A potential tragedy

[jwilson]

As others have said, if from a private buyer with no contract and no survey, you have no effective comeback. I would though question whether 320kg was the entire ballast: it seems a very low ballast figure for a 30 foot sailing yacht or motor-sailer. I would expect four of five times that total ballast weight. Is there an external iron lallast keel that forms most of the ballast?

 

[prv]

I would though question whether 320kg was the entire ballast:

This. The idea that the weight of three people could be the difference between “as designed” and “dangerously unseaworthy“ for a traditional 30-footer doesn’t stack up for me. Presumably the boat has outside ballast and then also had a little more in the bilges, with the latter having been removed.

When in the sale process was it removed? Was it there when you viewed the boat? Is it mentioned on any inventory or spec sheet?

Buying a 75-year-old wooden yacht without a survey, unless you have enough boatbuilding experience to effectively do your own (and are allowed the access and take the time to actually do it) seems very risky. Frankly the lack of a few hundred quid’s worth of easily-replaceable ballast seems like a small problem compared to what you may run into in the next year or two…

Pete

 

[UK-WOOZY]

Lead Ingots on ebay

 

[Norman_E]

Looking at all the above it is pretty clear that yo have two courses of action. Firstly ask the scrap man for the date he bought the lead. If it is after you negotiated the purchase then it looks like theft/fraud and you can involve the police. Secondly if it is internal ballast then source some lead, cast it to shape, fit it in, and go sailing.

 

[Daydream believer]

Thank you Mark, we are in Fareham and the boat is in Gosport

Ahh. A long way from Bradwell
It would be handy if you put that piece of info on your avetar.

 

[theresamh]

Where abouts are you based? I have a few lead ingots for sale at the current scrap rate.

Ahh. A long way from Bradwell
It would be handy if you put that piece of info on your avetar.

I will try to amend that thanks

 

[theresamh]

Did the contract of sale include such descriptions/warranties? It's usual for the paperwork to explicitly exclude these, and advise for a survey to the buyer to assure themselves.

Did you get anything in writing? I wonder if it would just be your word against his, were it to be ‘looked into by the authorities’.

Edit: Adam beat me to it.

There were witnesses to the sale exchange

 

[Stemar]

You may have a comeback but, unless you want to give the boat back and get a refund, is it worth it? A wooden boat that someone - even a scrote - would do that to is going to involve some serious work and expenditure, so a few hundred on lead to get on with your life isn't going to be much in the great scheme of the restoration to how you want her.

 

[theresamh]

You may have a comeback but, unless you want to give the boat back and get a refund, is it worth it? A wooden boat that someone - even a scrote - would do that to is going to involve some serious work and expenditure, so a few hundred on lead to get on with your life isn't going to be much in the great scheme of the restoration to how you want her.

We fully intend to restore the boat and will have to replace the ingot, but it is the principle of the thing. This man is selling other boats in the locale and it might be his MO to strip the boat of any precious metals. And to make matters worse, he has now accepted via text that he will replace the ingot, but instead brought pig iron as a replacement, which of course will rot the hull of our wooden boat.

 

[theresamh]

I will try to amend that thanks

Just read that new comers cannot change their profile whilst under probation

 

[theresamh]

As others have said, if from a private buyer with no contract and no survey, you have no effective comeback. I would though question whether 320kg was the entire ballast: it seems a very low ballast figure for a 30 foot sailing yacht or motor-sailer. I would expect four of five times that total ballast weight. Is there an external iron lallast keel that forms most of the ballast?

I found and spoke to the scrap dealer he sold the lead to and they have said it was 320KG, but you are right we will have to have a surveyor take a look, before we go anywhere with the boat

 

[theresamh]

Did the contract of sale include such descriptions/warranties? It's usual for the paperwork to explicitly exclude these, and advise for a survey to the buyer to assure themselves.

Verbal contract, receipt is on a piece of paper, but oral contracts are just as valid as written ones, I think that our only recourse is to pursue a civil case for misrepresentation and tortious negligence. I think the police may not entertain a report, as he sold the lead in late August and I bought it on 9th September, so all I this I can rely on his his misrepresentation and the texts message he has sent to us saying that he will return the lead to us.

 

[prv]

I very much doubt that the police will be interested, this is a civil matter concerning what was or wasn’t included in the contracted sale. I think the stuff about representations of seaworthiness is completely spurious, and it’s not clear to me one way or the other whether the sale actually included the inside ballast or not.

Pete

 

[theresamh]

This. The idea that the weight of three people could be the difference between “as designed” and “dangerously unseaworthy“ for a traditional 30-footer doesn’t stack up for me. Presumably the boat has outside ballast and then also had a little more in the bilges, with the latter having been removed.

When in the sale process was it removed? Was it there when you viewed the boat? Is it mentioned on any inventory or spec sheet?

Buying a 75-year-old wooden yacht without a survey, unless you have enough boatbuilding experience to effectively do your own (and are allowed the access and take the time to actually do it) seems very risky. Frankly the lack of a few hundred quid’s worth of easily-replaceable ballast seems like a small problem compared to what you may run into in the next year or two…

Pete

Boat builder has said that there is additional weight in the keel of the boat, but we must in addition replace that what has been taken. We have no problem replacing the lead, what we have a problem with, is the exposure to danger that the sellers withholding of information may have caused, when all he simply had to say was that he had removed it, whilst we ere negotiating.

 

[Gixer]

I get your frustration but I don't think there's a lot you can do.

This is why lawyers earn good money.
Definition of sail
intransitive verb
1: to travel on water in a ship
2: to travel on water by the action of wind upon sails or by other means

He could easily say, 'yes it can be sailed. Oh, you wanted to use the sails?'

 

[PaulRainbow]

I agree with you, and we carried out as much checks and diligence that one would expect when buying something of this age,

You clearly didn't, or you would have noticed the missing ballast. Sorry to say, this is what surveys are for.

but his knowledge out weighed ours, as he purposefully removed the ballast and knowingly did not share that fact with us, at any point of the sale, he could have said yes, you can sail in it, but there is no ballast, he didn't have to assert that he himself removed it ?‍

You looked at the boat, which had the internal ballast removed, it was removed before you bought the boat, whilst the seller owned it and the lead. You purchased what you looked at, it isn't like he stole the lead after you bought the boat. Although it would have been nice if he had told you he'd sold the ballast, he didn't have to tell you, he's broken no laws that i can see. It would be totally different if you had removed it after you looked at the boat.

320kg of internal ballast in a 30ft boat does not make it unseaworthy or un-sailable. She may well carry that much weight in fuel and water and as much again in other equipment, perhaps more. 320kg of internal ballast is about the same as two fat blokes sitting below decks.

If he's offered to replace the ballast, great, insist it's lead. But if he refuses, i think you'd be advised to suck it up and buy some lead yourself. I doubt you'll have any luck with proceedings against him and you'll just be throwing money away.

 

[mattnj]

Boat builder has said that there is additional weight in the keel of the boat, but we must in addition replace that what has been taken. We have no problem replacing the lead, what we have a problem with, is the exposure to danger that the sellers withholding of information may have caused, when all he simply had to say was that he had removed it, whilst we ere negotiating.

Realistically you need to just forget about it, and go forward from here... :-(

 

[jamie N]

Is the boat floating now, or shore-side? Through hard experience I believe that you'll look back and find the £350 expense quite trivial in the future, compared to the outgoings involved in caring for a vintage wooden boat, and suggest that you put it in the "There's a lesson learnt" box.
I see that this is your 1st day here, so welcome and as soon as you're able, it'd be nice to see some pictures, or the advert from which you bought the boat.

 

[Biggles Wader]

We fully intend to restore the boat and will have to replace the ingot, but it is the principle of the thing. This man is selling other boats in the locale and it might be his MO to strip the boat of any precious metals. And to make matters worse, he has now accepted via text that he will replace the ingot, but instead brought pig iron as a replacement, which of course will rot the hull of our wooden boat.

Again, I suggest you insist he rights the wrongs he did or you go very public with what he is up to. He wont sell many other boats if he aquires a reputation for scrotiness. Sounds like he might be running a business too. More possibilities for redress?

 

[Bobc]

Wipe your mouth and move on. By going after him all you'll do is waste time, money, and end-up falling out of love with the boat.