Anchors

[TNLI]

Meanwhile, back on topic (almost!).

A number of people have commented on the variation in the general tendencies - larger or smaller - of different manufacturers' recommendations for anchor sizes and weights.

I think that for manufacturers (e.g Kobra) recommending on the low side many people would err on the next size up, whereas for those such as Manson recommending on the upward side, many people would also err on the next size up!

I think the general differences in recommendations are to some significant degree reflective of their marketing to different types of customers, mores than to difference in boaters' needs or anchors' performances.

Manufacturers' recommends for my boat, just over 8m, and 4 tonnes
- Kobra 8kg = 18lb (n.b. the same Kobra's recommended up to 10m)
- Manson Supreme Coastal - 25lbs
- Manson Supreme Offshore - 35lbs

So do Manson really have such little confidence in their Supreme anchor that it needs upsizing 40% on a Kobra for coastal sailing, and 95% for offshore? Or could it really be true that the Kobra recommended sizes are inadequate? (I think my current Bruce copy is v. similar in size to the recommended Kobra - IIRC 7.5kgs/16.5lbs, so far adequate, but not severely tested. I'd rather have a NG than the Bruce-alike, but it doesn't look/feel undersized to me. )

I think we can (almost) all accept that it is an inexact science, and that one would need a lot more detail in addition to weight and or length to judge appropriate sizing, but then one runs into the lack of robust research into the different details of both anchors' capabilities in different scenarios, the different loads the different types of boats may put on them, and the variations in peoples skills, and the types of use and expectations of anchors.

I suspect that it is almost inevitable that recommedations for anchors aimed at the cheaper end of the market will lean towards smaller sizing - they are being sold at least partly on price and being adequate, while the premium product manufacturers will tend to encourage you to spend even more money on a larger size, assuming most of their customers will have money to spare. If you look at car ads, the cheaper makes & models will emphasise their economy and practicality, the premium makes models will emphasise additional optional extras and deluxe models that you 'really' need.

Looking at the Manson (premium) recommendations, for example, I found it interesting that anchoring for 'offshore' sailing requires spending more money than 'coastal' sailing. I sort of know what they mean - 'coastal' sailors are less likely to want or need to anchor in marginal locations/conditions - but who actually anchors offshore?, and you could think an 'adequate' anchor would be adequate whatever. (Many people will 'go up a size', even if the recommendations have already done that once, and when their actual intended sailing/anchoring is perfectly normal. Anchor size inflation!)

Curiously, Manson suggest that traditional anchors suit traditional boats, and vice versa, which I find highly questionable.
'The New Generation anchor range use materials and designs suited to the latest boat designs.' and 'The Traditional anchor range uses classic designs like the Plough (CQR) or Ray (Bruce) Anchor suited to older boat styles.'

Their anchor size calculator appears to allow you to get sizing recommendations on traditional anchors ( CQR and Bruce), but it doesn't, and when you've inserted your boat size etc. details it instead invites you to contact them for advice. No doubt for a pep talk on the advantages of the Supreme over the dangers of old generation anchors!

Also surprising, and somewhat contrary to my hypothesis about marketing, are Manson's chain size recommendations for my boat, they suggest 6mm to 8mm chain. Most traditionalists would have kittens at the idea of a 6mm chain on an 8m, 4 tonne boat. Even leaving that aside, the recommended juxtaposition of 6mm chain with a 35lb/16kg anchor does give one a start!

I would not pay any attention to the recommended weights and chain sizes, just fit the biggest anchor and chain you can fit on deck or on the bow, bearing in mind that it's one real good idea to have a secondary anchor rigged and ready, although that need not be mounted on the bow if you don't have twin rollers. The secondary can be clamped to the stanchions which is how some lifeboats secure their second anchor.

6mm chain is the minimum that willl fit on most manual or powered windlasses. My alloy lifeboat is very light, so 6mm is fine, but my secondary chain is only 5mm, as I was given that by a chap moving up to 6mm. 5mm chain is OK in chain stoppers and there are chain hooks that will fit 6 or 5mm chain. 8mm is a bit OTT for an 8 m boat. The Jimmy Green web site has some good anchors and advice about chain sizes.

It's not a bad idea to stick to one manufacturer when buying anchors or chain. The best appears to be Lewmar, as they make 2 types of CQR, the very popular and extentsively copied Delta, 2 types of Danforth, (Steel and alloy), the Claw, (Bruce), a Brittany, (Not a good version of a Danforth in me umble opinion), and the unproven Epsilon. So seven good old generation anchors and one new one. Alas no short scope deep water anchors yet. The Claw, (Bruce) will work in rocks and the Delta or CQR in weeds, so it's the deep water short scope anchors that are missing. Luke seem to be the best company for deep water/short rope rode anchors. This clip shows how easily their 3 piece is assembled: www.peluke.com - YouTube
Better than my fully folding Herry, which takes more time to rig and needs chains. It's a keeper though, so I'm going to modify it with a removable slide bar release, so no need for a trip line if it gets jammed in rocks or a wreck in particular.

Can't understand why Manson suggest anything to do with a CQR or Bruce, although I agree the old classic boats do need an older generation anchor, cos they were more solidly built, so weigh more, hence the need for a heavy anchor.

If you are thinking of buying a Manson of any type read this web site:
About the Manson Supreme Anchor (petersmith.net.nz)

 

[TNLI]

Sorry, not allowed to edit my posts at present, but this part of the Petersmith tests is interesting if you like the Manson series:
Comparison Testing - CQR vs Manson Plow vs Rocna (petersmith.net.nz)

So now you might think the Rocna is the way to go, but alas you might just want to read a few more articles on 180 degree veer test and structural issues.
Rocna Resetting Failures and evaluation of Vulcan and Mantus (morganscloud.com)

And another good page from Peter Smith about Rocnas:
Rocna re-licensing & historical steel quality issues (petersmith.net.nz)

Now the question is, do you really want to do business with such a dubious company ?? Finally Steve of SV Penope anchor testing fame had a lot to say about the Rocna in terms of mud fouling reset failures etc, BUT first a reminder from Practical Sailor who were not impressed:

Anchor Tests: Bending More Shanks - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)
Bends and Breaks: Anchor Shank Strength - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)

More bad news from Steve of SV Penope:
Rocna Anchor Setting (33 lb). Video # 63 of an ongoing anchoring series. - YouTube

I could go on with links about every NG anchor, but the only ones that seem OK so far are the Spade and the Excel, if you ignore the cosmetic issues with the Spade and the fact there are so few Excels in use in comparison with other NG, (NG might stand for No Good ??), anchors that it's too early to know if they are a good copy of a Delta or not.

I'm very sorry that all of those links might put you off new generation anchors, and copies in particular, but when you read or look at all of those links, you might realise why I no longer own an NG anchor.

So finally a reminder, 2 anchors are better than one, and don't use stainless steel joiners or swivels. One iffy copy just resulted in a moored boat in Poole harbour breaking free and running aground. Unbranded anchor joiner used to join a loop of stainless chain together. Had a few beers with the owner last week, and along with a well know Sunseeker delivery skipper, we re educated him about just how bad cheap mostly Chinese stainless is. This article is about how a good marine parts company in Itlay treats their stainless parts after they are machined:
What Is the Annealing Treatment for Austenitic Steels? (inoxmare.com)

It's expensive to get rid of machining flaws that can seriously reduce fatigue life and shear strength, so cheap unbranded SS anchor shackles, joiners and swivels are just polished. Old timers like myself are not easily fooled by the shine, as in my case I've suffered the consequences of too many SS parts failures, all of them from bad copies or packet swap scams. Like anchors, the old technolgy is often best, as a galvanised anchor or rigging related part will rust well before it fails in shear, and fatigue failures of steel parts are rather rare.

 

[IanCC]

This is an usual thread in that the OP has raised questions on the value of 'technical' data, in this case surface area, but also because as the thread developed it became apparent that the OP was not questioning the lack of performance of his anchor but the fact it did not fit on his bow roller. Or it did fit but attacked the gel coat.

Its a bit late in the life of the thread, but I can be very slow despite my advocacy of a bit more lateral thinking in looking for solutions. - so my standard plea for pictures. I hate to see money being spent unnecessarily and if the anchor is acceptable, as an anchor (it holds) then maybe some pictures of the housed anchor might lead to suggesting as to how the anchor can be secured at sea without satisfying its need to gnaw at the stem.

I agree with the previous comments that a 14kg Kobra should be perfectly adequate for the yacht, 6.5t x 31.6 Nic, I'd actually suggest a 14kg Kobra a bit too big (which is maybe why the anchor does not house correctly). Before we went all aluminium and all lightweight we used a 15kg Excel (still have it gathering dust in my workshop) - 38' x 7t cat with the windage of a Bav 45. Prior to the Excel we had a Manson Plough (CQR clone) of around 20kg - it was a disaster - proving design is everything and weight is, well, just weight.

Ian - any chance of some pics of the anchor housed on the bow roller and the deck layout where the anchor joins the chain. My guess is the windlass is located well forward - but let us see and maybe we can solve the problem without the need for you to buy an expensive bit of steel (with a shorter shank). Now.... if you are miles from your yacht and have no pictures - maybe a few (thousand) words would allow you to describe the restrictions.


But I commend your initiating the thread in the face of heretic posters and the negativity by some to anchor threads. There should never be any fear in initiating any thread - that's what the forum is for, I condemn the worry about upsetting those who are bored with certain threads, whether its exhaust elbows or anchors. No-one needs to read threads they find boring - unless they are into self flagellation. I also commend you initiating the thread with a question on surface area.

Jonathan

Thanks for this post. Very much appreciated.

Gosh the thread has moved on. I have had my head in the bilges all day. However in light of all the positive comments about the Kobra, and seeing as the boat is on the hard, i thought i will take another look at it. Delayed head in bilges as well. And, with care, it fits!!!!
It just looks so small and could do with a bit of bar welding between its ears so it doesn't lie on its back.
Thanks all for input, really good.

 

[Neeves]

If you are thinking of buying a Manson of any type read this web site:
About the Manson Supreme Anchor (petersmith.net.nz)

To add a little flavour to the dull topics of inanimate anchors.

The story may be not be true, apocryphal but:

When Peter Smith developed Rocna, correction - copied Spade and made some alterations, he looked to monetise the design and approached Manson, the local NZ maker of many things for marine in steel, including anchors. To cut a long story short he showed Manson his design, Manson looked it over gave the 'design' back, turned down the opportunity to work with Smith and developed the Supreme. Manson have the ability to roll steel and used this facility to make their version of a concave fluke. Son of Peter, Craig, denigrated Manson and the Supreme from the word go. If the story is true I have some sympathy but being critical of Manson for copying is a bit steep, given Rocna is a copy of a Spade.

However - any comment by Peter Smith and his son are tinged with some human failings of annoyance and thus comments might be taken with a large pinch of salt.

The Supreme, as far as I am aware was tested by Lloyds and was the first leisure anchor awarded Super High Holding Power certification (double the hold of a Delta etc). Most subsequent tests used Supreme as the standard and it became standard practice to compare any new designs with the Supreme. In effect all more recent anchors had to be equal to or better than a Supreme. Next off the block was Rocna with RINA (which all became unstuck with the bendy shank saga). This latter grates with the holier than thou criticism of Supreme.

Of my assertion Rocna is a copy of a Spade.

Take plan view of a Spade and compare with a Rocna, identical. Take the shank, both are a copy of Delta (Spade took some French curves to the Delta shank and made it sexy with smooth curves). Look at the ballast of Spade and then check the toe of Rocna - the double thickness of the Rocna toe replaces Spade's lead but is not so focussed - and needs a roll bar (invented by Peter Bruce). Look at the skids under a Spade and then look at the identically designed skids of Rocna (not seen on any anchor till used by Spade). Look at the concavity of the top plate of Spade - Rocna is a direct copy made with flat plates of steel.

Peter Smith made it cheaper (or more profitable) to produce a reliable anchor but to criticise someone for copying (pot calling kettle black) - everyone does it - most anchors borrow - Spade (and Bruce) were probably the most innovative.

Because some people borrow without understanding the background, they are lazy (sounds like someone contributing to this thread) they make stupid mistakes. It is dangerous to copy without doing all the research. But this is a different story.

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

I would not pay any attention to the recommended weights and chain sizes, just fit the biggest anchor and chain you can fit on deck or on the bow, bearing in mind that it's one real good idea to have a secondary anchor rigged and ready, although that need not be mounted on the bow if you don't have twin rollers. The secondary can be clamped to the stanchions which is how some lifeboats secure their second anchor.

6mm chain is the minimum that willl fit on most manual or powered windlasses. My alloy lifeboat is very light, so 6mm is fine, but my secondary chain is only 5mm, as I was given that by a chap moving up to 6mm. 5mm chain is OK in chain stoppers and there are chain hooks that will fit 6 or 5mm chain. 8mm is a bit OTT for an 8 m boat. The Jimmy Green web site has some good anchors and advice about chain sizes.

It's not a bad idea to stick to one manufacturer when buying anchors or chain. The best appears to be Lewmar, as they make 2 types of CQR, the very popular and extentsively copied Delta, 2 types of Danforth, (Steel and alloy), the Claw, (Bruce), a Brittany, (Not a good version of a Danforth in me umble opinion), and the unproven Epsilon. So seven good old generation anchors and one new one. Alas no short scope deep water anchors yet. The Claw, (Bruce) will work in rocks and the Delta or CQR in weeds, so it's the deep water short scope anchors that are missing. Luke seem to be the best company for deep water/short rope rode anchors. This clip shows how easily their 3 piece is assembled: www.peluke.com - YouTube
Better than my fully folding Herry, which takes more time to rig and needs chains. It's a keeper though, so I'm going to modify it with a removable slide bar release, so no need for a trip line if it gets jammed in rocks or a wreck in particular.

Can't understand why Manson suggest anything to do with a CQR or Bruce, although I agree the old classic boats do need an older generation anchor, cos they were more solidly built, so weigh more, hence the need for a heavy anchor.

If you are thinking of buying a Manson of any type read this web site:
About the Manson Supreme Anchor (petersmith.net.nz)

“Can't understand why Manson suggest anything to do with a CQR or Bruce, although I agree the old classic boats do need an older generation anchor, cos they were more solidly built, so weigh more, hence the need for a heavy anchor.”
This shows a lack of understanding of how complex it is to determine or predict loads on anchors. Weight was once thought to be a major factor but it’s actually cross sectional area and wind resistance of the vessel that plays a bigger part. How can anyone trust what you write when you make such basic errors?

 

[Neeves]

Thanks for this post. Very much appreciated.

Gosh the thread has moved on. I have had my head in the bilges all day. However in light of all the positive comments about the Kobra, and seeing as the boat is on the hard, i thought i will take another look at it. Delayed head in bilges as well. And, with care, it fits!!!!
It just looks so small and could do with a bit of bar welding between its ears so it doesn't lie on its back.
Thanks all for input, really good.

Before you do any welding, let us know. If you add 'something' to an anchor, any anchor, you will alter its balance. The balance was carefully (or by luck) to allow the anchor to engage with the seabed and then set - it you add steel - the toe may not engage as well, or not at all.

I could describe a classic mistake - but will leave it to another day.

Jonathan

 

[TNLI]

Thanks for this post. Very much appreciated.

Gosh the thread has moved on. I have had my head in the bilges all day. However in light of all the positive comments about the Kobra, and seeing as the boat is on the hard, i thought i will take another look at it. Delayed head in bilges as well. And, with care, it fits!!!!
It just looks so small and could do with a bit of bar welding between its ears so it doesn't lie on its back.
Thanks all for input, really good.

The Kobra is made by Pastimo and it looks like another version of the Delta, BUT it's a hinged one according to the web site below:
Plastimo Kobra 2 Fixed Plastimo Kobra 2 Fixed Anchor | Force 4 Chandlery Anchor | Force 4 Chandlery

Hinged anchors are not as strong as solid ones, so you might want to consider welding the shank to the lower section. It seems to have been designed to fit in an anchor locker, although yours does fit well on the bow. The prices seem to vary but if you shop around it looks like you have saved 50 quid in comparison with a Lewmar Delta, but alas you will be getting what you pay for and I suspect that it will cost 50 quid to get a good chap to gas weld the shank so you don't risk a premature failure.
Oddly enough I'm going to weld the flukes of my folding copy of a Herresoff cos I don't like the idea of it depending on one small cheap locking pin, and the hinges. Easy job as spot welds will do. It will also prevent the hinges from rusting. What do you have for a secondary main, as Confutious says, best anchor should be one after waving goodbye to first anchors rode end. If you look at anchor performance in weight vs holding terms, the Spade and Fortress are the 2 top dogs, although it varies from one test to another, IF you are looking at weight vs performance.

Finally if you are thinking of buying a more solid plow, Steve has a real good clip of one he was given to test:
CQR Anchor Test. Anchor Video #78 - YouTube

 

[Tranona]

Also surprising, and somewhat contrary to my hypothesis about marketing, are Manson's chain size recommendations for my boat, they suggest 6mm to 8mm chain. Most traditionalists would have kittens at the idea of a 6mm chain on an 8m, 4 tonne boat. Even leaving that aside, the recommended juxtaposition of 6mm chain with a 35lb/16kg anchor does give one a start!

6mm is more than enough - I have a 10kg Epsilon and 6mm on a 9m 5 .3 tonne boat. The chain has breaking strain way in excess of any loads that could be applied by the boat and the holding power of the anchor. Chain strength is not a problem - the weak links are usually the connectors. The "heavy" chain comes from inferior chain in the past and from the extra weight that gives greater catenary that can be beneficial in reducing swinging room (and absorbing shock loads) in lower wind ranges. At around 25 knots of wind catenary disappears and the chain becomes straight so its only role is to connect the boat to the anchor.

On recommended sizes, Kobra is an outlier. The size bands are fairly consistent in the sorts of sizes (10,16,20kg) for boats in the 8-12m range. Where they tend to differ is in the way they treat the boundaries, some using displacement and others overlapping areas. Given the wide range and style of boats at any given length there is always an element of judgement about when it is wise to consider going up a size.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for this post. Very much appreciated.

Gosh the thread has moved on. I have had my head in the bilges all day. However in light of all the positive comments about the Kobra, and seeing as the boat is on the hard, i thought i will take another look at it. Delayed head in bilges as well. And, with care, it fits!!!!
It just looks so small and could do with a bit of bar welding between its ears so it doesn't lie on its back.
Thanks all for input, really good.

That looks absolutely fine to me. Why should physical size (in relation tot he boat?) be a consideration?. It is the size recommended by the maker - in fact your boat is at the lower end of the size range and it does the job.

It has been noted many times that the main thrust of anchor development has been to increase effectiveness for a given weight of anchor. Your Kobra has effectively twice the holding power of the CQR that would have come with the boat (as well as being easier and more reliable in setting)

 

[TNLI]

It has been noted many times that the main thrust of anchor development has been to increase effectiveness for a given weight of anchor. Your Kobra has effectively twice the holding power of the CQR that would have come with the boat (as well as being easier and more reliable in setting)

YEABUT! There is very little difference between the plows if you look at size in deck area terms vs performance. Obviously if you have a weight critical boat a lighter anchor is the way to go, but it also opens up a real can of worms in anchor strength terms. If you have a good windlass or pair of arms, what you need is the heviest anchor that will fit in a given area or in an existing anchor roller set up. The CQR and the Admiralty pattern fishermans and Luke Herry would top the weight vs deck area tables.

Umm try watching the SV Penope CQR clip, as the genuine CQR is very good in reset terms, although the Delta is slightly better, at the expense of final holding power. If you watch that clip, Steve point out he made an error in testing a copy of the CQR that resulted in him being rather negative about the CQR, BUT he sure changed his mind during the tests.

The main thrust of new generation anchor devlopment is to make lighter cheaper anchors that are in most cases modified copies of a classic, and as the spade has been around a while, it might be included with the classic old generation anchors, BUT cheap light anchors have proven to be no good in a storm, as they bend far too easily.

Some forum chaps with an Excel are not happy:
Plastimo Kobra II Anchor - Cruisers & Sailing Forums (cruisersforum.com)
PS: The pictures of the Kobra in that forum make me wonder why anyone would buy such a badly made weak Delta copy, probably the worst copy around. Time for a recycling bin me thinks.

 

[Neeves]

6mm is more than enough - I have a 10kg Epsilon and 6mm on a 9m 5 .3 tonne boat. The chain has breaking strain way in excess of any loads that could be applied by the boat and the holding power of the anchor. Chain strength is not a problem - the weak links are usually the connectors. The "heavy" chain comes from inferior chain in the past and from the extra weight that gives greater catenary that can be beneficial in reducing swinging room (and absorbing shock loads) in lower wind ranges. At around 25 knots of wind catenary disappears and the chain becomes straight so its only role is to connect the boat to the anchor.

On recommended sizes, Kobra is an outlier. The size bands are fairly consistent in the sorts of sizes (10,16,20kg) for boats in the 8-12m range. Where they tend to differ is in the way they treat the boundaries, some using displacement and others overlapping areas. Given the wide range and style of boats at any given length there is always an element of judgement about when it is wise to consider going up a size.

The big problem with down sizing chain is a really simple issue but very difficult to solve.

If you down size to 6mm from 8mm, saves weight, smaller windlass, less power needed, smaller cables, more room in the locker, towering becomes less of an issue. The the 6mm is strong enough (unless you are very silly) and/or you can opt for a HT grade - but how to join chain to anchor?

The anchor you need is still the same size as you would have used for 8mm and typically that shackle would be a 3/8th" Grade B (WLL of 2t, UTS of 10t or 12t, depends on supplier - Crosby, Peerless, Campbell - Peerless call them G80 shackles). But that 3/8th" shackle will not fit the 6mm chain - the hole in the 6mm link is simply too small for the 3/8th" shackle pin.

All of these companies are American and buying Peerless or Campbell shackles is 'difficult' or impossible. Crosby do sell in Europe (we in Oz - buy Crosby shackles from Tecni in the UK) but the smallest Grade B shackle that Crosby make is the 3/8th" (no different to Campbell). Peerless make small shackles but do not market in Europe.

Lateral Thinking

The answer we resorted to was to look to the lifting industry and you can source 'large links', various names and designs, Pear links, Omega links, Hammerlocks, that will fit 6mm chain. You can easily buy G80 or G100 devices (and exceptionally G120). These then become a large link at the end of your 6mm chain to which you can attach your 3/8th" shackle. These devices are not supplied galvanised - so buy 2 or 4, use them until the rust annoys you, chop them off and add one of your spares. They cost peanuts. I have our attachments galvanised and if you are 'nice' to your galvaniser - he might do the same (they are a bit fiddly for him to work with). If you are going to galvanise use G100 units - the galvanising reduces strength by about 30%.

If you have downsized from 10mm to 8mm its easier as you can use a standard 8mm Grade B shackle (as long as it fits your anchor but then you could use a 1/2" and 3/8th" shackle) - but it is not quite as neat.

These are a cross section of attachments from different suppliers and for different size of chain



I strip the paint off and the units are then grit blaster as part of the galvanising process/



These are galvanised units



And when installed the assembly looks like this: Excel anchor shank, painted yellow, with a Campbell 3/8th" x 2t (WLL) Orange Pin shackle and a 6mm Omega link and our 6mm HT chain rode. I custom made the Boomerang from BIS 80 steel (same as the anchor shank) to accept 6mm Omega links


The objective is to make the chain the weak link - everything else is stronger. The 6mm HT chain is also stronger than the G30 x 8mm chain it replaces. Another focus is to make the rode more skinny. The thinner the rode (as long as you do not sacrifice strength) allows the anchor to set more deeply (hence more securely). Shear strength of the seabed increases with the square of depth. Anchors like a CQR, and clones, have a robust shank but it so beefy it restricts the ability of the anchor to dive. Hence the use of thin HT steel for the shanks of modern anchors. If you anchor completely buries then it will also bury chain and buried chain offers, up to a point, resistance to veering.

The rode: anchor, shackles and other connections, snubber, boomerang, chain to snubber attachment device should be considered as one unit with all the pieces being of similar strength and each chosen to enhance the performance of the whole. Go into a chandler and suggest you are buying G70 chain - and they will have no idea of connectors - but very enthusiastic to sell you the chain (leaving you alone to find shackles etc etc that match for strength).

No wonder G70 chain is not really acceptable.

Jonathan

 

[LittleSister]

The big problem with down sizing chain is a really simple issue but very difficult to solve.

If you down size to 6mm from 8mm, saves weight, smaller windlass, less power needed, smaller cables, more room in the locker, towering becomes less of an issue. The the 6mm is strong enough (unless you are very silly) and/or you can opt for a HT grade - but how to join chain to anchor?

The anchor you need is still the same size as you would have used for 8mm and typically that shackle would be a 3/8th" Grade B (WLL of 2t, UTS of 10t or 12t, depends on supplier - Crosby, Peerless, Campbell - Peerless call them G80 shackles). But that 3/8th" shackle will not fit the 6mm chain - the hole in the 6mm link is simply too small for the 3/8th" shackle pin.

All of these companies are American and buying Peerless or Campbell shackles is 'difficult' or impossible. Crosby do sell in Europe (we in Oz - buy Crosby shackles from Tecni in the UK) but the smallest Grade B shackle that Crosby make is the 3/8th" (no different to Campbell). Peerless make small shackles but do not market in Europe.

Lateral Thinking

The answer we resorted to was to look to the lifting industry and you can source 'large links', various names and designs, Pear links, Omega links, Hammerlocks, that will fit 6mm chain. You can easily buy G80 or G100 devices (and exceptionally G120). These then become a large link at the end of your 6mm chain to which you can attach your 3/8th" shackle. These devices are not supplied galvanised - so buy 2 or 4, use them until the rust annoys you, chop them off and add one of your spares. They cost peanuts. I have our attachments galvanised and if you are 'nice' to your galvaniser - he might do the same (they are a bit fiddly for him to work with). If you are going to galvanise use G100 units - the galvanising reduces strength by about 30%.

If you have downsized from 10mm to 8mm its easier as you can use a standard 8mm Grade B shackle (as long as it fits your anchor but then you could use a 1/2" and 3/8th" shackle) - but it is not quite as neat.

These are a cross section of attachments from different suppliers and for different size of chain

View attachment 151556

I strip the paint off and the units are then grit blaster as part of the galvanising process/

View attachment 151557

These are galvanised units

View attachment 151558View attachment 151559

And when installed the assembly looks like this: Excel anchor shank, painted yellow, with a Campbell 3/8th" x 2t (WLL) Orange Pin shackle and a 6mm Omega link and our 6mm HT chain rode. I custom made the Boomerang from BIS 80 steel (same as the anchor shank) to accept 6mm Omega links
View attachment 151560

The objective is to make the chain the weak link - everything else is stronger. The 6mm HT chain is also stronger than the G30 x 8mm chain it replaces. Another focus is to make the rode more skinny. The thinner the rode (as long as you do not sacrifice strength) allows the anchor to set more deeply (hence more securely). Shear strength of the seabed increases with the square of depth. Anchors like a CQR, and clones, have a robust shank but it so beefy it restricts the ability of the anchor to dive. Hence the use of thin HT steel for the shanks of modern anchors. If you anchor completely buries then it will also bury chain and buried chain offers, up to a point, resistance to veering.

The rode: anchor, shackles and other connections, snubber, boomerang, chain to snubber attachment device should be considered as one unit with all the pieces being of similar strength and each chosen to enhance the performance of the whole. Go into a chandler and suggest you are buying G70 chain - and they will have no idea of connectors - but very enthusiastic to sell you the chain (leaving you alone to find shackles etc etc that match for strength).

No wonder G70 chain is not really acceptable.

Jonathan

Interesting.

Among thoughts it's provoked in me are -

If you are making your own 'boomerang', then why not design this to provide the transition between a larger (e.g. 8mm) chain more easily connected to the anchor, and the smaller (e.g. 6mm) chain connected to the boat. The amount by which the thicker chain hinders deep setting of the anchor shank is perhaps little different from that resulting from the additional lumpy shackle required to connect a thinner chain to the anchor.

Alternatively, perhaps there is some way of connecting the boomerang to the anchor by wire (spliced to hard thimbles?), burying more easily and avoiding lumpen shackles. Because of wear and potential vulnerability to damage, this would be a regularly inspected/replaced component, not expected to last as long as chain or anchor.

Using shackles (especially a single one) to provide the articulation between anchor's orientation and the chain's seems less than ideal. Apart from some more sophisticated sort of universal joint. I wonder whether there is some (potential) sort of specialised, spine-like chain between anchor and boomerang, or anchor and standard chain, with limited articulation at each pair of links. My inclination is to think that this would distribute and divide the 'turning' stresses evenly between the links in that section of chain, but it's late and I'm too tired to be able to think it through to confirm or reject that supposition.

 

[TNLI]

The big problem with down sizing chain is a really simple issue but very difficult to solve.

If you down size to 6mm from 8mm, saves weight, smaller windlass, less power needed, smaller cables, more room in the locker, towering becomes less of an issue. The the 6mm is strong enough (unless you are very silly) and/or you can opt for a HT grade - but how to join chain to anchor?

The anchor you need is still the same size as you would have used for 8mm and typically that shackle would be a 3/8th" Grade B (WLL of 2t, UTS of 10t or 12t, depends on supplier - Crosby, Peerless, Campbell - Peerless call them G80 shackles). But that 3/8th" shackle will not fit the 6mm chain - the hole in the 6mm link is simply too small for the 3/8th" shackle pin.

All of these companies are American and buying Peerless or Campbell shackles is 'difficult' or impossible. Crosby do sell in Europe (we in Oz - buy Crosby shackles from Tecni in the UK) but the smallest Grade B shackle that Crosby make is the 3/8th" (no different to Campbell). Peerless make small shackles but do not market in Europe.

Lateral Thinking

The answer we resorted to was to look to the lifting industry and you can source 'large links', various names and designs, Pear links, Omega links, Hammerlocks, that will fit 6mm chain. You can easily buy G80 or G100 devices (and exceptionally G120). These then become a large link at the end of your 6mm chain to which you can attach your 3/8th" shackle. These devices are not supplied galvanised - so buy 2 or 4, use them until the rust annoys you, chop them off and add one of your spares. They cost peanuts. I have our attachments galvanised and if you are 'nice' to your galvaniser - he might do the same (they are a bit fiddly for him to work with). If you are going to galvanise use G100 units - the galvanising reduces strength by about 30%.

If you have downsized from 10mm to 8mm its easier as you can use a standard 8mm Grade B shackle (as long as it fits your anchor but then you could use a 1/2" and 3/8th" shackle) - but it is not quite as neat.

These are a cross section of attachments from different suppliers and for different size of chain

View attachment 151556

I strip the paint off and the units are then grit blaster as part of the galvanising process/

View attachment 151557

These are galvanised units

View attachment 151558View attachment 151559

And when installed the assembly looks like this: Excel anchor shank, painted yellow, with a Campbell 3/8th" x 2t (WLL) Orange Pin shackle and a 6mm Omega link and our 6mm HT chain rode. I custom made the Boomerang from BIS 80 steel (same as the anchor shank) to accept 6mm Omega links
View attachment 151560

The objective is to make the chain the weak link - everything else is stronger. The 6mm HT chain is also stronger than the G30 x 8mm chain it replaces. Another focus is to make the rode more skinny. The thinner the rode (as long as you do not sacrifice strength) allows the anchor to set more deeply (hence more securely). Shear strength of the seabed increases with the square of depth. Anchors like a CQR, and clones, have a robust shank but it so beefy it restricts the ability of the anchor to dive. Hence the use of thin HT steel for the shanks of modern anchors. If you anchor completely buries then it will also bury chain and buried chain offers, up to a point, resistance to veering.

The rode: anchor, shackles and other connections, snubber, boomerang, chain to snubber attachment device should be considered as one unit with all the pieces being of similar strength and each chosen to enhance the performance of the whole. Go into a chandler and suggest you are buying G70 chain - and they will have no idea of connectors - but very enthusiastic to sell you the chain (leaving you alone to find shackles etc etc that match for strength).

No wonder G70 chain is not really acceptable.

Jonathan

UMM, err, the jury is out about the effect of galvanising on steel strength, as you will find as many articles aying it does not effect strength as you will find it does.

I would stick to using galvanised shackles or connectors, cos it avoids the pin rusting and making it necessary to cut it off.

The good books say thicker chain helps the anchor function, as thinner chain results in less drag. The effect on the ability of the anchor to dive is minimal in comparison with the extra weight holding the chain and shank down in a gust or big wave.

The shank of a CQR is rounded, whereas some other anchors have rectangular cross section shanks, and a rectangular object has more resistance, so will not bury itself so easily, although that does not occur unless the heavier 8mm chain keeps the shank as flat as possible.

Not so sure that the cheaper modern anchors use HT steel, (I'm sure they all say they do), as most companies will use the cheapest steel available and in some cases like my beloved modified folding Herry, recycled cast Iron that is very bad news in rust terms if it's not properly galvanised. The surface finish was terrible, so after I weld it, I will get it powder coated along with my small bar type fishermans. I get a real steal of a deal for powder coating, because the owner of the company thinks I'm nuts, but do have to weait until there is some left over paint.

Like the pictures of the anchor connectors.

One odd thing in the anchor tests on the CQR, was that Steve demonstrated it will set in mud with only a 2.5 to 1 chain rode. I always associate the CQR with needing at least 3 or 4 to one, but that might be quoted cos an anchor might need more scope in sand.

Still looking for a used Yachtsman, (It's another name for a Herreshoff), anchor. This old boy knows something about anchors:
VIDEO: How to Anchor a Boat, Part 1: Anchoring a Small Powerboat (offcenterharbor.com)

VIDEO: Anchoring a Boat — What's the Best Boat Anchor? Danforth vs. a Yachtsman Anchor (offcenterharbor.com)

VIDEO: Anchoring a Boat, Part 3 — Creative Solutions with a Traditional Anchor (offcenterharbor.com)

The yacht the last chap is sailing is a classic wooden Herreshoff, and it lacks stanchions which is nuts. You can buy some very nice hinged base stainless or solid steel stanchions that were used by the USCG 36500 series boats, cos they can get in the way of survivors jumping aboard. I suppose if you rig a deck safety line and clip on it's OK.

 

[Neeves]

Interesting.

Among thoughts it's provoked in me are -

If you are making your own 'boomerang', then why not design this to provide the transition between a larger (e.g. 8mm) chain more easily connected to the anchor, and the smaller (e.g. 6mm) chain connected to the boat. The amount by which the thicker chain hinders deep setting of the anchor shank is perhaps little different from that resulting from the additional lumpy shackle required to connect a thinner chain to the anchor.

Alternatively, perhaps there is some way of connecting the boomerang to the anchor by wire (spliced to hard thimbles?), burying more easily and avoiding lumpen shackles. Because of wear and potential vulnerability to damage, this would be a regularly inspected/replaced component, not expected to last as long as chain or anchor.

Using shackles (especially a single one) to provide the articulation between anchor's orientation and the chain's seems less than ideal. Apart from some more sophisticated sort of universal joint. I wonder whether there is some (potential) sort of specialised, spine-like chain between anchor and boomerang, or anchor and standard chain, with limited articulation at each pair of links. My inclination is to think that this would distribute and divide the 'turning' stresses evenly between the links in that section of chain, but it's late and I'm too tired to be able to think it through to confirm or reject that supposition.

Sincere thanks - the forum works!

What a thought provoking post!! . I lack your, different. focus.

But I have, short term, similar issues. I'm sailing back from Suva (Fiji) to Sydney) and have other diversions.

But I'm not completely lacking in imagination


I thought to dispense with shackles completely and came up with this idea, photo below.

Based on a Boomerang but built from interlocking plates of HT steel. It all fits together but its not as strong as the chain it replaces. Assembly require patience, tolerances are tight, and its not something many would be prepared to do - but if one were to buy a complete and matching rode its something a chandler could do, as he does a splice. The chain, in common with G30 chain, is well above spec - but I'm not going to recommend something that is not 'better' and I cannot source better steel.. Thin HT steel plate is like hen's teeth, limited market, difficult to produce.

Unless I can develop some way of strengthening the opening and keep it within the confines of the chain dimensions.

The very small holes in the individual plates allow the whole when assembled to be simply secured with little Alan keyed bolts tapped into the plates and the whole galvanised.

So I'm open to daft ideas, like the one in my images - I don't yet have an answer.

I confess its not a priority, mainly as I do not have an answer (nor the imagination to think of anything else) - but maybe someone will make mention, like Little Sister, and .....???

Jonathan

UMM, err, the jury is out about the effect of galvanising on steel strength, as you will find as many articles aying it does not effect strength as you will find it does.

I would stick to using galvanised shackles or connectors, cos it avoids the pin rusting and making it necessary to cut it off.

The good books say thicker chain helps the anchor function, as thinner chain results in less drag. The effect on the ability of the anchor to dive is minimal in comparison with the extra weight holding the chain and shank down in a gust or big wave.

The shank of a CQR is rounded, whereas some other anchors have rectangular cross section shanks, and a rectangular object has more resistance, so will not bury itelf so easily, although that does not occur unless the heavier 8mm chain keeps the shank as flat as possible.

Not so sure that the cheaper modern anchors use HT steel, (I'm sure they all say they do), as most companies will use the cheapest steel available and in some cases like my beloved modified folding Herry, recycled cast Iron that is very bad news in rust terms if it's not properly galvanised. The surface finish was terrible, so after I weld it, I will get it powder coated along with my small bar type fishermans. I get a real steal of a deal for powder coating, because the owner of the company thinks I'm nuts, but do have to weait until there is some left over paint.

Like the pictures of the anchor connectors.

One odd thing in the anchor tests on the CQR, was that Steve demonstrated it will set in mud with only a 2.5 to 1 chain rode. I always associate the CQR with needing at least 3 or 4 to one, but that might be quoted cos an anchor might need more scope in sand.

Still looking for a used Yachtsman, (It's another name for a Herreshoff), anchor. This old boy knows something about Danforths:
VIDEO: Anchoring a Boat — What's the Best Boat Anchor? Danforth vs. a Yachtsman Anchor (offcenterharbor.com)

As usual you lack the expertise and have not done the research.

HT steels have their strength degraded unless you temper in the same way the original steel was tempered. the scheduling and timing to Q&T are closely guarded secrets. Ones chance of achieve a strength similar to that of the original Q&T steels after the crude heating/cooling processes of commercial galvanising are....nil. Join the real world.

I've been working on galvanising of Q&T steels as a gifted amateur for 10 years now. I test every production run - I have no answers.

Thicker, heavier, chain may have helped a CQR to function, though I doubt it, modern anchors - it makes no difference. I suspect your 'good book' s well out of date. Modern anchors engage and set well without the rest of the rode being on the seabed. I know - I've tested tension angles.

Oil rig anchors use thin rodes for just this reason - thin rode, less impediment to diving. Nothing new here - Danforths were supplied with wire rodes, short strops - for just this reason. Short strops were not approved by Classification Societies, unpredictable failures. Poor swages, corrosion.....

Shank profile has little or no influence on performance - the critical dimension is maximum shank thickness. I have the independent data from a location focussed on anchor development, University at Houston, amongst others. There is a good reason shanks are now thin.

A CQR in thin mud is a drag waiting to happen. If you anchor in thin mud - use a Fortress, or Danforth ( in very thin mud, oversized) or move.

Most people, which is the bulk of the market for anchors, don't anchor in mud - the kids, rightly do not like it. Those who must anchor in mud - usually know their stuff, TNLI - you are an exception - use a Fortress. The US Navy did the earlier tests - if you think you know better - please argue with them and send us the correspondence.

TNLI said:

"I get a real steal of a deal for powder coating, because the owner of the company thinks I'm nuts, but do have to weait until there is some left over paint".

Your powder coating company is not unique in his thoughts - but most here are realists and markedly less generous.

Pwder coating lasts a bit longer than paint but lasts as long as a blink of the eye vs galvanising. Which is why galvanising is specified for bolts (studs) set in concrete to hold up wind farm towers - not powder coated steel.

Jonathan

 

[TNLI]

Oil rigs have to anchor in some very serious currents, so they use thinner chains and some rather odd new versions of the Bruce.

No one has changed the good book about a heavy chain helping to hold the anchors shank down.

The reason modern anchors have thin shanks is just cost, although the better NG anchors like the Spade do have fairly thick shanks on a par with the Delta.

You need to watch Steves SV Penope results for the genuine CQR, and live in the real world of anchoring in soft mud that is fairly common in good anchorages. The bruce lovers all said they disliked the way a CQR would head for the center of the earth if you keep pulling on it, and as I found out on quite a number of occasions that it is a devil of a job to get a CQR to trip after just a strong trade wind and associated chop. The Bruce fans all thought that was one big disadvantage. The Bruce and the CQR work very well together, although not as well if you need to anchor in deep water, or use an all rope rode.

The Yachtsman anchor I'm going to get powder coated is already galvanised, it's just rather poor in terms of all important surface preparation. It's better than nothing and will cost me about a tenner per anchor, whereas sending a small anchor to Cardiff and back will cost about 30 quid, plus another 50 pound minimum charge for the hot dipping. That's more than I paid for them in the first place.

The hat I wear when I go out in lifeboat lated business or social events has TNLI on it, which stands for Trev's Nautical Lunatic's Institute, which is also my registered charity.

The Fortress anchors that I have seen on USCG RIB's are not kit built, and they use a rope rode rather than chain as steel chain is too heavy for a RIB.

I do use a steel Danforth on odd occasions as a secondary, but they are no good in weeds or debris as they jam open and when the wind or current does a 180, the anchor often flips over, and then fails to reset.

I've stated before that if you ignore the inherent weakness of the Fortress design, and the weeds and debris jam issues, they will out perform any NG or OG anchor in weight vs holding terms, BUT not in deck area vs holding power terms, where you will find they are just average. Same goes for the Lewmar alloy Danforth, although they might have lernt a few lessons from the Fortress kit failures.
There is one anchor that is better than a Fortress in mud or sand, and that is the Bulwagga. Top of the tables AND has a transferable lifetime warranty that includes bends, which seem to be excluded by all of the other Danforth related warranties.

Bulwagga Anchor - When you really need to be sure!

Bulwagga Anchor - When you really need to be sure! (Seems to be fully certified by all, even the ABS)

Yep, it's on my must have list, if I can find a good used one in Blighty.

Bruce would turn in his grave at the pic below, as they call it a Bruce, looks more like a double Spade). Mostly for oil rigs.

 

[Arcady]

.

Anyone that drags 100m has not undersood what I keep harping on about, 2 ANCHORS ARE BETTER THAN ONE !! All it takes is one tin can on a point to ruin your whole day if you think one anchor in more than a light breeze or current is a safe way to anchor. I often just lower my secondary right below the boat and keep the rode on deck. The secondary does need to be a fast setter, not a plow, so Danforth or fishermans of some type, including Don Streets and my favoutite, the Herresshofd developed in the the late 1800's. OG's, (Old Generation). LONG LIVE THE OLD GENERATION ANCHORS!

Anchor Reset Tests - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)

Your preference to lie to two anchors when most of us are happy to trust to just one surely speaks volumes about the reliability of NG anchors compared to designs of (several) centuries ago??? Your anchoring strategy belies the truth.

 

[TNLI]

Your preference to lie to two anchors when most of us are happy to trust to just one surely speaks volumes about the reliability of NG anchors compared to designs of (several) centuries ago??? Your anchoring strategy belies the truth.

Storm tactics at anchor: Surviving gales in Scilly - Yachting Monthly

The author used 2 anchors and a kellet on a rope rode. I've looked at the pictures of the anchored boats that dragged, and guess what, they were only had one anchor in use. Most of the serious crusing boats deploy 2 anchors of different types in bad conditions, often a CQR or Delta and a Danforth of some type. The main reason they dragged was too much weed collected during a series of big wind shifts. Even a CQR or Delta will fail if you get it truly buried into too much heavy weed.
A Herreshoff and a Bulwagga would work well as a pair on different rodes. The Bulwagga was better than the Herreshoff and the Fortress, so I will sell my new Force 4 Danforth if I can find a good one. Like a bronze Herreshoff, it seems to be mission impossible.

 

[vyv_cox]

UMM, err, the jury is out about the effect of galvanising on steel strength, as you will find as many articles aying it does not effect strength as you will find it does.

I would stick to using galvanised shackles or connectors, cos it avoids the pin rusting and making it necessary to cut it off.

The good books say thicker chain helps the anchor function, as thinner chain results in less drag. The effect on the ability of the anchor to dive is minimal in comparison with the extra weight holding the chain and shank down in a gust or big wave.

The shank of a CQR is rounded, whereas some other anchors have rectangular cross section shanks, and a rectangular object has more resistance, so will not bury itself so easily, although that does not occur unless the heavier 8mm chain keeps the shank as flat as possible.

Not so sure that the cheaper modern anchors use HT steel, (I'm sure they all say they do), as most companies will use the cheapest steel available and in some cases like my beloved modified folding Herry, recycled cast Iron that is very bad news in rust terms if it's not properly galvanised. The surface finish was terrible, so after I weld it, I will get it powder coated along with my small bar type fishermans. I get a real steal of a deal for powder coating, because the owner of the company thinks I'm nuts, but do have to weait until there is some left over paint.

Like the pictures of the anchor connectors.

One odd thing in the anchor tests on the CQR, was that Steve demonstrated it will set in mud with only a 2.5 to 1 chain rode. I always associate the CQR with needing at least 3 or 4 to one, but that might be quoted cos an anchor might need more scope in sand.

Still looking for a used Yachtsman, (It's another name for a Herreshoff), anchor. This old boy knows something about anchors:
VIDEO: How to Anchor a Boat, Part 1: Anchoring a Small Powerboat (offcenterharbor.com)

VIDEO: Anchoring a Boat — What's the Best Boat Anchor? Danforth vs. a Yachtsman Anchor (offcenterharbor.com)

VIDEO: Anchoring a Boat, Part 3 — Creative Solutions with a Traditional Anchor (offcenterharbor.com)

The yacht the last chap is sailing is a classic wooden Herreshoff, and it lacks stanchions which is nuts. You can buy some very nice hinged base stainless or solid steel stanchions that were used by the USCG 36500 series boats, cos they can get in the way of survivors jumping aboard. I suppose if you rig a deck safety line and clip on it's OK.

Once again your spoutings on metallurgical topics serve only to prove that you know nothing about it. Jonathan has demolished your statement about galvanising v tempering temperatures but your 'recycled iron' statement is equally ridiculous.

I worked at a steel works producing high quality engineering steels in electric furnaces. 100% of the input was recycled, ranging from offcuts from body press shops to what was known as 'gypsy scrap'. About 2 tonnes per batch of 40 tonnes was from ancient slag heaps from which the iron had not been fully extracted using the technology of the day. The steel produced from this very mixed source was top quality alloy steel.

Recycled iron would be produced in cupola furnaces, small devices that are today increasingly rare. A most unlikely source for any anchor. The vast majority of cast iron comes from blast furnaces, as it has for hundreds of years.

 

[TNLI]

Once again your spoutings on metallurgical topics serve only to prove that you know nothing about it. Jonathan has demolished your statement about galvanising v tempering temperatures but your 'recycled iron' statement is equally ridiculous.

I worked at a steel works producing high quality engineering steels in electric furnaces. 100% of the input was recycled, ranging from offcuts from body press shops to what was known as 'gypsy scrap'. About 2 tonnes per batch of 40 tonnes was from ancient slag heaps from which the iron had not been fully extracted using the technology of the day. The steel produced from this very mixed source was top quality alloy steel.

Recycled iron would be produced in cupola furnaces, small devices that are today increasingly rare. A most unlikely source for any anchor. The vast majority of cast iron comes from blast furnaces, as it has for hundreds of years.

Once again you are not reading my posts, look in Google and you will find plenty of alternative opinions that dispute the claim about it damaging the steel.

Alas you did not work in a Chinese steel works, as they do not do anything like the processes your employer did and produce some real bad cast iron. Where did I say Iron comes from cupola furnaces, you are replying without even reading one sentence of my posts.

The 4 Types of Cast Iron | OneMonroe (monroeengineering.com)

I'm sure my Herreshoff copy was made from the cheapest version, and not finished apart from one single dip into a Zinc tank, (I think it's supposed to be 3 dips).
Now try reading this study: specManual_08_Final_01.indd (steel.org.au) LAST PAGE:

RESULTS Tables 1 and 2 show the results of the testing. If the results of the yield strengths of the black sections and the results for the galvanized sections of the HA70T-P are averaged, the difference is 0.4%. As this variation is less than 1% it is considered to be within the accuracy tolerance of the testing procedure. If the results of the yield strengths of the black sections and the results for the galvanized sections of the Galvaspan G450 are averaged, the difference is 0.6%. As this variation is less than 1% it is considered to be within the accuracy tolerance of the testing procedure. Both of these tests have verifi ed that hot dip galvanizing of either un-coated high strength steel or the hot dip galvanizing of pre-galvanized high strength steel after acid stripping of the original coating has no effect on the structural strength of the steels involved. NOTE A subsequent comprehensive test program was undertaken by Industrial Galvanizers in partnership with OneSteel to evaluate the effect of hot dip galvanizing on 500N Grade reinforcing bar in 2007. The results of these tests are reported in Section XX of the Specifi ers Manual, and support the fi ndings of the testing detailed above, in that hot dip galvanizing does not affect the mechanical properties of standard grades of steel

There are a lot of other results to articles saying galvanising has no or very little effect, just look at Googles first page. It seems to depend on the type of steel involved, so the jury is out on the effect because I did not find very cheap steel or cast Iron listed.

This is my bad copy of a Herreshoff from Fleabay, I complained about the finish and sent pics of the rusty chain, so they sent me a partial refund of 30 quid !!
Galvanized Fishermans anchor | eBay

The wonderfull drop dead gorgeous bronze CQR is made in England, BUT is still classed as an original genuine CQR. Don Street would have loved both anchors, although I do need to finish the Herreshoff copy.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Oil rigs have to anchor in some very serious currents, so they use thinner chains and some rather odd new versions of the Bruce.

No one has changed the good book about a heavy chain helping to hold the anchors shank down.

The reason modern anchors have thin shanks is just cost, although the better NG anchors like the Spade do have fairly thick shanks on a par with the Delta.

You need to watch Steves SV Penope results for the genuine CQR, and live in the real world of anchoring in soft mud that is fairly common in good anchorages. The bruce lovers all said they disliked the way a CQR would head for the center of the earth if you keep pulling on it, and as I found out on quite a number of occasions that it is a devil of a job to get a CQR to trip after just a strong trade wind and associated chop. The Bruce fans all thought that was one big disadvantage. The Bruce and the CQR work very well together, although not as well if you need to anchor in deep water, or use an all rope rode.

The Yachtsman anchor I'm going to get powder coated is already galvanised, it's just rather poor in terms of all important surface preparation. It's better than nothing and will cost me about a tenner per anchor, whereas sending a small anchor to Cardiff and back will cost about 30 quid, plus another 50 pound minimum charge for the hot dipping. That's more than I paid for them in the first place.

The hat I wear when I go out in lifeboat lated business or social events has TNLI on it, which stands for Trev's Nautical Lunatic's Institute, which is also my registered charity.

The Fortress anchors that I have seen on USCG RIB's are not kit built, and they use a rope rode rather than chain as steel chain is too heavy for a RIB.

I do use a steel Danforth on odd occasions as a secondary, but they are no good in weeds or debris as they jam open and when the wind or current does a 180, the anchor often flips over, and then fails to reset.

I've stated before that if you ignore the inherent weakness of the Fortress design, and the weeds and debris jam issues, they will out perform any NG or OG anchor in weight vs holding terms, BUT not in deck area vs holding power terms, where you will find they are just average. Same goes for the Lewmar alloy Danforth, although they might have lernt a few lessons from the Fortress kit failures.
There is one anchor that is better than a Fortress in mud or sand, and that is the Bulwagga. Top of the tables AND has a transferable lifetime warranty that includes bends, which seem to be excluded by all of the other Danforth related warranties.

Bulwagga Anchor - When you really need to be sure!

Bulwagga Anchor - When you really need to be sure! (Seems to be fully certified by all, even the ABS)

Yep, it's on my must have list, if I can find a good used one in Blighty.

Bruce would turn in his grave at the pic below, as they call it a Bruce, looks more like a double Spade). Mostly for oil rigs.

oil rigs anchor in serious currents therefore… more drivel. More nonsense.
What’s a ‘kit built’ Fortress anchor? More made up disinformation. The ones the USCG use are standard off the shelf ones.

Storm tactics at anchor: Surviving gales in Scilly - Yachting Monthly

The author used 2 anchors and a kellet on a rope rode. I've looked at the pictures of the anchored boats that dragged, and guess what, they were only had one anchor in use. Most of the serious crusing boats deploy 2 anchors of different types in bad conditions, often a CQR or Delta and a Danforth of some type. The main reason they dragged was too much weed collected during a series of big wind shifts. Even a CQR or Delta will fail if you get it truly buried into too much heavy weed.
A Herreshoff and a Bulwagga would work well as a pair on different rodes. The Bulwagga was better than the Herreshoff and the Fortress, so I will sell my new Force 4 Danforth if I can find a good one. Like a bronze Herreshoff, it seems to be mission impossible.

You didn’t really read that article did you…
The author put the second anchor out to try and stop his boat swinging over rubble before it took the ground. He was amazed/surprised it held.
Here’s an interesting quote from the article:
“Elsewhere, at least one of the yachts that dragged in deep water had her CQR on about 100 metres of chain but that did her no good.’

Kellets or chums or anchor angels used to be thought of as really helpful. I used to believe it myself. In fact they’re useless (worse perhaps as they take up storage space and add weight to your boat for no purpose. ) Anchor rodes that have been dived on in heavy weather have been shown to have no useful catenary. The chum makes no difference as far as catenary or snatching in a gale.
The same research applies to heavy chain vs light chain. For small craft it makes no difference regarding catenary or snatching in storm conditions. (We’re not talking about ships here as their anchoring systems work in very different ways). So your statement about the book not changing regarding heavy chain is also false. What was once thought to be obvious and common sense about chain rodes simply isn’t true.

The serious cruising boats I see and know use a NG anchor (NOT a CQR!) and only deploy two anchors if a storm is forecast. It’s what I do.

And if you’re interested we use a Spade on 100 metres of chain with a Kong stainless (shock horror) swivel and our second anchor is a large Fortress on a chain/rope rode of about 60 metres, but we’ve another 100 metres or more of nylon line to add to either ride if necessary.