronouncing 'lochs'.

but there does appear to be an ever expanding training sector in the uk.
who ever needed a certificate for climbing a ladder??
but i can assure you, i AM qualified, officially
i sat ONE driving test in 1989
ive since sat 10+ forklift driving tests, having never failed a single one, i swear i could quote the courses word for word with my eyes shut

 

[st599]

there a a bit of silliness i noted in my day skipper course, seemed to me to represent over officiousness than any kind of sense.
that was concerning radar reflectors.
to summarise, 'they dont really work, but you still need to have one'

can anyone elaborate?

They're a requirement of SOLAS V

 

[ylop]

Not necessarily, at one club where I used to teach they have a fast rib but their stretch of river has a 4 knot limit. RYA don't allow you to teach outside a club's patch and the EA only allow high speed in emergency situations (not teaching how to deal with such an emergency), so RYA are happy for instructors to describe the high speed manoeuvres.

even if RYA are “happy” with this - you have to wonder what the club are actually thinking in terms of equipping their crews to respond to an emergency. It’s not like there is a shortage of other places to train and gain such experience. I’m not sure which would be worse, trying to explain to little johnnys mum that you had just mashed him or trying to explain to the coroner that the committee decided nobody should need real world experience before heading at speed towards the child in the water!

FWIW the RYA don’t define club’s “patches”. Clubs / RTCs define their operating limits. I know of clubs that work from more than one location, I know of other clubs who have relationships with nearby (or far away) clubs to arrange training. I am still surprised that an RTC would issue PB certificates with the planing endorsement on them without actually having brought a boat onto the plane. If I had been a candidate on that course I would not feel equipped to do safety boat work - and would have built experience elsewhere before offering my time to the club. I realise a lot of people won’t know what they don’t know - it’s the clubs job to manage that not to hide behind an “rya said it’s ok”.

 

[ylop]

there a a bit of silliness i noted in my day skipper course, seemed to me to represent over officiousness than any kind of sense.
that was concerning radar reflectors.
to summarise, 'they dont really work, but you still need to have one'

can anyone elaborate?

The solas regulations require any vessel capable of carrying a radar reflector to do so. Radar reflectors DO work but perhaps not as well as many people assume - some are particularly shonky, some work ok on level boats but not with even a small heel and some can be errected in a manner which means they are likely to work better but it’s not uncommon to see them mounted the “wrong” way.

who ever needed a certificate for climbing a ladder??

Falls from height is a remarkably common cause of serious workplace injury / death. It appears that what is obvious to you may not be obvious to the wider population.

 

[trapper guy]

The solas regulations require any vessel capable of carrying a radar reflector to do so. Radar reflectors DO work but perhaps not as well as many people assume - some are particularly shonky, some work ok on level boats but not with even a small heel and some can be errected in a manner which means they are likely to work better but it’s not uncommon to see them mounted the “wrong” way.

Falls from height is a remarkably common cause of serious workplace injury / death. It appears that what is obvious to you may not be obvious to the wider population.

i think, in general, that all these training courses are not designed to prevent accidents, simply because accidents ARE accidents by their very nature.
but more to absolve the insurers of liability.

i mean, you KNOW how not to do it, you have a certificate of competence, so therefore you are more at fault than our liability covers, you should have known NOT to do that.

 

[trapper guy]

Learner drivers aren’t allowed on the motorway either.....

never stopped me
i was up and down the motorway to coventry and manchester before i ever passed my test.
tempting fate here maybe, but ive never had an at fault bump in over 30 years.

i have however avoided many that could have been caused by other drivers, simply by being aware of my surroundings and other drivers.