An Attempt to board a Yacht off Portugal

[25931]

I would only be breaking the law in Portugal as I understand the law correctly,
IF I was in Portugal more then six months and didn't have flares on board or had out of date flares same as a life raft .
This all goes back some years when it was agreed that boat passing through Portugal and not staying longer then 180 days only need to apply to their country rules when it come to safety equipment.
If that change in the last year , I couldn't say .

Passing through is one thing,staying for 180 days is another and I don't think that it applies.
Incidentally I wonder why anyone should think that Cadiz Bay is "off Portugal"

 

[sailaboutvic]

Passing through is one thing,staying for 180 days is another and I don't think that it applies.

I think you find it doesn't drop a note to the RYA and ask , if I remember rightly unless the boat. Is based in Portugal or stays longer then six month as what equipment need to be carried on board is down the the outer itnis register in .
You may not know quite a few years back Portugal tried to fines some boats for not having life raft and not carrying flares, the RYA got involved and part agreed that as long as the boat isn't staying in Portugal and only cruise their country rules would apply .

 

[25931]

I think you find it doesn't drop a note to the RYA and ask , if I remember rightly unless the boat. Is based in Portugal or stays longer then six month as what equipment need to be carried on board is down the the outer itnis register in .
You may not know quite a few years back Portugal tried to fines some boats for not having life raft and not carrying flares, the RYA got involved and part agreed that as long as the boat isn't staying in Portugal and only cruise their country rules would apply .

As I remember some were fined but I never saw anything to say that they were repaid. As this was about 20 years ago and I am in my 90th year things might have changed that I haven't heard about but I doubt it and I still comply when in Portuguese waters.

 

[sailaboutvic]

As I remember some were fined but I never saw anything to say that they were repaid. As this was about 20 years ago and I am in my 90th year things might have changed but I doubt it and I still comply when in Portuguese waters.

I have to correct myself , there wasn't a six month figure mentioned, it was while cruising through the Portuguese water , where I may be mistaken with the six month part is ,
we can or should I say was able to cruise any EU country and stay within that country for 180 days after that we was supposed to register in that country , of course no one did or at less no one I heard of did and the only time there was problems was in some parts of Spain ,
As for your posting #183 , I not seen any thing about any fines being re paid , I think them who got fined at the time ended up not getting any thing back but then I am guessing .
, as to if it all still apply , as far as I know it does , no one seen to have reported other wise ,
It been some years since we sailed in Portugal come to they 10 years and while there there few times we was boarded we wasn't asked about flares all they was interested in is ship papers , where we came from and our next port of call .
Over most winters we met up with people who have pass that way , and as you know people are quick to give out bad news , when it comes to Portugal most only got good things to say about it other then the marinas are bloody expensive.

 

[25931]

I have to correct myself , there wasn't a six month figure mentioned, it was while cruising through the Portuguese water , where I may be mistaken with the six month part is ,
we can or should I say was able to cruise any EU country and stay within that country for 180 days after that we was supposed to register in that country , of course no one did or at less no one I heard of did and the only time there was problems was in some parts of Spain ,
As for your posting #183 , I not seen any thing about any fines being re paid , I think them who got fined at the time ended up not getting any thing back but then I am guessing .
, as to if it all still apply , as far as I know it does , no one seen to have reported other wise ,
It been some years since we sailed in Portugal come to they 10 years and while there there few times we was boarded we wasn't asked about flares all they was interested in is ship papers , where we came from and our next port of call .
Over most winters we met up with people who have pass that way , and as you know people are quick to give out bad news , when it comes to Portugal most only got good things to say about it other then the marinas are bloody expensive.

Portugal has always been a friendly place and the Policia Maritima only seem to be interested in one thing at a time - last year it was "light dues" but you never know and the laws do exist. I am hoping that Brexit will not cause any change in attitude.

 

[Graham376]

I have to correct myself , there wasn't a six month figure mentioned, it was while cruising through the Portuguese water , where I may be mistaken with the six month part is ,

You were correct the first time. 10 - 12 years ago, boats of various nationalities were being stopped by navy and police and threatened with fines for not complying with Portuguese safety equipment rules, some were diverted to nearest port to buy missing equipment or have life raft serviced. After RYA intervention, it was agreed that boats here <6 months do not have to comply. Bear in mind that police still have the power to impound any boat they deem not seaworthy, we've seen it happen.

 

[sailaboutvic]

You were correct the first time. 10 - 12 years ago, boats of various nationalities were being stopped by navy and police and threatened with fines for not complying with Portuguese safety equipment rules, some were diverted to nearest port to buy missing equipment or have life raft serviced. After RYA intervention, it was agreed that boats here <6 months do not have to comply. Bear in mind that police still have the power to impound any boat they deem not seaworthy, we've seen it happen.

Thank you Graham , like most of us with age the old mind plays tricks so I tho best to correct what I said not to confuse 25931 .
This tend to stick with me as it was around the last time we sailed in Portugal.

 

[NorthRising]

Just goes to show no where is safe any more from these gangs .
If we carried flares which we don't any more , I would at fire one in the rib , the problem would had been if they had guns .

Harpoon on the bow

 

[john_morris_uk]

We not done for some years now , we have a Epirb , VHF, telephones and one laser flares ,
The one reason we don't carry them is they expire date isn't long and if we are stop with expired flares in most EU country there some big fines , the other reason which is more important is I dislike carrying a bomb on boats which could go off any time .
Some years back flares where needed for safety but my view ithere other safety device about now .
Bit like burning a barrow of tar on deck , no one would even thing of that now days , or hanging Sails up side down . Imagine trying to do that in 50 kts of wind .

We had dinner with friends the other night who had a couple staying on board who lost their boat the other week in the Medcan storm , we chatted how they when about getting help , there first call was made on vhf which was picked up by Malta Radio some 60 miles away the condition must had been out standing to reach that far , at the same time they set off their Epird , Australia where the Epird was registered contract Greece CG almost the same time Malta CG did the same this was relayed to a tanker who contacted them by VHF there was ask if they had flares and to fire one so the tanker could get an idea where there was in very high seas
He a Very experience sailor but like many never use a flare before , he ended up firing it into the wind , the thing shot back at them just missing his wife , he refuse to fire the only other one he had on board, the tanker located them 10 mins later .
That flare could had badly injured them .
Sadly they lost their boat and most of their belongings,
lucky for them they are safe and well .

I'm very sorry for their loss, but the story says more to me about how essential it is to practice setting flares off than how dangerous the things are.

As others say, messing around with air rifles, flare guns, etc. is dangerous and foolish; fine for Jason Bourne, not for real life.

Here is a vid purporting to show a stopped pirate attack. Try and count the number of rounds used bearing in mind that those weapons (if this is real) are a tad more powerful. User discretion required:

Their fire and control orders were not exactly text book. Lots of Rambo style shooting.

"I'll give you weapons free in a moment" and then "warning shots" which turned into blast away as much as you feel like it without any further orders...?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I'm very sorry for their loss, but the story says more to me about how essential it is to practice setting flares off than how dangerous the things are.

John where do you practice setting flares off , in the UK the RNLI have some days when they will show people but for many cruisers there no where they can Practice .
If you set a flares of some where like Greece or Portugal just to practice you probably looking at being locked away or at the very less a big fine .
Last time I practice set a flares was over 30 years ago , and to be honest if I had to do it in a spare of the moment possible while the boat was sinking in the dark I probably get it wrong .

 

[john_morris_uk]

John where do you practice setting flares off , in the UK the RNLI have some days when they will show people but for many cruisers there no where they can Practice .
If you set a flares of some where like Greece or Portugal just to practice you probably looking at being locked away or at the very less a big fine .
Last time I practice set a flares was over 30 years ago , and to be honest if I had to do it in a spare of the moment possible while the boat was sinking in the dark I probably get it wrong .

The last time I practiced was on a sea survival course. I admit it was with the military but I’ve been led to believe some civilian courses allow practice.

Edit: A quick google finds RYA SEA SURVIVAL COURSE - Ocean Sports Tuition

 

[nortada]

John where do you practice setting flares off , in the UK the RNLI have some days when they will show people but for many cruisers there no where they can Practice .
If you set a flares of some where like Greece or Portugal just to practice you probably looking at being locked away or at the very less a big fine .
Last time I practice set a flares was over 30 years ago , and to be honest if I had to do it in a spare of the moment possible while the boat was sinking in the dark I probably get it wrong .

The is a flare firing exercise every winter on the beach at Lagos. Supervised by the maritime police.

 

[Graham376]

The is a flare firing exercise every winter on the beach at Lagos. Supervised by the maritime police.

There's an unofficial one in Lisbon every N Years Eve, seems everyone disposes of their old flares along the Tejo, tough luck if someone's in distress.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The last time I practiced was on a sea survival course. I admit it was with the military but I’ve been led to believe some civilian courses allow practice.

Edit: A quick google finds RYA SEA SURVIVAL COURSE - Ocean Sports Tuition

It isn't usual to do live firing of distress flares on a Sea Survival course; very few places can offer appropriate safety conditions. It's pretty much impossible to demonstrate a live parachute flare inland, because they are still burning when they land. We were simply shown demonstration dummies to familiarise ourselves with the various mechanisms by which they are fired. We were also instructed on precautions to take when firing them.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It isn't usual to do live firing of distress flares on a Sea Survival course; very few places can offer appropriate safety conditions. It's pretty much impossible to demonstrate a live parachute flare inland, because they are still burning when they land. We were simply shown demonstration dummies to familiarise ourselves with the various mechanisms by which they are fired. We were also instructed on precautions to take when firing them.

I agree that’s why most courses do. However it appears that some offer live firing but I am not confident it would include parachute flares. It’s a pity because we used to fire off dozens of para-illumes on exercises and they’re basically the same thing. Whoosh-bang=lots of light shining and lighting up an area. I’m not sure para-illumes go so high as a parachute flare? (We never set fire to anything, but I remember helping take the tracer rounds out of belt fed ammunition when the live firing ranges were very dry. )

 

[Achosenman]

The course I did late last year included setting off handheld flares. We did not fire parachute flares. There is a different technique with regard to using the Schermuly illuminations we used in the forces and distress flares when considering cloud base. One thing became very clear very fast. You don’t want to set a hand flare off in an inflatable raft if you can avoid it. I wouldn’t bet on staying afloat if you don’t get it exactly right.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The course I did late last year included setting off handheld flares. We did not fire parachute flares. There is a different technique with regard to using the Schermuly illuminations we used in the forces and distress flares when considering cloud base. One thing became very clear very fast. You don’t want to set a hand flare off in an inflatable raft if you can avoid it. I wouldn’t bet on staying afloat if you don’t get it exactly right.

All that may be true but the reason I raised the issue was because of a disaster involving loss of a yacht and flares not being used correctly. Practice is everything.

 

[25931]

There's an unofficial one in Lisbon every N Years Eve, seems everyone disposes of their old flares along the Tejo, tough luck if someone's in distress.

Some decades ago Blackpool & Fleetwood YC used to have a great time with out of date flares every 5th of Nov.

 

[nortada]

All that may be true but the reason I raised the issue was because of a disaster involving loss of a yacht and flares not being used correctly. Practice is everything.

Agree, training and regular practice is everything.

In a previous existence, I was a Combat, Survival and Rescue Officer and use to demonstrate all the flares we used and then supervised aircrew using flares.

A Basic Training Requirement. Well trained aircrew in a non-stress, training environment could still cock it up so I dread to think what could happen on a yacht in distress at night.

A word from the other end, please do not fire the rocket at the helicopter coming to rescue you. A flare bouncing off the rotor doesn't improve your day.

As there our many ways of locating casualties, I would withdraw flares and possibly replace them with lasers.??

 

[dom]

Their fire and control orders were not exactly text book. Lots of Rambo style shooting.

"I'll give you weapons free in a moment" and then "warning shots" which turned into blast away as much as you feel like it without any further orders...?

That's kind of my point, security choices in such segments are often between professionals (expensive) and wannabe Rambos (cheap). In Iraq self-styled Terminators, ZZ-Top aficionados, and Indiana Jones dreamers were all to be found. These Rambos tend to share a love of military weaponry unavailable to them at home, and of heavy-fire Call of Duty style combat.

The pirates are also well armed, the price of life is low, and Hollywood endings rarely work out for anyone.