a bitch from a raggie

[Birdseye]

I have nothing against motor boats - indeed, I'm thinking on buying one myself. But if I do buy one, will it be compulsory for me to motor through the moorings at 6 knots? And to come off the plane just 20 yards away from the moored boats so everyone gets a good bouncing? And to keep my 2 x 350 hp diesels running in the lock despite the notices saying not to - after all, dont most people look good with a light grey covering of soot.

I've just sailed from Cardiff to Milford via Swansea and return. In that trip, all the above things have happened. And before anyone says that these are the exceptions, they werent - they were the rule.

In the moorings at Dale, the ribs always motored through rather than round, and rarely at less than what I would guess was 6 to 8 knots. The mainly young drivers of speedboats were no better, and seemed to want to handle a boat like they would their car in traffic, agressively.

Its almost as if there are two groups of boaters - raggies and some stinkies at the Nelson end who are into seamanship and good boat handling, with second group of rib/tart trap/speedboat drivers who have bought the latest toy and will use it the way they want whatever the inconvenience to others.

Why? Its bad enough having white van man on the roads without having him afloat as well. Makes you think that licensing might be a good idea - preferably like motorbike licensing where you have a power restriction at first.


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[ari]

Absolutely agree.

If only powerboaters were as aware of the rules and regs like the yachtie that (under power) tried to crowd me into the green can marker once desperate to exert his right of way. Pity he'd forgotten that coming out of port you have to read the red and green buoys the other way around and was actually trying to exert his right to the port side of the channel, not the starboard!!

Sorry pal, there good and bad on both sides of the equation, this topics been covered again and again.

Cue a whole list from everyone else of bad raggie seamanship.

<<< YAAAAWN >>>

Ari.

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[martynwhiteley]

All the licencing, or indeed training, would help little. Look at car driving.

Some people will always be arrogant, unhelpful, uncertious (not sure how to spell those words - so I can't be /forums/images/icons/wink.gif ). etc. regardless of what they drive or sail.

There is possibly some logic that could equate the size of one's boat to a tendancy to 'take no prisoners', as this goes hand in hand with fighting their way to the top in business. (I must add however, that if there is such logic, tcm must be 'the exception that proves the rule').

However, despite me having no raggie tendancies at all, I do agree that skippers of 2x350 hp diesels etc. do need to act responsibly with them, and without any training can we expect just good manners to be enough?

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[lanason]

Welcome to the Motor Boat Chat.

Your last post was all about you buying a Motor Boat - may I advise you not to do so cus the behaviour that you have noted is actually standard practise on the 'evil' side. I spent hours learning how to ignore all the proper rules.

If you sell the rag and stick you will need to spend years un learning the correct way - its a painful and indeed stressful conversion programme. There are courses but most of us learn by trial and error. It we get shouted at then were doing it right .....

All IMHO of course ......

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[oldsalt]

You forgot to mention that it's compulsory to leave your genset running whilst moored, thus depriving everyone else of sleep.......

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[robind]

Rowers on rivers

To continue this discussion a little further, has anybody ever had a problem with rowers on the rivers? or their safety boats (no wake but 15 knots of shouting snarling, postgrad, often omni directional too!) They are all highly trained are they not! so maybe training is not the answer?

Perhaps better regulation is needed instead of taking the river police off the rivers, as an anti terrorist feature, a couple of fast Gun boats could be employed along the rivers like the Thames and as part of their job they could hand out tickets to offending and offensive members of the boating community.

An official could be placed at every lock to make sure that engines are turned off, with another one to back them up in case of action. speed cameras could be established on places like Sion reach to catch the unsuspecting speed freak! The Motor Gunboat could also be used to check the license of fishemen. (Picture in your mind if you will, the matt black stealth vessel bristling with armament quietly slowing down to a stop six feet from little Jimmy and Grandad out for a sunday morning fishing, the rotary RPG turns to bear upon them and a "squeeky" womans (yes womans) voice, over the speaker system says, "OK Busters show your license or raise your hands, and be prepared to recieve a ticket" Just think of the revenue? couple that to the EA really doing their proper job of upholding the enviromental protection act, and proscecuting offenders (issuing tickets) "Oh yes" and what about a "River Community charge" £25 to promenade along on a Sunday or Saturday? Strikes me that this is the way we are heading.

With the price of Diesel rising as it is, anybody with a de-groot motor boat or similar should seriously think of fitting mast and sails ! Could they still get up the Rivers? after all people sail on the broads and get under bridges by sailing at the bridges and dropping the mast at the last minute (Wherrying) only to raise it on the other side and continue (do I hear a crash as the startled, obnoxious, loud, safety boat "cocks"( Yes! I know its not spelt like that) totally out of controll hits the bridge?)should be fun at the richmond half tide lock.

Why is it that raggies think that they have a God given right to villify the "smokies" wouldnt a polite "would you mind turning off your engine in the lock" do the trick? and help to educate those who dont know and when shaken about by (after all sailing boats are used to that ) an offending motor boat "driver`s" wake isnt shouting "ARSEHOLE" sufficient or is the use of a rapid fire paint ball gun really necessary?( used to be rotten eggs in my day, with "Go to work on an egg" written on them " cop that and go to work on that eh!" especially saved for that very purpose) I am told that better communication between boaters is needed?
Replies on a postcard please to "Dis grunt boater" ex raggie ))

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[byron]

Problem is that for every 10 competant Stinkies there's a dude who has taken all his exams but doesn't have the experience to back it up. Net result is they make everyone else be tarred with the Stinkie brush.


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[Birdseye]

Re: Rowers on rivers

"Why is it that raggies think that they have a God given right to villify the "smokies" wouldnt a polite "would you mind turning off your engine in the lock" do the trick?". No it wouldn't. Tried that several times and the most polite response was "mind your own business". Other replies were obscene, even with children present.

Yes, I have no doubt that there are badly behaved raggies, and well behaved stinkies. But my point was that there are an awful lot of floating "yobs" in power boats, particularly ribs and speedboats. I can only speculate that because these are easy to simply get aboard and drive, that they are bought by people with no real interest in the sea, no training, and no manners.

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[simon_m]

I'm sure there's more than 2 sides to any such argument. Recently we ( stinkey variety) were tied up on a pontoon up river, the local sailing club descended en masse, and promptly decided to have a game of pontoon cricket. which involved bouncing balls off any boat on the pontoon, and roaring round in tenders, and one rib making a considerable wash .. net result an hour of being bounced against the pontoon. Also see my recent posting on being bombarded by sailing dinghies. I also regularly get bounced on pontoons by motor boats of all sizes .. bad manners and ignorance of those involved.

My personal observerations are that the main source of excessive speed close to other boats appears to come from ribs, small motor boats, new boaters who don't have an interest in the rules. However we've been rocked about bigstyle by some 40+ motor boats doing 15 in an 8 zone. The solution - stricter policing by the harbour authorities? mandatory testing and licensing of all water users ? mandatory shooting of people with baseball caps on backwards ? I don't know.

I also forsee an increase in the aquatic version of road rage, as the waters get busier, bad car drivers bring their practices to the water, and people feel their 'personal space' is being encroached upon, which is very sad, as most of us I'm sure take to the water to escape the hassles of land, and try to treat everyone else with respect.

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[Doffy]

Well I'm sorry for your plight, in Holland the raggies leave there engines on in locks while I shut mine down ASAP, every yacht has to be in the lock first, every yacht can't let go when tied alongside when asked to let go, I had 6 yachts along side while waiting in the english manner? none would let go to allow me into the lock. Its amazing how fast they react when they start moving towards a lock 6 abrest.Why do yachts insist in getting in front at a bridge opening when they can make little headway against a current while motor cruisers are battling to keep a straight coarse at 1 knt
All want to go down the middle of the channel no problem there (lump of lead on Bottom) but they don't seem pleased when one runs by at speed as far to one side as possible I have a 1 m wake at cruising speed the same as a 45ft yacht at speed. Mind you all the Dutch and Belguim boys smile and wave the only ones that don't are ones with red ensigns, they ignore you as if your part of some criminal eliment. The why Oh! whys go on from both sides.
My first love is sailing, wife will not let me return till the white van driver in me goes(I love racing to win??) she hates the horns and tail.
But to be honest pass the wine over next time you meet a oposite type vessel it goes along way.

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[oldgit]

Most of the boats who give me grief are new or nearly new 35/40 ish foot whizzers from out of the posh marinas in our locality.Esp a the big Fairline driven by a moron that opened up when he was between me and a small displacement cruiser last week.Lack of judgement did not come into it.Problem seems to me to come mainly from people who have not worked their way up through the boating "ranks",but have got the cash to throw at the biggest peace of floating plastic that the finance company will allow.Without being aware of the grief their antics can cause to 99% of other river users.Simply,having not had a titchy boat,makes them unaware of the problems large amounts of wash causes.If they have worked their way up the scale well!!!.Curiously the owners of really big machines(Azi 55 etc) seem well aware of the situation.

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[robind]

Hi Doffy!
You dont use a paint ball gun then. I like the cast off anyway tactic, peniches do that in France. Why is it that we all think that Holland is the place for boating and that they can do no wrong? I suppose its that were related to William of Orange aren`t we?.

Re the Qualifications issue etc, I`m told that the new USA yachtmaster course is far better than the RYA one, is this true?

Rob

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[Davy_S]

I have to get my tuppence worth in here! After bieng a small scale stinkie for 30 years, and now a raggie owner I hate to see these continual arguments about stinkie versus raggie. Ok so up here in the north we are less crowded, but even so we get along and help oneanother where possible. I have wittnessed raggies sailing straight through fishing boats catching all the lines, to powerboats screaming through children learning to sail. This is not a raggie stinkie thing it is about idiots,licenced or not (it makes no difference). It is a sad fact of life that some people do not show consideration to others. As has been mentioned car drivers are a perfect example, got licences but still kill one and other! If we all tried to show a bit of tolerance and understanding about how different craft need to make way to keep steerage it may help. Apart from jetskiers who should be shot on sight.

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[ccscott49]

I actually think it's a north-south thing aswell, you just don't seem to get the same yahoos up here, maybe a population thing, becasuse we do have our fair share of idiot car drivers.
I'll retreat a safe distance now and don flak jacket and helmet.

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[Birdseye]

Personally, I think that martynwhiteley had part of the reason sussed - the competitiveness and agression that gets you success and the money to buy that new 45ft powerboat does not make for a relaxed and considerate approach to other water users. Perhaps thats why raggies racers, dinghy or yacht, are a common source of complaint about raggies - agression and competitiveness needed to win.

And its no coincidence that yobs and lager louts are an almost totally British phenomenon.

Maybe the answer is a law that says only ladies are allowed to handle boats within 1 mile of port. That should get rid of the testosterone! Well, usually , anyway./forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[Doffy]

I do like Holland but I do have a good friend who now lives there. Its a shame that more do not come here but the expense is to great for them, marina's who charge £20 - £35 a night put people off, in Holland the most I paid was 15 euros for electric as well.
All the dutch people I met were great.

The certs I am not up on as with all USA stuff its bigger and better, which usually rings true.

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[Dave_Snelson]

<font color=red>Its almost as if there are two groups of boaters - raggies and some stinkies at the Nelson end who are into seamanship and good boat handling,</font color=red>

You are probably more right than you think. The selfish end of boating isn't restricted to sail or power. And yes, lessons and qualifications are a good thing - but attitude is all important.

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[nicho]

Mmmm! That might well reduce the testosterone, but would raise adrenaline counts to a dangerous level!!

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[gjgm]

Thats a good point about broader experience that usually gets missed.If you havent been in danger of being bounced overboard your dinghy by wash, or bashed your head below as someone speeds thru the moorings, or tried to navigate your powerboat thru high performance racing dinghys or almost sunk in your speedboat as some 800hp roars past... then maybe you make these mistakes because you havent been on the receiving end. I ve never been on a flybridge, but I m sure the perspective of your wash looks alot different to being in a 17ft close by. There is a degree of yobishness, same as there is if you go into the local supermarket, but I m less convinced that most people causing these problems are necessarily doing it with a deliberate disregard for others discomfort . Ignorance or a misjudgment , Id say, is more common. That said, I m sure there is an element of mines bigger than yours ( and I ll prove it by kicking 250l of sea water over you)

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[Doffy]

Nowt more to say, more Gin, ??

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