90/180 and the Covid Certificate.

[BurnitBlue]

I used to think that a residence card or simply flying under the radar was a way to avoid detection of an overstay 90/180. That was true a few month ago. Today it is not. It matters not a jot whether the passport is scanned at a border even if there is no border inside Schengen. Today we have the Covid Certificate. This QR-code can be scanned before entry to countries, their pubs, cafe, or venues. We just have to hope that the information on this certificate will be destroyed after 24 hours as promised.

I still intend to attempt to sail my boat to the Caribbean but I am increasingly concerned about the Delta varient. Is this wise at this time? The recent actions of France and Greece in crossing the red line on medical permissions will indoubtedly spread in both scope and application.

 

[syvictoria]

I don't expect a bar in France (for example) to be connected to the Schengen database. Do you? Whilst I don't agree that relying on a residence card or simply flying under the radar are good ideas, I don't expect the Covid Passport to be used for 90/180 Schengen enforcement.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I don't expect a bar in France (for example) to be connected to the Schengen database. Do you? Whilst I don't agree that relying on a residence card or simply flying under the radar are good ideas, I don't expect the Covid Passport to be used for 90/180 Schengen enforcement.

Not yet and I hope never, but the fact is a universal ankle bracelet WILL be a temptation for surveillance which will be difficult for some states to ignore. It would be very easy to implement via the internet. Some medical sources say Covid will be a fact of life for many years. Do you trust governments not to abuse a system.

 

[syvictoria]

Not yet and I hope never, but the fact is a universal ankle bracelet WILL be a temptation for surveillance which will be difficult for some states to ignore. It would be very easy to implement via the internet. Some medical sources say Covid will be a fact of life for many years. Do you trust governments not to abuse a system.

I can't say that I relish the prospect of needing a 'passport' to gain access to places that I've previously been able to frequent freely, but realistically (and putting aside any propensity for Orwellian thoughts!), is the data really any more valuable or potentially open to abuse than credit and/or loyalty card information? The Track & Trace apps on our phones arguably present more (or certainly, as much) of a risk, I would say.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I can't say that I relish the prospect of needing a 'passport' to gain access to places that I've previously been able to frequent freely, but realistically (and putting aside any propensity for Orwellian thoughts!), is the data really any more valuable or potentially open to abuse than credit and/or loyalty card information? The Track & Trace apps on our phones arguably present more (or certainly, as much) of a risk, I would say.

I think you are being deliberately very naive. 1984 has been and gone and all data about a person is already stored on some data base. With on-line, on the go, scanned QR-code we are in a totally different ball park. When the Police or Government know where you are, where you have been, what sort of place you were in, how long you were there, how much you spent etc. And when this real-time info is added to street cameras, face recognition, debit cards, traffic cameras you could accidentally fit into a scenario as a person of interest even if innocent.

If this does not frighten you than I wonder what would. My concern is that if I was outside the 90 day limit it would be impossible for me to use my wits and talk my way out of it.

Anyway, that's it from me. If you are happy with this then I wish you well.

 

[syvictoria]

I think you are being deliberately very naive. 1984 has been and gone and all data about a person is already stored on some data base. With on-line, on the go, scanned QR-code we are in a totally different ball park. When the Police or Government know where you are, where you have been, what sort of place you were in, how long you were there, how much you spent etc. And when this real-time info is added to street cameras, face recognition, debit cards, traffic cameras you could accidentally fit into a scenario as a person of interest even if innocent.

If this does not frighten you than I wonder what would. My concern is that if I was outside the 90 day limit it would be impossible for me to use my wits and talk my way out of it.

Anyway, that's it from me. If you are happy with this then I wish you well.

I don't feel that the Covid Passport really presents a new or greatly increased threat, no. As you've demonstrated above, the authorities already have more than enough tools in their arsenal to know what we're doing and where we've been.

What specific additional information do you believe the use of a Covid Passport will generate/record above, for example, the current Track & Trace app?

As an aside, I read the other day that the EU are considering a ban (temporary at least) on the use of facial recognition in public areas. This I wholly support.

 

[nortada]

An interesting discussion with equally valid points of view.

Long before the Covid Passport existed the authorities had the potential to track anybody and get a complete profile on them.

I anticipate that the Covid Passport will be a short lived phenomenon. Once sufficient people have got immunity from vaccination or having had Covid, just like flu, Covid will come and go but have little impact on society in general. Details of vaccinations may be included on national passports for international travel and vaccination certificates will be required for places of high risk (yellow fever etc.) - no change there.

The vulnerable will be offered a combined flu and Covid jab at the onset of winter and that will be that.

Hard to put a timescale on the life of Covid passports but I would be surprised if they were still in existence 5 years hence.

 

[BurnitBlue]

OK svvictoria i did say I would not contribute further to this thread because i think it is subjective. However you asked a good question in wondering why I think QR-code is different. It is because it is a on-line, on the go identification system that has an immediacy to it. Bear with me, suppose a crime is committed in a certsin area. All it needs is for the authorities to access all the shops, bars, venues etc to see who was in that area at that time. They can do this with the right software. If someone is recognised as a possible suspect they have his full name to access the various data bases. This would normally be impossible to get any usefull infomation from the database unless it can be supplied with a name. They now have a name. In other words the QR-code is the glue that can bring all info on the other data bases together within seconds. They can hit the ground running. And because it is not perfect they can get it wrong. I would need a ten page essay to explain what I mean so please extrapolate. Briefly QR-code is the "The one ring that rules all and binds them".

Think on this. Every government stated completely and totally that they would NOT implement this QR-code. Every one are now peddling backwards in unison. France and Greece have even gone a step further. Sorry if you still don't understand my reasons. To me they are quite clear. This is not a Covid thing. It is a pure power grab.

 

[nortada]

OK svvictoria i did say I would not contribute further to this thread because i think it is subjective. However you asked a good question in wondering why I think QR-code is different. It is because it is a on-line, on the go identification system that has an immediacy to it. Bear with me, suppose a crime is committed in a certsin area. All it needs is for the authorities to access all the shops, bars, venues etc to see who was in that area at that time. They can do this with the right software. If someone is recognised as a possible suspect they have his full name to access the various data bases. This would normally be impossible to get any usefull infomation from the database unless it can be supplied with a name. They now have a name. In other words the QR-code is the glue that can bring all info on the other data bases together within seconds. They can hit the ground running. And because it is not perfect they can get it wrong. I would need a ten page essay to explain what I mean so please extrapolate. Briefly QR-code is the "The one ring that rules all and binds them".

Think on this. Every government stated completely and totally that they would NOT implement this QR-code. Every one are now peddling backwards in unison. France and Greece have even gone a step further. Sorry if you still don't understand my reasons. To me they are quite clear. This is not a Covid thing. It is a pure power grab.

Interesting and I think this must be a subjective discussion.

Whatever, QR signatures are not just confined to Covid Passports. The EU Biometric Residency Permit, a permanent fixture is QR-coded and usage is increasing across the board.

Whether we like it or not, data collection on individuals will be an increasing fact of life.

Whilst, it makes me uneasy, provided I am about my lawful business, I find it hard to construct a case against it.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I find it easy to construct a reason against it. Because it flies in the face of everything I find interesting in a free life. Chaos. I get up in the morning and anything is possible. I could read about a bank robbery where the crook gets away. Or he could get caught. I could find a ten pound note on the bus and stuff it in my pocket or hand it to the driver.

The more control society has over everyone, the less surprise an individual is allowed to spring on anyone. Life will start to follow ready programmed tracks like a train. OK i will occasionally suffer from crime but I would prefer the uncertainty. The whole purpose of prison is to remove all decisions from the prisoner as a punishment. When he gets up, when he can excercise and so on. If life became so controlled and perfect our ancesters would be puzzled when they dig up the artifacts of our civilization. Why did they die out, they seemed to have it all.

I think I will arrange for an explanetry note in my coffin. "In case you are wondering, this civilization died out because of bloody boredom caused by minute control of everyday life."

 

[syvictoria]

I wonder if our difference of perspective perhaps stems from a difference of systems currently in place in our respective home countries, rather than any naivety or actual difference of opinion when it comes to the erosion of our freedoms and/or additional control by the state? Here in England we are already expected to check into venues via the NHS Track & Trace app (or a paper form), and hence a Covid Passport essentially adds little more to the system in terms of data provided/recorded. Is there not a similar system in place in Sweden at present?

 

[BurnitBlue]

I wonder if our difference of perspective perhaps stems from a difference of systems currently in place in our respective home countries, rather than any naivety or actual difference of opinion when it comes to the erosion of our freedoms and/or additional control by the state? Here in England we are already expected to check into venues via the NHS Track & Trace app (or a paper form), and hence a Covid Passport essentially adds little more to the system in terms of data provided/recorded. Is there not a similar system in place in Sweden at present?

You are correct. The difference between us is largely perspective. There has never been any directives for anyone here in Sweden. There are no tracker apps. Everything has operated normally with only social distancing. The only attack on our freedom comes from the EU with this QR-thing. It is not used in Sweden. There was a short period a month ago where shops limited their customers in the shop depending on floor space. That did not last long, maybe a week or two, before it was totally ignored. I appear to be the only person in Sweden that owns a proper face mask. It is a bit grubby at the moment from being in my pocket all the time.

Honestly the only indication of the pandemic here is on the buses. We have had free bus rides for nearly two years because the front door of the bus has been closed preventing access to the electronic card reader, passengers enter the bus via the back door. Sit down, leave the driver to just drive the bus. Ring the bell when you want to get off.

So, yes, the only part of our lives which come in contact with the downside of the pandemic is the plf form and getting on a plane at the airport. Everything else is life as before. I have had to think hard while writing this as I had to search for any impact and frankly you are correct there is none so my perspective must be different than yours.

 

[BurnitBlue]

As an edit to the above, I have just this minute, removed the facemask from my jacket pocket and put it in my suitcase along with the unopened packet of 50 facemasks i got from the chemist last year. I leave for Greece soon and I don't want to forget them. I know they are required in Greece. I have the Covid app for full 2 dose vaccination.

I have also heard on the news a few hours ago that there are small protests in Greece about the QR-code. It seems Greeks spend some time in coffee cafe's discussing mandatory vaccinations. And they are not happy.

Edit to add the word facemask to the packet of 50 comment. And also to downplay the news about big riots in Greece. This morning the news is about small protests.

 

[dslittle]

It is because it is a on-line, on the go identification system that has an immediacy to it. Bear with me, suppose a crime is committed in a certsin area. All it needs is for the authorities to access all the shops, bars, venues etc to see who was in that area at that time. They can do this with the right software. If someone is recognised as a possible suspect they have his full name to access the various data bases. This would normally be impossible to get any usefull infomation from the database unless it can be supplied with a name. They now have a name. In other words the QR-code is the glue that can bring all info on the other data bases together within seconds. They can hit the ground running.

I don’t want to alarm you or anyone else BUT you are being quite naive. I’m afraid that there are a number of ways to obtain real time information on persons of interest LONG before QR codes existed.
However I would add that ‘innocent’ members of the public need not worry as there is not enough time to persecute them AND the legal safeguards are quite onerous.
Bottom line, if you haven’t done anything wrong, no one is going to be in the least bit interested in you…

 

[BurnitBlue]

I don’t want to alarm you or anyone else BUT you are being quite naive. I’m afraid that there are a number of ways to obtain real time information on persons of interest LONG before QR codes existed.
However I would add that ‘innocent’ members of the public need not worry as there is not enough time to persecute them AND the legal safeguards are quite onerous.
Bottom line, if you haven’t done anything wrong, no one is going to be in the least bit interested in you…

I know all that for goodness sake. My point is that the QR-code points the finger (so to speak) at an individual name so that a search of those databases can start. Without that name a search of any database would NOT produce a name as a product of that search. It would be a shot in the dark. Without a name to aim at a search of a database would not be specific enough to annoy anyone. Why do you think so many people are against the QR-code?

 

[BurnitBlue]

Put it this way. The QR-code can be used as a movement tracker device. If a person was in an area where an anti-government rally took place the government would have no idea if that particular person was there or even who was there. Cameras produce a "face" not a name. A QR-code can do that by inspection of entrance scans to local cafe, pub, venue, bus, train station wherever a scanner is a requirement to enter. If an innocent person was by chance just passing through, he would still be a person of interest and the databases could make a specific search on his name. Circumstantial evidence can do the rest.

This is my last word on this. If you still do not get it and appreciate the danger that an implicit universal ankle bracelet produces then everyones freedom is at severe risk. You are using existant data bases as the boiling frog.

 

[syvictoria]

A QR code is just a barcode. It simply provides static information, which in turn can be linked to dynamic information/a database, etc. All of the other technologies mentioned earlier in this thread can also easily be linked to names.

 

[syvictoria]

Put it this way. The QR-code can be used as a movement tracker device. If a person was in an area where an anti-government rally took place the government would have no idea if that particular person was there or even who was there. Cameras produce a "face" not a name. A QR-code can do that by inspection of entrance scans to local cafe, pub, venue, bus, train station wherever a scanner is a requirement to enter. If an innocent person was by chance just passing through, he would still be a person of interest and the databases could make a specific search on his name. Circumstantial evidence can do the rest.

This is my last word on this. If you still do not get it and appreciate the danger that an implicit universal ankle bracelet produces then everyones freedom is at severe risk. You are using existant data bases as the boiling frog.

In the above scenario, the mobile phone in your pocket would I suspect provide far more information than a QR cide on a piece of paper or in an app! Do you carry a phone? If so, I'm afraid that you are already traceable almost all of the time.

 

[Lightwave395]

Seems I've stumbled into the paranoia thread !

Perhaps the best answer for those concerned about big brother is don't use a mobile phone, or only turn it on briefly when you make a phone call

 

[dslittle]

Put it this way. The QR-code can be used as a movement tracker device. If a person was in an area where an anti-government rally took place the government would have no idea if that particular person was there or even who was there. Cameras produce a "face" not a name. If an innocent person was by chance just passing through, he would still be a person of interest and the databases could make a specific search on his name. Circumstantial evidence can do the rest.

If you have a smartphone, I suggest that you have a look through your photos using the search function for a particular face— you might be surprised to find that your ‘basic’ facial recognition software is quite good.
I assume that you have a passport /driving licence/ID document and supplied photos when there were issued. Names follow very quickly.
It is possible (but VERY) hard to ‘live under the radar’ if you don’t check into a Country, ONLY use cash (but not ATMs), never get ill, use an alias, don’t post on social websites (unless you are trusting of your VPN), etc, etc. Believe me it’s not easy.
Again I’ll tell you that innocent people are of NO interest to the ’Authorities’. The main drive in any investigation is to eliminate (on paper not physically…) POIs so that the investigation can be completed. The less POIs the better.
Go out, relax and enjoy yourself (but don’t tell them your name Pike…)