Actual Terms and Conditions stipulating Rigging replacement.

[Refueler]

So many times the comment of 10yrs replace rigging as Insurance requirement is made - but what is reality ?

Please I ask for actual T&C text from any Insurance Co people have dealt with... not the words from some Surveyors report or someones quote of a third party saying they had this. A surveyor making a comment can in fact completely change an Insurance Co's attitude / conditions to insure. That's fine when the item can be accurately assessed / lies within the surveyors real knowledge. I dare to suggest that most yacht surveyors are not rigging specialists and may make comment based on what becomes an 'industry fact' ... Something that becomes 'fact' through repetition rather than real life.

I've dealt with many Insurance Co's as a surveyor ... and for own insurance over many years. I've even had a forestay deck fitting failure - with a boat with rigging well over 20yrs old and never was any question of age / or when replaced. I have not been able to find any reference to age / replacement in any T&C\'s I have searched - other than where Inspection has indicated need.

My point is that I consider its an 'argument' trotted out too often. Do not misunderstand - in no way do I say people should not replace rigging .. should not 'play safe' .... far from it. But lets do it for a more valid reason ....

I left UK back in mid 90's and wound down the Yacht Inspection side - but have maintained an eye on various aspects - not only as an interest but also should I need take care for own boats.

 

[Spanjaard]

You need an electro-microscope to read all those insurance T&C...

I bet you something is being put there. But lets see if someone finds if in black and white.

 

[Graham376]

My 20 year old rig received a serviceable report last year, surveyor included photos of terminals and was happy to put his name (and insurance) to it. Insurers have never queried age and I'm not volunteering info.

 

[srm]

I never had any rigging life term in my insurance policies that covered UK and Scandinavia. However, when I extended cover with the same company from UK to the Azores a new "warranted clause" was added to the policy to the effect that the rigging must be less than ten years old.

Note: if a policy includes clauses that are "Warranted" not complying immediately invalidates the policy.

 

[jwilson]

Selden in one of their current online documents state "We advise you to replace all the standing rigging after 20,000 Nm which is the expected life of wire standing rigging " - this is in the maintenance section. Previously I have read another Selden document that quoted "..... ten years or once round the world" but I cannot now find this online. The current version seems to say Great Cape circumnavigators should stop and change rigging 7/8th of the way round!

In practice insurers don't often specify any specific rigging age. What happens is that on a survey the report often says somthing along the lines of ".... if the rigging is over ten years old we recommend replacement". Sometimes ten might be 12 or 15, but ten is most common. The insurer then offers cover "... provided all survey recommendations are carried out." So there are plenty of boats out there with 20-25 year old or even older standing rigging that are insured, just not surveyed recently.

Personally I changed my AWB standing rigging at 12 years old: it had been masthead inspected yearly, mostly self-inspected, but twice by riggers. My surveyor was perfectly happy with this plan.

 

[Refueler]

I\' glad that people have replied in the spirit of the thread ...

That is the crux - when a surveyor makes a comment ... or a person is looking for serious voyage insurance. Those are the most likely times such replacement may be called for (we are not talking aboutr Owner decision to).

My rigging apart from one cap shroud is well over 25yrs ... the cap shroud was replaced after a mishap against town quay. Mast was down and hanging about 3.5m out rfrom transom ... I was a bit over enthusiastic coming off the quay and caught masthead on the fendering !!

I dare anyone to come on my boat and actually show me and why - which is is which .. old or new ... seriously. (Note that before stopping NDT - we ran the Ultrasonic gear over the rigging .... )

 

[Lucy52]

Isn't there some get out, written or implied, to the effect that you should maintain your boat, as a prudent boat owner. Thus, if you can show the rigging has been inspected in a timely manner, and any advice heeded, then you would be covered. If not, you might be on your own.
The matter need not be explicitly stated in the T&C's.

 

[Refueler]

Isn't there some get out, written or implied, to the effect that you should maintain your boat, as a prudent boat owner. Thus, if you can show the rigging has been inspected in a timely manner, and any advice heeded, then you would be covered. If not, you might be on your own.
The matter need not be explicitly stated in the T&C's.

I get your point and its a valid question ...

I think it falls into the same arena as the Letter from Boatyard saying as far as practicable - said boat is believed in seaworthy condition. People tend to forget that many Ins Co's will accept that instead of survey ... especially on the small to medium older boat. Having seen some surveyors work - I would trust the Boatyard letter more !!

 

[Refueler]

So far then - no-ones actually produced any T&C that specifically detail age for replacement ....... apart from 'srm' and his special case of Ocean passage.

 

[Tranona]

I\' glad that people have replied in the spirit of the thread ...

That is the crux - when a surveyor makes a comment ... or a person is looking for serious voyage insurance. Those are the most likely times such replacement may be called for (we are not talking aboutr Owner decision to).

My rigging apart from one cap shroud is well over 25yrs ... the cap shroud was replaced after a mishap against town quay. Mast was down and hanging about 3.5m out rfrom transom ... I was a bit over enthusiastic coming off the quay and caught masthead on the fendering !!

I dare anyone to come on my boat and actually show me and why - which is is which .. old or new ... seriously. (Note that before stopping NDT - we ran the Ultrasonic gear over the rigging .... )

That is just the nature of the beast. There are no definitive "rules", nor clear evidence of life or rigging before failure so it is not surprising that you cannot get definitive T&Cs covering it. Insurers will seek to reduce their risk and rigging claims do happen which arguably (because they do not publish any claims data) is due to age in either years or miles sailed or use in extreme conditions they will withold cover if the boat/owner proposal falls into those categories until they are satisfied that the rig is as safe as it can be. This may involve an inspection by a qualified person or replacement. The former is increasingly difficult to get as riggers insurers may not cover them for inspections. I don't know if that is actually the case but that is what riggers say.

Three situations that prompt the question. First is new proposals which require a survey, second is increasingly common when boats reach 40 or 50 years old when a survey is required even of the boat on question has been in the same ownership and insured with the same company for many years, and the third is seeking cover for extended passages.

 

[wiggy]

When questions my insurance company said there was not a time limit but if I made a claim regarding the rig and it was found to be in poor condition I would not be covered. Pretty hard to check the condition if it was all at the bottom of the Solent somewhere

 

[Sandy]

I got Allspars in Plymouth to replace my standing rigging at 10 years. I learnt a great deal about my rigging, including a couple of bodges that the previous people had done!

Sat in a North Sea gale (F8 gusting F9) I was more than happy that the rigging had been replaced. 40 miles offshore is not the place to hear a twang followed by the crash of a mast. In my misspent youth I had a dinghy mast collapse on me, even in an estuary that was no fun.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

So far then - no-ones actually produced any T&C that specifically detail age for replacement ....... apart from 'srm' and his special case of Ocean passage.

My former trimaran insurance stated that the maintenance schedule provided by the manufacturer must be adhered to for the insurance to be valid. The manufacture stipulated mast standing rigging replaced every 10 years and the water stays every 5.

 

[geem]

I got Allspars in Plymouth to replace my standing rigging at 10 years. I learnt a great deal about my rigging, including a couple of bodges that the previous people had done!

Sat in a North Sea gale (F8 gusting F9) I was more than happy that the rigging had been replaced. 40 miles offshore is not the place to hear a twang followed by the crash of a mast. In my misspent youth I had a dinghy mast collapse on me, even in an estuary that was no fun.

Back in 2005 I had a baby stay fail crossing the Atlantic West to East on a catamaran. The failure was caused by the mast pumping due to head winds most of the way from Antigua to the Azores. The babystay had a furler installed. The aluminium extrusion of the furler was a tight fit over the stay such that when the mast pumped and the babystay went slack there was nowhere for the extra wire length to go apart from 2" of exposed wire just below the Stalok fitting at the top of thr baby stay. This constant flexing work hardened the wire and it failed just under the Stalok. I managed to climb the mast and remove the Stalok fitting, reconnect it to the now short wire and made a lashing at the bottom. We replaced it with a new stay in Horta.
There is usually a reason why fittings or wire fail. Corrosion, bad installation, mismatched clevis pins, lack of toggles, etc

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... the water stays every 5.

What are what stays, never heard of this before?

 

[Daverw]

Just had my out of water insurance survey done, not idea of age of rigging. Talked to surveyor and he saw no issue, reported as such and insurance company happy with report, they need another in 10 years time for 40 year old boat

 

[srm]

What are what stays, never heard of this before?

Not heard the term either but as it was a trimaran its fairly obvious. Go and have a look at some smaller, or folding, trimarans. Stays are usually fitted to help triangulate the cross beams, from main hull near waterline out to the float.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

What are water stays, never heard of this before?

As SRM describes. You can see them here...

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Refueler]

Just had my out of water insurance survey done, not idea of age of rigging. Talked to surveyor and he saw no issue, reported as such and insurance company happy with report, they need another in 10 years time for 40 year old boat

Thank you - my point well illustrated.