Anybody else not, qualified?

[ylop]

i think, in general, that all these training courses are not designed to prevent accidents, simply because accidents ARE accidents by their very nature.
but more to absolve the insurers of liability.

You might think that but the evidence seems to suggest that training people not to fall off stuff actually helps them not fall off stuff! Just because something is an accident does not mean it can’t be prevented. I’m not saying every accident can be prevented or even that it’s desirable to try and prevent every accident - but clearly there are mistakes people make because they didn’t understand, or didn’t appreciate the risk, or weren’t aware of a better way which were not intentional, so by definition are accidental, but that can be mitigated with training.

i mean, you KNOW how not to do it, you have a certificate of competence, so therefore you are more at fault than our liability covers, you should have known NOT to do that.

There will be some of that, but if your employer knows you were trained in the right way but you still commonly do it the wrong way they aren’t off the hook, especially if there’s something the employer does that makes it likely you still cut corners.

 

[ylop]

Learner drivers aren’t allowed on the motorway either.....

Actually they are now! Provided they are accompanied by a qualified instructor who feels they are ready for the motorway!

 

[Bouba]

Actually they are now! Provided they are accompanied by a qualified instructor who feels they are ready for the motorway!

But........ I was on your side

 

[ylop]

But........ I was on your side

I don’t know that we had sides! I’ll try harder! Your point, whatever it was (but if we are on the same side it must be right ;-)) is probably still valid - we don’t let unsupervised learners loose on the motorway!

 

[Stemar]

When I passed my driving test, my instructor said, "Well done! Now you can learn to drive." That was well over 50 years ago, and I'm still learning. My Day Skipper instructor didn't say the same thing, but took it the same way, and I'm still learning.

The day I stop learning will be the day to give up - driving, sailing and a lot of other stuff, because I've lost the learning mindset which I regard as an important part of staying safe.

 

[rogerthebodger]

The day I stop learning will be the day to give up - driving, sailing and a lot of other stuff, because I've lost the learning mindset which I regard as an important part of staying safe.

My view is the day I stop learning is the day I am put in the ground. Life is a continuous learning experience

 

[capnsensible]

Isn't there an old adage 'Those that can't do, teach'
PS for the rest of the readers, I know you are competent.

Which is utter nonsense written by people who have proven to be inadequate.....

Back on topic. Hurrah if you can charter a boat. I have run a yacht charter business, so listen very carefully I will say this only once. Its all about insurance. If you turn up as an intergalactic starship commander without any formal certificate of competence, the yes/no decision to go and possibly break a boat is all down to the insurer. Several times we had people who were clearly competent but we had to supply evidence of their experience to the insurers. They say no, you don't go. Simple.

If you have been tested in your ability to be able to do something and you still feel you lack any ability, don't do it. No one wants to look a nerk. Go and get more experience. Which is what sailing coaches bring to the party. Experience. Oh and being bold, ambitious and determined......

 

[Daydream believer]

Falls from height is a remarkably common cause of serious workplace injury / death. It appears that what is obvious to you may not be obvious to the wider population.

I support that comment fully. There is actually a way to climb a ladder & many do not do it properly. ie. You will see many carrying loads up a ladder, whereby they cannot keep to the 3 point attachment rule at all times.
A lot have never heard of it.

 

[NormanS]

I support that comment fully. There is actually a way to climb a ladder & many do not do it properly. ie. You will see many carrying loads up a ladder, whereby they cannot keep to the 3 point attachment rule at all times.
A lot have never heard of it.

I'm sure that you're correct, however back in the real world this morning I was up a ladder, fitting a couple of louvred vents up on the gable end of my house. How would you suggest getting the louvres, drill, hand tools up there? And having got up, how to do the job all with one hand? By the way, job done, and I've survived.

 

[scozzy]

The 3 point rule for ladders is also prone to abuse/debatable? as your body can be considered a "point of contact" for a "brief" period of time.Whos to say how brief? How many electricians can wire your ceiling light with one hand?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Talk about over analyzing. The 3 point contact is only when climbing. Once at the desired height, do the job with both hands. I use a bucket or bag to lift the tools and stuff up, or my pockets, tool belt, it’s not an IQ test, just common sense.

 

[RupertW]

Which is utter nonsense written by people who have proven to be inadequate.....

Back on topic. Hurrah if you can charter a boat. I have run a yacht charter business, so listen very carefully I will say this only once. Its all about insurance. If you turn up as an intergalactic starship commander without any formal certificate of competence, the yes/no decision to go and possibly break a boat is all down to the insurer. Several times we had people who were clearly competent but we had to supply evidence of their experience to the insurers. They say no, you don't go. Simple.

If you have been tested in your ability to be able to do something and you still feel you lack any ability, don't do it. No one wants to look a nerk. Go and get more experience. Which is what sailing coaches bring to the party. Experience. Oh and being bold, ambitious and determined......

Interesting. We chartered a couple of times (in the Caribbean) before I had got any sailing qualifications at all. By then I’d been sailing 20 years as an adult and 10 before that and had owned a couple of boats including my Dad’s last one, and had got as far as Spain on our South Coast based cruises.

Not a problem at all chartering with no paper, but this was 1999 and 2001.

I only went for a bunch of theory and practical courses up to Yachtmaster Offshore when I wanted to do professional deliveries soon after that. Did the courses over a couple of months, expecting to learn a bit more about leadership of bigger crews but not much else. I was very wrong - not only did I alas not learn anything memorable about leadership to add to my existing abilities , but I did learn shedloads about all the normal things I’d been doing for years, including many better alternatives and also some underlying principles of why some things were good, some not so good.

Money and time very well spent and I’ve been much more of a sponge for different peoples experiences and methods ever since.

 

[The Q]

Another one with over 50 years of having a first aid certificate, first time 1970...
In all the years the only thing I've had to treat is a cut finger..

It got close at the sailing club and looked across to Horning Staithe to see someone performing CPR.. I was just about to grab the club defibrillator when an ambulance turned up.
Later I saw lady crying her eyes out, going back across the river which suggests the victim did not survive.

These days I get the retraining every 2 years as I'm a volunteer guardship crew for, Home
We've had minor injuries during the race and to my knowledge just one serious one, a lady was hit by a mast being dropped and got her jaw broken. . That was about 15 miles from my guardship though..

I have had hypothermia from sailing , capsizing from a laser dinghy into water with ice flows in it...

Almost every hirer of broads motor boats is unqualified, and it shows, luckily at the slow speed of the broads most bumps are minor, but I have seen a motorboat T boned by a 45ft hire craft and split from cabin roof to below the water line. Truth be told on most of the broads if the motorboat sank you could stand on the roof and not get your feet wet.

Have had problems with the qualified on the broads..
A, quoting colregs which don't apply here.
and
B, wanting clearances between boats that are appropriate for open waters, but not on the tight waters of the Broads..

 

[Graham_Wright]

Almost every hirer of broads motor boats is unqualified, and it shows, luckily at the slow speed of the broads most bumps are minor, but I have seen a motorboat T boned by a 45ft hire craft and split from cabin roof to below the water line.

Done that - as the T boner. Aged 16, schoolboy trip with a fleet of 6. I had a half decker and turning her round to start the day's trip, she stopped answering the helm. Hit a cruiser with the bowsprit at right angles. Rather large bang and a very irate corpulent gentleman venting his wrath.
Turned out keelboats sheared leaving just the centre one which acted as a nice pivot. Steering by keel wins over steering by rudder in a competition!
Left a nice aiming mark in the cruiser hull.

 

[finestgreen]

Have had problems with the qualified on the broads..
A, quoting colregs which don't apply here.

I'm surprised to learn this! I thought it was navigable from the sea?

 

[The Q]

It is navigable from the sea but the 1988 act of parliament creating the broads authority , gave it powers of broads regulation.
Even before that there were different rules on the broads, at one time running boats on any tack had to give way to all tacking boats.
Many harbours have to a greater or lesser extent have regulations that over ride colregs.

The Broads Authority are a harbour control authority, but NOT national park authority. By legal fudge they a member of the National parks family without being one.

As for broads regs themselves they are for the most part similar in meaning to Colregs, but there are differences.

The full set of broads regs are here..

Byelaws and speed limits

 

[st599]

I'm surprised to learn this! I thought it was navigable from the sea?

There are parts of the Thames where boats crossing the river give way to those transiting the river. Great fun when running dinghy racing open meetings.

 

[Laser310]

I just got an ICC by assessment, in early September.

I studied up on everything for a week or two prior to the assessment, to be sure i would pass. It was a good thing I did, as there was some material that I was sort of vaguely familiar with, but didn't know in enough detail; lights, mostly.

I got it because I had been planning a charter in the Med.

In the end, I chartered in Brittany, and was told by the charter company that it wasn't needed in France. I never was asked for it.

The charter company did want a sailing resume before accepting my contract.

 

[14K478]

I can't see HW Tillman or Maurice Grifiths selling many copies if they'd written about their brave quest to get their Day Skipper qual.

....but seriously, each to their own, and I reserve the right to get a sailing qualification, if I ever need one.

Funnily enough, I knew both of them.

MG was quite open about how he learned to sail - in quite the wrong way, according to everyone including himself. He sold his Gauge 1 model railway and bought a half share, with a school friend, in an old deep draft six ton cutter that they kept on the upper Orwell. They learned by making mistakes… they seem to have made most of them, but MG was hooked and the following year he bought a 17ft converted ship’s boat on the Deben - chapter one of “The Magic of the Swatchways”…

HWT joined a friend’s small boat for a trip across the Irish Sea, discovered that he liked sailing, and, wisely, on the advice of friends, bought himself a fourteen foot dinghy to learn in.

Armed with this experience he joined Robert Somerset as crew on the yawl “Iolaire”, in the Mediterranean, to learn bigger boats, cruising, and navigation.

Having done this, he asked Humphrey Barton, who ran the brokerage business of Laurent Giles and Partners, to recommend a suitable boat for a trip to Patagonia and Barton sold him “Mischief” and helped him sail her back to Lymington.

Chapter One of “Mischief in Patagonia”…

 

[Mark-1]

Funnily enough, I knew both of them.

MG was quite open about how he learned to sail - in quite the wrong way, according to everyone including himself. He sold his Gauge 1 model railway and bought a half share, with a school friend, in an old deep draft six ton cutter that they kept on the upper Orwell. They learned by making mistakes… they seem to have made most of them, but MG was hooked and the following year he bought a 17ft converted ship’s boat on the Deben - chapter one of “The Magic of the Swatchways”…

HWT joined a friend’s small boat for a trip across the Irish Sea, discovered that he liked sailing, and, wisely, on the advice of friends, bought himself a fourteen foot dinghy to learn in.

Armed with this experience he joined Robert Somerset as crew on the yawl “Iolaire”, in the Mediterranean, to learn bigger boats, cruising, and navigation.

Having done this, he asked Humphrey Barton, who ran the brokerage business of Laurent Giles and Partners, to recommend a suitable boat for a trip to Patagonia and Barton sold him “Mischief” and helped him sail her back to Lymington.

Chapter One of “Mischief in Patagonia”…

It's astonishing how many Forumites knew or sailed with Tilman. (Unless you've name changed and I'm double counting.)

MG I'm slightly less suprised about, he must have known a vast number of people in sailing.

Anyhow very impressive thanks for sharing, and I've just re-read the first few pages of MiP on the back of it.