Anchors

[LittleSister]

Proper research isn’t ‘looking things up on the www’.

I know.

I learnt that from the internet!

 

[boomerangben]

Which article about kellets for rope rodes, as the others are about kellets for chain, which does not work ?? Lots of different articles and opinions.

Practical sailor again: Assessing the Anchor Kellet - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)

Kellets On the Rode - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)

That last article and the cost of the kellet have me convinced that if I need to anchor in a defined area with a short scope it's better to just use 2 anchors set 180n degrees apart and led to the bow, or to buy a bigger short scope anchor. A Spade or Bruce will work with 3 to 1 chain, but the real star I'm sorry to say is the Herreshoff, as it will work with a 2 to 1 rope rode. If the holding is rocks or coral, a grapnel will work and cost less than a heavy bronze kellet. They are interesting but not really worth the trouble of buying a big one, or making one. I suppose if you only use rope rodes and a 10 to 1 scope there is a case for attaching a real heavy one, like a big bag of bricks, but what you are doing in effect is making a mooring.

I think we can agree that kellets struggle to earn their place on a cruising yacht.

I don’t doubt your claims on the 2:1 rope rode capability on the Herreshoff. I cannot foresee the scenario when I would need such an anchor and I wonder how many of the far more experienced sailors here than I, share your need to cover that scenario. If I had a beautiful Herreshoff (or same generation) varnish bucket drainer, I too might (for the sake of authenticity) be in the market for a bronze folding Herreshoff anchor. I would also have a new gen on hand too. Why? because as the Wooden Boat article you have referenced more than once says, the Herreshoff was good in its day. Remember it was designed when the Kittyhawk was a bundle of sticks and a pile of bed linen in the back of the Wright Brothers shed and the only mammals that flew were bats. I think even you would be pretty miffed if your next plane ride was in a string bag with castor oil refreshments. I accept your risk assessment for your vessels demands an anchor that works with a 2:1 scope and the Herreshoff is the only anchor that meets that need. Mine doesn’t.

I am intrigued as to why you see the need for a 2:1 scope. I wonder if it is born out of your experiences with either commercial fishing (a completely different world to that of leisure sailing) or emergencies (where sometimes it can be challenging to remember that you only see people having bad days and easy to forget that meanwhile 99% of everyone else is having a fine time) in other words the need for a 2:1 scope is so remote in leisure yachting it can either be ignored or mitigated in other ways.

Each to their own.

 

[LittleSister]

The problem with the internet and Google is that you can find almost anything that will appear on your screen in black and white and claims to be true. Proper research isn’t ‘looking things up on the www’.

You're right. But there is an awful lot of codswallop printed on paper in books, too!

Some of that is ideas that had acceptance at the time, but have since been disproved.

Michel Foucault had some interesting things to say about how we come to accept things as 'true' ('in the true', in his terminology), but getting into that would be a Fred Drift too far.

Speaking of which, some forum contributors are not so much dragging as drifting, the result of a weak epistemological chain seemingly unattached to anything grounded in reality!

 

[thinwater]

You're right. But there is an awful lot of codswallop printed on paper in books, too!

Some of that is ideas that had acceptance at the time, but have since been disproved.

Michel Foucault had some interesting things to say about how we come to accept things as 'true' ('in the true', in his terminology), but getting into that would be a Fred Drift too far.

Speaking of which, some forum contributors are not so much dragging as drifting, the result of a weak epistemological chain seemingly unattached to anything grounded in reality!

OMG, we are drifting into religion (anchors -- same thing)!

 

[john_morris_uk]

OMG, we are drifting into religion (anchors -- same thing)!

If we were it would get stamped on quickly.

Scientific knowledge changes and is reviewed. The earth was flat and at the centre of the universe once. Atomic structure was thought to be akin to a spotted dick of particles.

Knowledge increases and the same is true about anchors. We now know better than we did.

 

[vyv_cox]

I’ve got a friend, with time on his hands due to a debilitating illness, and it transpires one of his pastimes is to go on tin foil hat forums and goad the posters. I think he has learned quite a bit about their conspiracies along the way, certainly enough to find their levers to pull. I bet they find him infuriating, and probably metaphorically rip him limb from limb, but he won’t let anything lie because he’s after their rise, it’s his sport.
Just saying…

I think you make a good point. I resolve to myself that I will not post further in the thread but then another outrageous statement is made and I cannot resist. Fortunately it's just entertainment.

 

[TNLI]

I think we can agree that kellets struggle to earn their place on a cruising yacht.

I don’t doubt your claims on the 2:1 rope rode capability on the Herreshoff. I cannot foresee the scenario when I would need such an anchor and I wonder how many of the far more experienced sailors here than I, share your need to cover that scenario. If I had a beautiful Herreshoff (or same generation) varnish bucket drainer, I too might (for the sake of authenticity) be in the market for a bronze folding Herreshoff anchor. I would also have a new gen on hand too. Why? because as the Wooden Boat article you have referenced more than once says, the Herreshoff was good in its day. Remember it was designed when the Kittyhawk was a bundle of sticks and a pile of bed linen in the back of the Wright Brothers shed and the only mammals that flew were bats. I think even you would be pretty miffed if your next plane ride was in a string bag with castor oil refreshments. I accept your risk assessment for your vessels demands an anchor that works with a 2:1 scope and the Herreshoff is the only anchor that meets that need. Mine doesn’t.

I am intrigued as to why you see the need for a 2:1 scope. I wonder if it is born out of your experiences with either commercial fishing (a completely different world to that of leisure sailing) or emergencies (where sometimes it can be challenging to remember that you only see people having bad days and easy to forget that meanwhile 99% of everyone else is having a fine time) in other words the need for a 2:1 scope is so remote in leisure yachting it can either be ignored or mitigated in other ways.

Each to their own.

I was going to work on my lifeboat, but as your question is of interest to a number of boaters that are safety orientated here goes.

1/ Most common reason is you can't get into a main anchorage due to overcrowding, and have no option but to try and anchor outside in deeper water.

2/ Engine failure in the lee of a island that has deep water all the way to the base of the rocks or cliffs. Mostly volcanic islands.

3/ Fishing either private or commercial

4/ Waiting for the current to change whilst in deep water. (Very imprtant in some races).

5/ Combined events like a rig failure with a line around the prop, or simply turning back due to bad weather and then being faced with a breaking bar or lack of daylight to see where the obstructions are in an unmarked anchorage. So you are stuck outside but don't want to motor or sail around all night.

6/ Simple overcrowding where you can't let out enough scope without risking a premature meeting with a neighbour.

I always target 50m, as that covers 90% of the depths near shore for a trip around. Alas not many boats carry say 100m of chain and 100m of line which should be enough for most NG or OG anchors.
Reason no 6 is a bit different as you could set up a Bahamian moor or smetimes a line or two ashore, BUT regardless of why you need to anchor in deep water or a tight spot, you need an anchor that will do it, and any heavy fishermans will work with 2 to 1 rope, but the best anchor for that situation is the Herreshoff as it does not matter what bottom type you have it will set and reset very quickly and provide good holding, although only one third up the tables for sand. Heavy weed and rocks are a fact of life in many places even close in to the shore.

You also need to think about how you would anchor your boats tender in some places that are deeper than normal, and a folding grapnel or small 2KG Herreshoff with a long light line will work well whilst you figure out if you are capable of rowing the rest of the trip to shore or getting the outboard working again. Good seamanship indicates you should plan the trip to shore so that an engine failure or dropped oar results in you drifting towards the boat you departed from.

If you do a lot of sailing or motoring, it is in reality just a matter of time before you find out why the old timers carry an anchor that works with a 2 to 1 rope rode. Some offshore RNLI boats carry a large admiralty pattern fishermans, BUT in my opinion they are nothing like as useful as the real thing, a bronze Herreshoff, as it's more of a general purpose anchor. Alas a special oreder bronze one for a large lifeboat would be very expensive. A 17lb one is 1200 quid, BUT at the end of the day you do get what you pay for and a nice shiny bronze anchor will earn you a lot of street credibilty in the marina.

 

[LittleSister]

OMG, we are drifting into religion (anchors -- same thing)!

Harrumph! I never mentioned or alluded to religion. (Are you trying to get me excommunicated from the Forum? )

That said, while religion and anchors are not at all the same thing, both may be associated with prayers!

 

[Dellquay13]

I think you make a good point. I resolve to myself that I will not post further in the thread but then another outrageous statement is made and I cannot resist. Fortunately it's just entertainment.

I keep coming back too, like a rubbernecker at a car crash

 

[SaltIre]

OMG, we are drifting into religion (anchors -- same thing)!

Will your anchor hold in the middle of the night,
when the clouds turn black causing fear and fright?
When the strong tides run and the waves break high,
will your anchor drift, or hold 'til daybreak's nigh?

Refrain:
We have some anchors to feed debate,
Rocnas Spades and others that some folk hate;
fastened to some chain which could well break,
one of us suggests they might be fake!
Anon

 

[noelex]

 

[TNLI]

Unknown Manufacturer, 20th century | Admiralty Pattern Kedge Anchor | Worlds within Worlds | Works from the Collection of Peter Petrou | 2021 | Sotheby's (sothebys.com)

There is not a lot of difference between an Admiralty pattern anchor, a Yachtsman and a Herreshoff. The difference just concern the size of the flukes. I've only got a folding stock anchor, (Same as an early model of Herry)
Folding Stock Admiralty Anchor - Kedge Anchor | Osculati (jimmygreen.com)

Picture of Nathaniel Herreshoff, designer and builder of the finest series of racing yachts and motor boats. His best legacy was to leave behind the incredible worlds first general purpose deep water anchor.

 

[TNLI]

Just looking at what the Germans are selling in the way of anchors, and was surprised at the low cost of a stainless CQR and the 2 hybrid Danforths. SVB the company selling them is a well known chandlery. Fairly cheap and a good range of items.

: Pflugschar-Anker - Edelstahl, at www.SVB.de (svb-media.de)

Very nice, BUT I'm not buying one cos I don't trust cheap stainless in fatigue life or shear failure terms.
Love the names: ANKER SOC, (CQR), PLATTENANKER, and GRIP ANKER.

The design of the 2 hybrid Danforths is very interesting, cos one disadvantage with the original design is that it's bad in weeds. One big reason for that is what happens in a 180 degree wind shift, where the shank will reverse direction without the flukes rolling to one side. That only happens if the rode moves directly over the anchor, but when it happens to the anchor with some weed jammed in the slot, the flukes then fail to hinge, so the anchor drags and does not reset. Now if you look at the German design ity has a significant end plate that is much larger than the normal Danforth. Once the anchor starts to drag after a 180 veer, it should press down enough to overcome some weed stuck in the slots. In short I suspect this is a better version of the classic Danforth, and I've seen a number of them on the bows of mostly German yachts in the Cannery Islands.

It would be interesting to see a test series with a standard Danforth, or Fortress, Plattenanker and the one that did real well in some mature Practical Sailor tests, (Slightly better than a genuine CQR), the wonderful BULWAGGA. Obviously the tests should be done with results listed in both deck area, (Size), and weight vs performance. When I have some time I will do a search for results in German, as there are bound to be some listed for the Bismark, as that had a slightly thicker version of the Grip Anker, and carried 4 anchors, 3 at the bow and 1 at the stern. My lifeboat anchor plan has one at the stern, 2 rigged and ready at the bow and one clamped to a stanchion. 2 anchors are always better than one.

Refrain:
We have some anchors to feed debate,
Rocnas Spades and others that some folk hate;
fastened to some chain which could well break,
one of us suggests they might be fake!
Anon

Contrary to popular opinion in this forum I don't dislike the Spade, chain can break and was stunned at the variable results of the tests on UK chandleries. The Germans are real fussy about what they sell, partly because you get a 2 year guarantee, and also cos of the TUV Sud inspectors that can have you shot at dawn for flogging duff far Eastern parts.
Not seen too many fake anchors, just unbranded junk copies. The fakes are the unbranded SS parts like anchor swivels, joiners and connectors, although I would point out that there have been a number of fakes of SS rigging parts, even the 1 by 19 or Dyform wire itself, that fooled everyone until they started failing. Mostly Hasselfors wire and Norseman terminals.

 

[vyv_cox]

Just looking at what the Germans are selling in the way of anchors, and was surprised at the low cost of a stainless CQR and the 2 hybrid Danforths. SVB the company selling them is a well known chandlery. Fairly cheap and a good range of items.

: Pflugschar-Anker - Edelstahl, at www.SVB.de (svb-media.de)

Very nice, BUT I'm not buying one cos I don't trust cheap stainless in fatigue life or shear failure terms.
Love the names: ANKER SOC, (CQR), PLATTENANKER, and GRIP ANKER.

The design of the 2 hybrid Danforths is very interesting, cos one disadvantage with the original design is that it's bad in weeds. One big reason for that is what happens in a 180 degree wind shift, where the shank will reverse direction without the flukes rolling to one side. That only happens if the rode moves directly over the anchor, but when it happens to the anchor with some weed jammed in the slot, the flukes then fail to hinge, so the anchor drags and does not reset. Now if you look at the German design ity has a significant end plate that is much larger than the normal Danforth. Once the anchor starts to drag after a 180 veer, it should press down enough to overcome some weed stuck in the slots. In short I suspect this is a better version of the classic Danforth, and I've seen a number of them on the bows of mostly German yachts in the Cannery Islands.

It would be interesting to see a test series with a standard Danforth, or Fortress, Plattenanker and the one that did real well in some mature Practical Sailor tests, (Slightly better than a genuine CQR), the wonderful BULWAGGA. Obviously the tests should be done with results listed in both deck area, (Size), and weight vs performance. When I have some time I will do a search for results in German, as there are bound to be some listed for the Bismark, as that had a slightly thicker version of the Grip Anker, and carried 4 anchors, 3 at the bow and 1 at the stern. My lifeboat anchor plan has one at the stern, 2 rigged and ready at the bow and one clamped to a stanchion. 2 anchors are always better than one.

Refrain:
We have some anchors to feed debate,
Rocnas Spades and others that some folk hate;
fastened to some chain which could well break,
one of us suggests they might be fake!
Anon

Contrary to popular opinion in this forum I don't dislike the Spade, chain can break and was stunned at the variable results of the tests on UK chandleries. The Germans are real fussy about what they sell, partly because you get a 2 year guarantee, and also cos of the TUV Sud inspectors that can have you shot at dawn for flogging duff far Eastern parts.
Not seen too many fake anchors, just unbranded junk copies. The fakes are the unbranded SS parts like anchor swivels, joiners and connectors, although I would point out that there have been a number of fakes of SS rigging parts, even the 1 by 19 or Dyform wire itself, that fooled everyone until they started failing. Mostly Hasselfors wire and Norseman terminals.

What are these variable results on UK chandleries' chain? I have not published any results but every one passed.

What is your evidence that chain can break? Of course anything will break if loaded heavily enough but this is just not possible in anchoring. Hence the move towards smaller chain than used to be the case

 

[Yachtingsouthwest]

Moderators when is TNLI going to be moderated some of the suggestions being made are not helpful to new boaters also the continuous incorrect references to RNLI operations and equipment is unfair.

 

[SaltIre]

Moderators when is TNLI going to be moderated some of the suggestions being made are not helpful to new boaters also the continuous incorrect references to RNLI operations and equipment is unfair.

If you click the "Report" icon below a post you can ask the Moderators to review it. If you don't they don't.

 

[TNLI]

Moderators when is TNLI going to be moderated some of the suggestions being made are not helpful to new boaters also the continuous incorrect references to RNLI operations and equipment is unfair.

Which suggestions for new boaters are not helpful, and which reference to the RNLI anchoring gear unfair ?? I guess it's not fair of me to list the anchors they use if you don't agree because your boat does not have a Lewmar Delta, Spade or Admiralty fishermans.
Is it unhelpful to suggest that a new boater buy more than one anchor, and more than one rode, or buy an anchor they can use in deep water, rocks and weeds ??

 

[TNLI]

What are these variable results on UK chandleries' chain? I have not published any results but every one passed.

What is your evidence that chain can break? Of course anything will break if loaded heavily enough but this is just not possible in anchoring. Hence the move towards smaller chain than used to be the case

IT'S DANGEROUS TO SUGGEST BOATERS SHOULD USE SMALLER CHAIN SIZES, smaller chain means smaller shackle pins, and the stainless ones they seem to think look pretty, (I never use stainless, just galvanised), are a major cause of failures.

Your own company web site has a broken chain picture. I should have posted a link to the study on chains, but will look that up later.

Whilst on the subject of chains and connectors of various types, (Never stainless unless it's fully certified and direct from Lewmar or Lofrans), I've got some more bad news for some NG owners about how a shackle fits:
Anchor Chain Attachment. Anchor Test Video #92 - YouTube

Obviously use the biggest and best shackle, (There is a Practical Sailor article on the different ones available), and the largest chain you can handle in locker space and combined weight terms, and don't forget it's good exercise to recover an anchor by hand or by using the winch handle for the emergency windlass drive socket. Obviously you don't want to finish up with the anchor and chain being too difficult to recover.

When I buy chain, I lay it out in the garden or on the pontoon and then use a dye marker to look for cracked welds, or if it's in the garden just mix up some salt solution and pour it along the chain every day for a week or so, and then check for rusty welds, as that probably means the weld has cracked, or you have purchased ungalvanised chain.

Joining chain links: The safest way to extend your anchor chain (pbo.co.uk)

Reliable Chain Connections - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)

Yachting Monthly's anchor chain test - YouTube

I broke an anchor chain! - Cruisers & Sailing Forums (cruisersforum.com)
(Can't be true of course)

 

[vyv_cox]

IT'S DANGEROUS TO SUGGEST BOATERS SHOULD USE SMALLER CHAIN SIZES, smaller chain means smaller shackle pins, and the stainless ones they seem to think look pretty, (I never use stainless, just galvanised), are a major cause of failures.

Your own company web site has a broken chain picture. I should have posted a link to the study on chains, but will look that up later.

Whilst on the subject of chains and connectors of various types, (Never stainless unless it's fully certified and direct from Lewmar or Lofrans), I've got some more bad news for some NG owners about how a shackle fits:
Anchor Chain Attachment. Anchor Test Video #92 - YouTube

Obviously use the biggest and best shackle, (There is a Practical Sailor article on the different ones available), and the largest chain you can handle in locker space and combined weight terms, and don't forget it's good exercise to recover an anchor by hand or by using the winch handle for the emergency windlass drive socket. Obviously you don't want to finish up with the anchor and chain being too difficult to recover.

When I buy chain, I lay it out in the garden or on the pontoon and then use a dye marker to look for cracked welds, or if it's in the garden just mix up some salt solution and pour it along the chain every day for a week or so, and then check for rusty welds, as that probably means the weld has cracked, or you have purchased ungalvanised chain.

Joining chain links: The safest way to extend your anchor chain (pbo.co.uk)

Reliable Chain Connections - Practical Sailor (practical-sailor.com)

Yachting Monthly's anchor chain test - YouTube

If you bothered to read the page rather than look at the pictures, or even look a little more carefully at the photo, you would see that I hacksawed the link and levered the weld open. Despite its less than ideal welds the chain reached its specified strength.

No wonder people do not trust what you write.

 

[thinwater]

If we were it would get stamped on quickly.

Scientific knowledge changes and is reviewed. The earth was flat and at the centre of the universe once. Atomic structure was thought to be akin to a spotted dick of particles.

Knowledge increases and the same is true about anchors. We now know better than we did.

... look a little more carefully at the photo, you would see that I hacksawed the link and levered the weld open ....

This is a large stud link chain, but the common fracture pattern is obvious. Also, this chain was probably on the bottom for a while before photographing. Normally, the crack will be rusty and the fresh break will be white.