270ah DIY LiFePO4 build

[Poey50]

New up date for them worried about charging .
First note we are in the Med where there more sun shine this time of year then back in the UK and my PV is 750W
We just done a 9 days on the hook and used the batteries as if we was on shore power.

Micro wave, kettle,electric Rad heater on at times, induction hob, charging for PC, ipad,phone, hot water heater .
On very cloudy days we managed to get the batteries back up enough for them to be used the following day , it taken almost two good days of Partly sun shine to get them up to 95% after that, has they where very low .

On the move we had to turn off the b2b by late morning and half the panels,
there was more going in then we could ever take out and because the engine was running we couldn't use power on the hot water heater .

In reality in the summer months if we wasn't using the electric Rad heater I say we could managed three very cloudy days before having to turn on the Gen to top up.
One sunny day between cloudy days and we back where we started from.

So for tho who going to use lithium for weekend and a few weeks away , with the help of panels , I would hold off buy any expenses alternator/Regulator until you used them for a while , you probably find with a bit of management you won't need them.

My view on our 400 ah pack , so far very happy and as a full time liveabourd its made life a lot more comfortable, saving fuel on the Gen , cut down on noise and pollution as well as gas, although it come with a price to pay in the cost of buying and building them.

Good to hear your installation is working out for you, Vic. I wasn't going to upgrade our alternator but instead try a B2B for a year or two and then decide. Our alternator regulator failing in the summer (and no replacement available) meant I had to replace the alternator so it made sense to bite the bullet and go for an expensive upgrade of Balmar alternator, external regulator and serpentine belt and pulley upgrade. Covid has meant that I haven't yet had a chance to get the benefit but, on a relatively small boat (32 feet) with limited solar and no space or inclination to get a generator, the fact that I can get 80-90ah into the batteries if needed by the time I have motored out of our harbour is going to be a big help.

I'm envious that you are able to use yours. The best I can do is to text mine!

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think if it was me I do the same , if the reg is US ,
But I just tho I push the point over and maybe it save people some money ,
I know the whole project cost enough without add to it if there no need.

Just so people know my alternator is 50A and using the Victron B2B Orion my top is around 25A , I haven't seen 30A
even tho it a 30A b2b

 

[Jokani]

Could someone give me a quick sanity check on a LifePO4 build and BMS.

Sourcing batteries from here, mainly as it's Amazon with free UK delivery:

FZXBAG 200AH 3.2V Lithium Iron Phosphate Lithium Ion Battery Household Power Energy Output (Size : 4pcs): Amazon.co.uk: Kitchen & Home

And this BMS as it's claimed to have a tight integration with Victron

Application examples | EMUS BMS

Thinking of a either 8 or 12 cells.

The batteries and BMS look compatible?

 

[Bouba]

This is a very impressive thread

 

[Poey50]

This is a very impressive thread

Did you read the whole thing? It makes War and Peace look like a novella.

 

[Poey50]

Could someone give me a quick sanity check on a LifePO4 build and BMS.

Sourcing batteries from here, mainly as it's Amazon with free UK delivery:

FZXBAG 200AH 3.2V Lithium Iron Phosphate Lithium Ion Battery Household Power Energy Output (Size : 4pcs): Amazon.co.uk: Kitchen & Home

And this BMS as it's claimed to have a tight integration with Victron

Application examples | EMUS BMS

Thinking of a either 8 or 12 cells.

The batteries and BMS look compatible?

As you aware it is a Chinese seller selling through Amazon. That's about 30 - 50% more expensive for aluminium cased prismatic cells that you would expect to buy by directly importing but with Brexit and the additional protection from Amazon that may be a price worth paying. I like the look of the terminals which look more substantial with their fixed studs than the usual M6 tapped holes into aluminium.

I don't know that BMS but it is the total system that needs to be assessed and I think is best judged against Nordkyn's 5 principles of design that are found on the opening post of this thread.

 

[Bouba]

Did you read the whole thing? It makes War and Peace look like a novella.

I read it when it first started and am just catching up now. But, I have to be honest, a lot is beyond my ken

 

[sailaboutvic]

My only comment is their advertising, it states you can fit them any way including up side down most company recommended to fit them standing up right as the safely valve are on the top .
Also they say the batteries are balance , considering most lithium arrive about 50% soc and batteries tend to start drifting from each other once they nearly full , I would take that at a pinch of salt .
Micheal in Germany who I got mine from is selling Eve cells 105 ah for 81 euros people who been in touch with him given my name have good some good discount ,

Only other thing I would say , they are Alui cells if you going to use them on a sailing boat i would be at looking at protecting each cell from rubbing with each other .

 

[Jokani]

Micheal in Germany who I got mine from is selling Eve cells 105 ah for 81 euros people who been in touch with him given my name have good some good discount ,

Hi Vic, could you let me have the contact details for Micheal? The Eve's sound interesting!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Vic, could you let me have the contact details for Micheal? The Eve's sound interesting!

Its lithium power store you can check out his batteries on line but I suggestion you email him and tell him Vic in Sicily has recommended him and said that way he do you a deal you should get a better price then his web site that way especially if you can add some thing on to the order, I got my BMS and the b2b off him too email
michael.schmidt@lithium-powerstore.de
No connection just a happy customer.

 

[mitiempo]

Yes, a long thread and very interesting. I am also in reading a thread on Cruisers Forum that is 502 pages long @ 15 posts per page so you have a ways to go yet for a record.

I am starting to build a system for my CS27. In the middle of an extensive refit so I don't have to match anything I have, all will be new.

I have the Electrodacus BMS (SBMS0) and am looking at various options for cells. I have decided I do not want aluminum cells on a boat so it will be plastic. Most likely Calb, either 3P4S with 100 AH cells or 2P4S with 180 AH cells.

Solar controller will be Victron which with the addition of VE Direct cable can be turned off by the BMS.
Orion B2B from the start battery (Fla) to the bank will take care of alternator charging without the expense of Balmar alt and MC-614 reg.
Inverter will be Victron, probably 1200 watts which is all I'll need.
Shore power charger will be Victron and again can be turned off by the BMS.

My loads are not that great and most charging will be solar, probably about 300 watts on a stern arch.

My loads are nav (plotter and AIS), Engel fridge and Lewmar windlass. Additionally there is a Spectra watermaker using 9 or 18 amps - 2 pumps used either together or individually for 7 or 14 gallons per hour. Also the usual led lights and usb chargers etc.

The Electrodacus BMS is interesting mainly in that the current does not run through it. It controls load and charge sources independently instead. Also it functions as a battery monitor - actually does much more than a Victron BMV can. It also has data logging and passive cell balancing. It's defaults are 3.55 charging (14.2) and 2.8 discharging (11.2) but these can be changed at will - 13.8 charge limit for example.

I will post when I get farther along in my build. Prices won't be relevant though because I am on Canada's west coast (Victoria) and they won't make sense to most here.
The Electrodacus cost $159 Cdn for interest though - about 80pounds I think.

 

[Poey50]

Yes, a long thread and very interesting. I am also in reading a thread on Cruisers Forum that is 502 pages long @ 15 posts per page so you have a ways to go yet for a record.

I am starting to build a system for my CS27. In the middle of an extensive refit so I don't have to match anything I have, all will be new.

I have the Electrodacus BMS (SBMS0) and am looking at various options for cells. I have decided I do not want aluminum cells on a boat so it will be plastic. Most likely Calb, either 3P4S with 100 AH cells or 2P4S with 180 AH cells.

Solar controller will be Victron which with the addition of VE Direct cable can be turned off by the BMS.
Orion B2B from the start battery (Fla) to the bank will take care of alternator charging without the expense of Balmar alt and MC-614 reg.
Inverter will be Victron, probably 1200 watts which is all I'll need.
Shore power charger will be Victron and again can be turned off by the BMS.

My loads are not that great and most charging will be solar, probably about 300 watts on a stern arch.

My loads are nav (plotter and AIS), Engel fridge and Lewmar windlass. Additionally there is a Spectra watermaker using 9 or 18 amps - 2 pumps used either together or individually for 7 or 14 gallons per hour. Also the usual led lights and usb chargers etc.

The Electrodacus BMS is interesting mainly in that the current does not run through it. It controls load and charge sources independently instead. Also it functions as a battery monitor - actually does much more than a Victron BMV can. It also has data logging and passive cell balancing. It's defaults are 3.55 charging (14.2) and 2.8 discharging (11.2) but these can be changed at will - 13.8 charge limit for example.

I will post when I get farther along in my build. Prices won't be relevant though because I am on Canada's west coast (Victoria) and they won't make sense to most here.
The Electrodacus cost $159 Cdn for interest though - about 80pounds I think.

Sounds like a good system. Let us know how you get on with the Electrodacus.

 

[Kelpie]

I heard about the Electrodacus, sounds interesting but I came away thinking you'd need to be an electrical engineer to understand it all.
I'm going to go with the Overkill instead, it's fairly basic but sounds like a step up from Daly.

 

[mitiempo]

Electrodacus is easy to understand. Will's video explains all of it really.

As I posted the current does not go through the BMS, it controls all charge and load sources with external wires. Good for any size system. Works very well with Victron equipment. Visual cell level and balancing display. Fully adjustable for top and bottom voltages. Wifi module an option. As a battery monitor it tells you more than a Victron BMV-712.

It's very well made.

Good threads on DIY Solar forum: Beginner's Guide to ElectroDacus (Download button right side of page)
Search results for query: electrodacus

If you match solar panels to the battery bank (24 volt nominal panel for a 24 volt bank for example) with the DSSRs you can use an array of up to 18 kilowatt. This applies mostly to off grid use. I will be using Victron MPPT.

If you're off grid there are diversion modules available as well. Dacian (designer and builder) lives off grid in Saskatchewan and heats his house and water with these.

He also is very responsive to emails.

I first saw Will's video and it made more sense to me than a BMS that passes current. A bit more research and I purchased one. Haven't really heard anything bad about it. I found it easy to understand from the first viewing of Will's video.

 

[Kelpie]

Thanks, I will have another go at getting my head around it.
I had it in my head that it works best with smart equipment. As I understand it, I'd have to hook it up to relays to shut off things like my fridge, cabin lights, and the big cheap inverter, so it starts to sound a bit more involved than a conventional BMS.
I've got a million things to plan just now and the lithium project is way down the list... simplicity seems very desirable...

 

[mitiempo]

Thanks, I will have another go at getting my head around it.
I had it in my head that it works best with smart equipment. As I understand it, I'd have to hook it up to relays to shut off things like my fridge, cabin lights, and the big cheap inverter, so it starts to sound a bit more involved than a conventional BMS.
I've got a million things to plan just now and the lithium project is way down the list... simplicity seems very desirable...

A Victron Battery Protect can be switched by the BMS. Simple and not very expensive. Available up to 220 amp rating (600 amps for 30 seconds).
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Battery-Protect-65-A--100-A--220-A-EN.pdf

The inverter can be triggered remotely by the BMS. If it has a SPST on/off switch it is easy, just requires a bit of solder like Will shows in his video. Victron inverters can be triggered easier as they are designed for this.

 

[pcatterall]

Did you read the whole thing? It makes War and Peace look like a novella.

I followed all the original set up with interest and all/most of the following related material. With time/expertise/costs changing even as the story unfolded it would be a confusing chore to read it all through from scratch.
An up to date summary would be a great and useful document for those considering moving over. ( Vic's contribution is always appreciated!)

 

[Poey50]

I followed all the original set up with interest and all/most of the following related material. With time/expertise/costs changing even as the story unfolded it would be a confusing chore to read it all through from scratch.
An up to date summary would be a great and useful document for those considering moving over. ( Vic's contribution is always appreciated!)

You raise an interesting point - long threads can be a problem. I did embark on one of the mammoth Cruisers Forum threads and lost the will to live, not just through the length but through unfamiliarity with the terms and concepts. This is why I began this thread with some basic (although not simple) texts and practical details of the build with plenty of photos. The difficulty with.a summary is that it assumes a degree of consensus that doesn't yet exist and can reduce meaningful complexity, whereas a variety of approaches is possible for a safe system. On the other hand safe practices are beginning to emerge; LFP has been around for a while now and people learn from each other, and there are some summaries of these. I referred earlier in the thread to a summary sheet on top-balancing produced by 'FilterGuy' available on Will Prowse's DIYSolar forum, which is an excellent example of this.

Complexity of terms is tricky. I opted for the 123Smart BMS largely because it was one of the few systems I thought I could fully understand. Like others, I don't have an electronics background and, while I'm willing to put in the hours, there is a limit. If Electrodacus, REC, and Orion pitched their information at a more basic level then I suspect they will find a bigger market.

But there is another problem which is to make it all look too simple. On the Lithium Batteries on a Boat Facebook Group there are regular posts from people who have bought their lithium drop-ins and are now wondering what to do with them. This week someone was thrilled to discover their battery had remained apparently fully charged all winter until it was gently pointed out that to stay at full charge is not kind to LFP. Last year there was a heartfelt series of posts from someone stuck in the Philippines trying to get home to New Zealand because of the pandemic. His LFP system had been professionally installed and he knew little about it and it was not holding charge. This was extremely stressful for him and his family until several people painstakingly talked him through his system and provided solutions.

I had a couple of years obsessed with mountain bike downhill trails. These are graded for difficulty like ski runs but they always put the most difficult feature at the start - usually a scary looking gap jump - the rest is more straightforward. Putting off those who aren't ready to first build up their knowledge may not be a bad thing.

 

[sailaboutvic]

We been using our cells for three months now full time without any shore power .
The biggest consumer has been our electric oil filled radiator 2200w full on .
After that its the kettle, hob,microwave, electric blanket ( no comments please) fidge, Freezer ,
Then the normal boat stuff, so far so good we very happy with our 8x200 Calbs cells.
I never been one to buy something that's not quite what I expected and mislead other so not to make myself look a prat , we all make mistakes.
So here my take .

The Calbs cell are doing what they should , I very happy I didn't buy the aluminium cells especially now there been reports that some are getting a reading from out side the cells under the thin cover ,
If people are using these cells they really need to insulation between cells if they going to use them on a boat, , well that's my option .
Calbs cells are plastic M8 thread and nice to hold they feel solid, I could had gone for Wilson cell probably the best cells of all but much more .
I didn't use the bars that came with the cell but use 1/2 copper pipe flatten again I didn't use the bolts, brought M8 bolts cut the head off and cut a groove on the top.

The BMS 123 smart which I'm using , not sure I would use it again , it works fine but there is a down side to it .
First most of us novices are learning as we go alone the 123 bms for the amount iit cost, not cheap by no means, is a bit of a heath Robinson affair , first you have to drill out the holes to fit the studs then you have to solder wires on the fragile module which have to be handle with care ,
once fitted you then have to join all module together with a tiny wire by pushing each wire in a hole .
I have concern with that , all the slaming from a sailing yacht are any of these wires going to pop out.
Plus these are passive balance which mean they just burn off rather then pass voltage from cell to another.
Also the 123 is just a bms it don't protect the batteries,, you need to fit external relay to the 123 to do that, at another cost.
By the time you did all that you looking at €450

We also had a problem with the end board modules where the load switching relay stopped working, communications with smart didn't get very far , they said it couldn't be repair as they don't have the part and suggested finding an old type radio shack shop, only other thing they could offer was to buy a new end modules 150€ .

Putting that all to one side , the App works well and give you good info on all your cells , you can turn off the external relay within the app to work on the batteries if you need to .
Most of the setting are straight forwards except the balance voltage where that can only be done on the module , not the easiest to do unless you have good eye sight and its a bit fiddly.

Lots of good info on lithium on the net now but also lots of bad stuff from people who think they know it all ,
Mine bank is set to charge to 14v and odd time ( once a month) I alter that to 14.1v and on days where I'm not taken much out its set to 13.8v,
at 14.1v the cells are within 0.01 after that the cells will start to stray a bit , below 14.1v there nothing in it..


Smart 123 says 13.8v is 95% I'm not sure I agree with that probably 14 is more like it but hey what do I know .

What ever way you look at it there well below 100% SOC .
Cells are set to Maxv 3.6v minv 3v there not got anywhere near that so far
The most they have drop to is 40% soc which mean we used 200ah if you take into account their are charge to 90%.

We managed three days of cloudy over cast weather without worring about charging,
With 750w pv a good day of sun and they up there again , yes we do manage them if we know we in for some days of overcast weather.
Latery with more longer days we finding we having to find ways to use up power like the water heater,

Victron Mppt.
These are set to Abs 14v float 13.5v

Victron B2B
We had a 10 day cruise a few weeks back the B2B is set to 13.8v then to float at 13.5v
We found we turning to B2B off as the panels doing all the charging , in darkness if motoring we using the B2B .

Relay we fittered an 250A gruner relay and a bi stable latching control this connected to the bms switching relay turn relay off if the V max or V min is reached.

Conclusion

The 8 cells fit into a smaller space then my 4 trojan, I can even now put a starter battery next to them , its much lighter . Easy to control .
When we drawing 2200w the voltage drop to 13,1v and sit there , the only time I seen the voltage drop to 12.9v was when the batteries was at 60% soc and we where drawing an heavy load of 2000w
Balance seen to be about right staying within 0.01 as I said my only concern is the small wires to each module.

As many know we are full time cruisers 400ah seen to be about right for what we need ,
For most weekend sailors personally 200Ah would be ampfull most would probably get away with 100 ah plus a starter battery.

Cost .
My setup have cost me just over 2.1k thats the cells b2b,relay, bms and a second end board,
There was also some new cables , copper tube and bolts.
The cells was the biggest cost at €1500 which after trying to import them from China ended up buying from Germany at roughly €250 more but the deal I did buying most of the stuff from one dealer didn't turn out too bad.
As a liveaboard I think the investment is worth it.

Sorry its long posting ,

 

[Poey50]

We been using our cells for three months now full time without any shore power .
The biggest consumer has been our electric oil filled radiator 2200w full on .
After that its the kettle, hob,microwave, electric blanket ( no comments please) fidge, Freezer ,
Then the normal boat stuff, so far so good we very happy with our 8x200 Calbs cells.
I never been one to buy something that's not quite what I expected and mislead other so not to make myself look a prat , we all make mistakes.
So here my take .

The Calbs cell are doing what they should , I very happy I didn't buy the aluminium cells especially now there been reports that some are getting a reading from out side the cells under the thin cover ,
If people are using these cells they really need to insulation between cells if they going to use them on a boat, , well that's my option .
Calbs cells are plastic M8 thread and nice to hold they feel solid, I could had gone for Wilson cell probably the best cells of all but much more .
I didn't use the bars that came with the cell but use 1/2 copper pipe flatten again I didn't use the bolts, brought M8 bolts cut the head off and cut a groove on the top.

The BMS 123 smart which I'm using , not sure I would use it again , it works fine but there is a down side to it .
First most of us novices are learning as we go alone the 123 bms for the amount iit cost, not cheap by no means, is a bit of a heath Robinson affair , first you have to drill out the holes to fit the studs then you have to solder wires on the fragile module which have to be handle with care ,
once fitted you then have to join all module together with a tiny wire by pushing each wire in a hole .
I have concern with that , all the slaming from a sailing yacht are any of these wires going to pop out.
Plus these are passive balance which mean they just burn off rather then pass voltage from cell to another.
Also the 123 is just a bms it don't protect the batteries,, you need to fit external relay to the 123 to do that, at another cost.
By the time you did all that you looking at €450

We also had a problem with the end board modules where the load switching relay stopped working, communications with smart didn't get very far , they said it couldn't be repair as they don't have the part and suggested finding an old type radio shack shop, only other thing they could offer was to buy a new end modules 150€ .

Putting that all to one side , the App works well and give you good info on all your cells , you can turn off the external relay within the app to work on the batteries if you need to .
Most of the setting are straight forwards except the balance voltage where that can only be done on the module , not the easiest to do unless you have good eye sight and its a bit fiddly.

Lots of good info on lithium on the net now but also lots of bad stuff from people who think they know it all ,
Mine bank is set to charge to 14v and odd time ( once a month) I alter that to 14.1v and on days where I'm not taken much out its set to 13.8v,
at 14.1v the cells are within 0.01 after that the cells will start to stray a bit , below 14.1v there nothing in it..


Smart 123 says 13.8v is 95% I'm not sure I agree with that probably 14 is more like it but hey what do I know .

What ever way you look at it there well below 100% SOC .
Cells are set to Maxv 3.6v minv 3v there not got anywhere near that so far
The most they have drop to is 40% soc which mean we used 200ah if you take into account their are charge to 90%.

We managed three days of cloudy over cast weather without worring about charging,
With 750w pv a good day of sun and they up there again , yes we do manage them if we know we in for some days of overcast weather.
Latery with more longer days we finding we having to find ways to use up power like the water heater,

Victron Mppt.
These are set to Abs 14v float 13.5v

Victron B2B
We had a 10 day cruise a few weeks back the B2B is set to 13.8v then to float at 13.5v
We found we turning to B2B off as the panels doing all the charging , in darkness if motoring we using the B2B .

Relay we fittered an 250A gruner relay and a bi stable latching control this connected to the bms switching relay turn relay off if the V max or V min is reached.

Conclusion

The 8 cells fit into a smaller space then my 4 trojan, I can even now put a starter battery next to them , its much lighter . Easy to control .
When we drawing 2200w the voltage drop to 13,1v and sit there , the only time I seen the voltage drop to 12.9v was when the batteries was at 60% soc and we where drawing an heavy load of 2000w
Balance seen to be about right staying within 0.01 as I said my only concern is the small wires to each module.

As many know we are full time cruisers 400ah seen to be about right for what we need ,
For most weekend sailors personally 200Ah would be ampfull most would probably get away with 100 ah plus a starter battery.

Cost .
My setup have cost me just over 2.1k thats the cells b2b,relay, bms and a second end board,
There was also some new cables , copper tube and bolts.
The cells was the biggest cost at €1500 which after trying to import them from China ended up buying from Germany at roughly €250 more but the deal I did buying most of the stuff from one dealer didn't turn out too bad.
As a liveaboard I think the investment is worth it.

Sorry its long posting ,

Not too long as as far as I'm concerned. Vic. Very helpful in fact. Your whole approach to the LFP conversion has been a great example, I think. You did some serious research, made your own choices, gave honest reports on your progress and sought help when there were problems and have given balanced feedback on your system.