Aldi Lithium Batteries

[Neeves]

Aldi in Australia are selling LiFEPO4 100amp batteries in one of their specials.

The battery has an internal BMS with no blue tooth.

This special is part of their camping range.

100Ah Lithium-Ion Battery

I note on the website it says they have had shipping delays - this is not evident in Sydney, camping was last week and there were a couple of batteries on the shelves today (I assume left over from last week). Pricing seems attractive, compared to other similar batteries (the exchange rate is roughly 2:1, so the batteries cost around stg225, including our 10% sales tax roughly stg25 cheaper than I haver seen elsewhere. To me, for application where the requirement is an independent source of power, (totally off grid) the batteries are a bit small.

I'll leave it to other to underline the potential danger of a battery with an inability for the owner to monitor and modify the BMS.

Jonathan

 

[B27]

In the UK, you can get Ecoworthy 100Ah 12V Lifepo4 on ebay for £257 right now.

The BMS issues will become apparent if your use case is not compatible.

I think prices are falling to a point where '12V LFP leisure batteries' are tempting for many activities.
The internal BMS is probably fine for the average user who will charge at home with the proper charger and maybe harvest a bit of solar here and there.
£150 gets me a 50Ah battery which could run my portable fridge for a long weekend.
And it only weighs 13lb, so it's easy to take home to charge.
I do use the fridge on land sometimes.

For many people this could be a simple solution not needing lots of blue boxes from Victron and friends.
It could be a bit like the very first overnight sailing I did, just a 12V battery for nav lights etc, no means to charge required. 'Camping Afloat'. Life was very simple in those days!

There are lots of small cabin boats around with no inboard engine and little or no solar.

 

[Refueler]

A lot is talked about BMS etc. - but the talk usually connects with some pretty sophisticated use / charge regimes.

The FFP linked to here - I would consider as long as sensibly charged / maintained would be fine for less sophisticated applications. Some of the posts on forums - not only for batterys - literally make one feel as should be in a science laboratory !!

 

[Refueler]

There are lots of small cabin boats around with no inboard engine and little or no solar.

My Father had a couple of large 9v lantern batterys in one boat for 'lighting' ..... on another boat - we had an oil lamp !

 

[AntarcticPilot]

My Father had a couple of large 9v lantern batterys in one boat for 'lighting' ..... on another boat - we had an oil lamp !

We mostly used pressure lanterns.

 

[Refueler]

We mostly used pressure lanterns.

OK .. I should have said - Hurricane Lamp .... not Aladdins Lamp !!

 

[dancrane]

I was convinced I wanted to make my Achilles 'no-tech', and would gladly have removed the weight and complexity of wires, switch panels and lead-acid battery, instead favouring handheld GPS/VHF, oil lamps and leadline. We certainly used a couple of big church candles for most of our interior lighting...

...then one night I dropped an insulin pen which rolled out of sight. One click gave us the powerful, if unatmospheric, overhead light. I'd still enjoy the option to treat a yacht like one from fifty or more years ago, but I doubt I'd ever go fully old-school.

Still, the idea of making the boat switchable from conveniently modern to evocatively tradtional is very appealing.

 

[B27]

I can recall family camping holidays with Tilley lamps and primus stoves.
I remember gas lighting and no heating in static caravans we hired.

I can't recall what we ate though, so I guess the lack of fridge just meant shopping most days?

To get back to the subject, LFP batteries retailing around £200 per kWh is going to be interesting in terms of home solar and 'load shifting' for variable tariffs, as well as for boats and caravans.

It's the old question though, when is best time to buy if prices are still falling?
I had thought, if I need a new house battery this season, it might be my last lead-acid one.
I hope to kick that decision down the road another year or two though.

 

[Neeves]

One take I had on Aldi's offer.

Lithium is mainstream and acceptable, Aldi are not going to stock something that is questionable for any reason, nor are they going to stock something that is not going to sell, quickly.

There is much anguish here over how it is used and managed - either there is a lot of education out there - or people don't care or don't know they should care.

Since seeing the batteries in Aldi I have wondered how people are going to re-charge them.

There is a large, well developed industry here devoted to Lithium for 4WD to go off road. 10,000 people a year cross the Simpson Desert (and there are harder and more onerous treks) - which takes a week in a 4x4. You need power to make the food palatable and you need a reliable arrangement. The idea that yacht applications are more critical than an application supporting a desert crossing simply does not stand up. The 4x4 industry has all the blue boxes, and other colours, but these are absent from anything that Aldi offers.

The battery offer will come to an Aldi near you. It will be interesting to see how the usage develops.

Jonathan

I don't know when the best time to buy might be but the industry is still developing. BYD had limited mention historically but they are becoming a major player in battery product, which (I believe) is a different technology to what we are used to.

 

[Sea Change]

BYD had limited mention historically but they are becoming a major player in battery product, which (I believe) is a different technology to what we are used to.

Same technology:

BYD's battery division, FinDreams Battery, is the world's third largest producer of electric vehicle batteries as of the first half of 2022. It specialises in lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries, which is marketed as the Blade battery.

(wiki)

 

[Neeves]

Same technology:

(wiki)

My understanding is that they 'use' 'blade technology' which is a different assembly to other LFP batteries.

BYD blade battery - What makes it ultra-safe and comparison with ternary batteries • EVreporter.

Jonathan

 

[Sea Change]

My understanding is that they 'use' 'blade technology' which is a different assembly to other LFP batteries.

BYD blade battery - What makes it ultra-safe and comparison with ternary batteries • EVreporter.

Jonathan

Interesting. So the chemistry is the same but the cells are a different physical format.
I don't think there's any reason why this couldn't be used in non EV applications too.

 

[Refueler]

Physical construction differences abound in ALL battery forms ....

NIXX in cylindrical form with circular plates .. in flat form with flat plates ...
Lead Acid can be had in cylindrical form as well ...
Even non rechargeable's can be had in various

Then you have the different electrolyte form from near solid to thin water like ..

 

[Snowgoose-1]

So where does this leave yachtsmen like me that perhaps has a LA battery that needs renewing ?

I love the idea of less weight and more capacity with loads more cycles with lithium. Also, the extra reserve power could mean for the same weight I could get a higher AH battery.

Currently, I have just solar charging with a basic mpt controller. What would I need to go lithium ?

TA

 

[Neeves]

So where does this leave yachtsmen like me that perhaps has a LA battery that needs renewing ?

I love the idea of less weight and more capacity with loads more cycles with lithium. Also, the extra reserve power could mean for the same weight I could get a higher AH battery.

Currently, I have just solar charging with a basic mpt controller. What would I need to go lithium ?

TA

Courage

Your summary is correct, for the same weight and same space you could have battery with 2 times the available capacity (of the LA). The battery will cost more than the LA.

There is a balance between the size/capacity of your battery bank and how 'much' you can use it and your ability to return charge to the battery (how much you reap from solar and whether you have the physical space to extend your solar)) - the current thread on solar vs battery capacity gives some information.

I'll not attempt to advise what you might 'need' but you might better define your MPT controller which might be perfect (or not) and you will also benefit from the ability to manage and record your power resource, how many stored amps, voltage etc (so a shunt and meter might be a minimum). Longer term, or how big you want to go - think inverter and then an all electric galley.

If you use the search function you will find a series of overlapping theads where people have described their Lithium builds - they are invaluable reading - particularly Geem and Kelpie (as he was then - now Sea fever?) - but there are others.

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

Currently, I have just solar charging with a basic mpt controller. What would I need to go lithium ?

TA

Basic thing with lifepo4 is don't go too high or too low with the voltage. The BMS management should disconnect the battery if it does. One good way would be victron smartsolar regulator and victron smartshunt. Then the reg talks to the shunt so knows the voltage at the batteries and can be set to stop charging before the voltage gets too high. Which leaves the alternator which will very likely put out too much voltage, there are boxes which will take the alternator voltage & only put out a lower voltage. I got a 25A one off ebay (though cheap not gret as it will just keep on putting out 13.8v even when the LiFePo4 is full which isn't a good idea)
but haven't even wired it in yet, solar has been fine even though the LiFePo4 didn't get to full charge for many months over winter.

Certain death to lead acid

 

[Refueler]

Currently, I have just solar charging with a basic mpt controller. What would I need to go lithium ?

Find the manual for your controller and see what it says ... no-one here can answer that correctly as we don't know what controller you have etc.

 

[Sea Change]

So where does this leave yachtsmen like me that perhaps has a LA battery that needs renewing ?

I love the idea of less weight and more capacity with loads more cycles with lithium. Also, the extra reserve power could mean for the same weight I could get a higher AH battery.

Currently, I have just solar charging with a basic mpt controller. What would I need to go lithium ?

TA

For me the big selling point for LFP was the lower cost over its life. We're hopefully looking at decades of use with virtually no loss of performance. I found the upfront cost of LFP was actually lower than lead acid, unless I went with really basic lead acid leisure batteries which tend to be rated for about 150 cycles, rather than the 3000+ of LFP.

To attempt to summarise, there are three main reasons why simply swapping out your lead acid for LFP may not work:
1- LFP will absorb almost unlimited current, which is a good thing when charging from solar but can cause your alternator to overheat and be damaged. Various ways around that.
2- The charging profile (voltages and times) of LFP is a bit different to lead acid. Check that your solar controller and/or shore power charger can be set for lithium.
3- if a lithium battery goes out of safe limits (over/under voltage, temperature, over current) it will shut down. Doesn't happen often, generally just when there's a problem. You need to think about what systems will be affected by this and how you would deal with it. At full charge it will abruptly stop accepting more power, which can do bad things to alternators.

Those are the problems. There are many ways of solving then, depending on your budget and requirements.

 

[LittleSister]

For me the big selling point for LFP was the lower cost over its life. We're hopefully looking at decades of use with virtually no loss of performance. I found the upfront cost of LFP was actually lower than lead acid, unless I went with really basic lead acid leisure batteries which tend to be rated for about 150 cycles, rather than the 3000+ of LFP.

To attempt to summarise, there are three main reasons why simply swapping out your lead acid for LFP may not work:
1- LFP will absorb almost unlimited current, which is a good thing when charging from solar but can cause your alternator to overheat and be damaged. Various ways around that.
2- The charging profile (voltages and times) of LFP is a bit different to lead acid. Check that your solar controller and/or shore power charger can be set for lithium.
3- if a lithium battery goes out of safe limits (over/under voltage, temperature, over current) it will shut down. Doesn't happen often, generally just when there's a problem. You need to think about what systems will be affected by this and how you would deal with it. At full charge it will abruptly stop accepting more power, which can do bad things to alternators.

Those are the problems. There are many ways of solving then, depending on your budget and requirements.

Thank you for an excellent, succinct post that doesn't assume familiarity with a lot of jargon.

 

[Sea Change]

Thank you for an excellent, succinct post that doesn't assume familiarity with a lot of jargon.

Happy to help! I spent quite a few months trying to get my head around the subject. A lot of the early adopters of lithium for boats were decidedly geeky and seemed to get a bit of a kick out of making things very complicated. But when you're just starting out all you need to know is the basics. You can then choose how to build up a working, safe, system to meet your needs.

Actually talking about safety, one thing I didn't mention was that LFP can deliver enormous currents if you let it. So you do need to use the right size cables, fuse, isolator etc. But tbh lead acid can be pretty energetic too, we're just more used to that technology.