A potential tragedy

[theresamh]

We fell in love and bought a 1947 30ft wooden sailing and motor Ketch, about 6 weeks ago. We knew it would need some work when we negotiated to buy it and although we did not do a survey, we looked the boat up online, as the previous but one owners had displayed their restoration journey with the boat on a Facebook page.

When we boat the boat from the current owner, he told us that he had bought the boat directly from the previous owners. He asked us what we wanted to do with boat and we said sail her, he then said she was perfectly fit to sail although he was not sure about the rigging, but he knew someone that could look at that for us for a fair price.

But here's the catch, the boat is not fit to sail, nor is it seaworthy as he claimed, as he deliberately removed the lead ballast and sold it, as we have now discovered, to the local scrappy for £320 (£1 per kg).

This man has endangered our lives for such a small some of money, but the question I would like to pose is, is what he asserted to us a criminal offence, ie, a fraudulent deception? As we think this man is a fraudster, and that he tells any lie to induce you to buy his boats and boating paraphernalia. We believe something must be done, but what? Any ideas would be appreciated.

 

[NormanS]

Caveat emptor.

 

[Chae_73]

It would seem that there is a case against the seller in that the boat is not as described and he knew that this was the case.

The difficulty will be in getting any enforcement agency interested in pursuing this.

The most obvious course of action is to return the boat and ask for a full refund as the item is not fit for purpose and not as described by the seller.

The point about endangering life seems to me (not a lawyer etc) to be a bit more of a challenge. I think most people would want to take some steps to satisfy themselves of the seaworthiness of a second hand boat before setting off, over and above "the bloke who I bought it from said it was fine".

 

[theresamh]

Caveat emptor.

Yes agreed, but the sheild to that sword is misrepresentation, a statement that is made to induce another to a deal

 

[Daydream believer]

Where abouts are you based? I have a few lead ingots for sale at the current scrap rate.

 

[adamlang]

Did the contract of sale include such descriptions/warranties? It's usual for the paperwork to explicitly exclude these, and advise for a survey to the buyer to assure themselves.

 

[fredrussell]

Did you get anything in writing? I wonder if it would just be your word against his, were it to be ‘looked into by the authorities’.

Edit: Adam beat me to it.

 

[westernman]

It would seem that there is a case against the seller in that the boat is not as described and he knew that this was the case.

The difficulty will be in getting any enforcement agency interested in pursuing this.

The most obvious course of action is to return the boat and ask for a full refund as the item is not fit for purpose and not as described by the seller.

The point about endangering life seems to me (not a lawyer etc) to be a bit more of a challenge. I think most people would want to take some steps to satisfy themselves of the seaworthiness of a second hand boat before setting off, over and above "the bloke who I bought it from said it was fine".

Is the seller selling as a business?
That makes a difference.

If it is a private person selling not in the line of a business, then I doubt there are any worthwhile avenues to pursue.

If it is a business, you might just be able to insist on a return of goods and a refund.

 

[neilf39]

It may be cheaper to source the 320kg of lead than try and pursue a civil claim if nothing is in writing.

 

[Stemar]

AIUI, If a private seller doesn't say something's wrong, but it is, you have no comeback. If he says it's fine and it isn't - ready to sail, for example, you do. If there's something in writing, you can take it to court; if not, I'd agree with nielf39.

 

[[70521]]

Hello and welcome to the forum

Did you have a survey done? If so I'd be asking your surveyor why they missed a key element.

 

[Daydream believer]

Did you have a survey done?

Have you not read the OPs original post?

 

[sailorbenji]

The only progress you might make is if the seller was a business...other than that, you'll be wasting your time pursuing a private individual, unless you have specific remarks about the ballast in writing most likely.

Cheapest avenue for you is probably going to be to source the missing lead yourselves.

On another note, buying a 1940's wooden boat without a survey.....well you've learnt the lesson I guess.

 

[UK-WOOZY]

i would count your losses and buy new ballast

 

[westernman]

Are you sure the ballast was lead?
A lot of boats had concrete ballast.

 

[UK-WOOZY]

is this it

Edit, was wrong year

 

[theresamh]

It would seem that there is a case against the seller in that the boat is not as described and he knew that this was the case.

The difficulty will be in getting any enforcement agency interested in pursuing this.

The most obvious course of action is to return the boat and ask for a full refund as the item is not fit for purpose and not as described by the seller.

The point about endangering life seems to me (not a lawyer etc) to be a bit more of a challenge. I think most people would want to take some steps to satisfy themselves of the seaworthiness of a second hand boat before setting off, over and above "the bloke who I bought it from said it was fine".

I agree with you, and we carried out as much checks and diligence that one would expect when buying something of this age, but his knowledge out weighed ours, as he purposefully removed the ballast and knowingly did not share that fact with us, at any point of the sale, he could have said yes, you can sail in it, but there is no ballast, he didn't have to assert that he himself removed it ?‍

 

[theresamh]

Where abouts are you based? I have a few lead ingots for sale at the current scrap rate.

Thank you Mark, we are in Fareham and the boat is in Gosport

 

[Biggles Wader]

It could depend on when he removed and sold the lead----before or after you inspected the boat and agreed the purchase?
If before then I think it is down to you,if after then there could be fraud or even theft involved.
However if it was a private sale you will struggle to get any money back so you might be better advised to go down a different route. Social media exposure can be very damaging to some people who have a reputation to uphold and there may be some leverage there?

 

[Wing Mark]

We fell in love and bought a 1947 30ft wooden sailing and motor Ketch, about 6 weeks ago. We knew it would need some work when we negotiated to buy it and although we did not do a survey, we looked the boat up online, as the previous but one owners had displayed their restoration journey with the boat on a Facebook page.

When we boat the boat from the current owner, he told us that he had bought the boat directly from the previous owners. He asked us what we wanted to do with boat and we said sail her, he then said she was perfectly fit to sail although he was not sure about the rigging, but he knew someone that could look at that for us for a fair price.

But here's the catch, the boat is not fit to sail, nor is it seaworthy as he claimed, as he deliberately removed the lead ballast and sold it, as we have now discovered, to the local scrappy for £320 (£1 per kg).

This man has endangered our lives for such a small some of money, but the question I would like to pose is, is what he asserted to us a criminal offence, ie, a fraudulent deception? As we think this man is a fraudster, and that he tells any lie to induce you to buy his boats and boating paraphernalia. We believe something must be done, but what? Any ideas would be appreciated.

If it didn't nearly tip over when you stepped on board, then possibly the boat could be sailed.
Obviously it's not optimum or what the designer intended or what you expected, but I think you will have a hard time proving the seller actually lied.

If the boat is otherwise OK, get some ballast and go sailing.
Unfortunately, scrap metal is a highly regulated business, so you need to be careful looking for scrap lead and it will cost a lot more to buy than it was sold for.

I'm not a lawyer of course!

The general practice is that you get a survey when you buy a boat bigger than a dinghy. You chose not to do that.