X-Yachts X-43 - Opinions As A Performance Live-Aboard Cruiser?

[E39mad]

It's a shame there is isn't a modern Centurion model at around 43/44 feet. Always thought they were excellent quality sail boats with a good turn of speed. There are 40/41 footers if that's large enough.

Edit - I see early 2000's Swan 45's are close to the budget:

2004 Nautor Swan Swan 45 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

 

[flaming]

I think you get how I feel about the performance - it is a kind of aesthetic need for me. I'm not saying I need full race performance - an X-43 would be fine. I can imagine myself helming that upwind in 12kts with a big smile on my face.

Exactly how I feel. I've sailed quite a few different boats. I cannot imagine ever being happy with one that I didn't want to helm upwind in flat water and a nice 12 knots.

I suspect the XC42 wouldn't be as dumpy as the Oyster, but not as nice as the X43...

 

[Laser310]

It's a shame there is isn't a modern Centurion model at around 43/44 feet. Always thought they were excellent quality sail boats with a good turn of speed. There are 40/41 footers if that's large enough.

Edit - I see early 2000's Swan 45's are close to the budget:

2004 Nautor Swan Swan 45 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

It's not really in the budget which would be low € 200K range. The XC 42 was suggested, and i discussed it more in a academic sense...

quite a few X-43 have sold below € 200k

The Swan 45 is an excellent boat - I have raced on them - modified with a fixed sprit, and a huge masthead asym, it really goes. A great ocean racing boat.

They do draw 9ft though...

They might also be a bit powered up for a couple to cruise, even for my taste.

I have heard of some Swan 45's trading privately at much lower prices than that listing - they suffer on the market a bit for being too racy for cruising, and are getting a bit old for racers who can afford to campaign a yacht like that seriously.

 

[dunedin]

So but they are still a big compromise - they are cruiser-racers which emphasize speed at the expense of comfort.

Look whenever the OP wants to do it's his choice. I just think that any boat with even a sniff of racing in it's DNA invariably makes a poor choice as a cruiser.

Anyway that's my 2 cents.

I suspect you have never sailed or stayed on board an X-43 or similar X-Yacht. Probably more comfortable interior than most AWB cruisers, and certainly more solid wood and seagoing details.

 

[Resolution]

One of the senior members of my club had a super X-43 called Snow Leopard for many years and sailed it a lot. We had a wonderful season sailing in company with him in the Stockholm archipelago. He sold the boat a couple of years ago. This is his comment on your request:

"We sailed 18,000 miles in France, Scotland, England and the Baltic, often with friends, rarely more than 4 on board except once in an emergency we had nine for a day and a night in Scotland. A crowd!

The X-43 is a lovely boat but in my view she is not a good cruising yacht. She is quick, responsive and comfortable inside. I think she was the last X-yacht iteration of the cruiser-racer before they split into performance and cruising.

Funnily enough I think that they discovered eventually that Arcona were eating their lunch as a result so they now do a sort of hybrid again in the new range. There’s a good reason why Arcona are not much on the second hand market.

Snow Leopard was an early hull of 169 built between 2003 and 2010 so some of the irritating stuff may well have been improved in later iterations. Our teak deck lasted less than seven years before gradually coming un-glued - I suspect because of hull flexing but also I think it was poorly made. That probably doesn’t apply to later hulls.

From a cruising standpoint, especially with family and maybe guests, her tanks are too small. From memory something like 280 litres of water and 125litres of fuel. She used between 2.5 and 3 litres an hour so cross-channel is fine but the Hebrides and the Scillies were definitely not fine. We also ended up ferrying jerrycans of water from shore-taps.

I had another 150 litre water tank fitted under the front bunk which made it easier but made it more difficult to keep her trimmed. For proper cruising I’d want a water maker.

The other unsatisfactory thing was that she came with a small engine (40hp I think) and 2-bladed prop, with a boast that the hull is so easily driven that’s all it needs. Maybe true for round the cans off Denmark or in the Solent but not true in the Irish or North Sea. She is very easily stopped in a sea and needs the extra grunt of an (optional 55hp) bigger engine and 3-bladed prop, which is extremely useful in a confined marina space in a wind…. the prop bites instantly in reverse.

She also came with a too-small alternator and a Volvo standard lorry regulator so running the fridge was not on. I had her rewired and fitted with a bigger alternator, smart charger and bigger batteries so we had 420 amp-hours which would run the instruments and the fridge for 24hours but not the autopilot in addition. There’s no room for a generator.

She sails beautifully but the main is huge - air-draught 17.5 metres and a 5 metre boom. Getting the main down when the wind and sea get up is not a job for children or people who are not fit, strong and mobile. I fitted rolling boom furling gear, and although it was expensive and needed a new main as well it totally transformed our sailing as we got older.

On the other hand experienced sailing visitors couldn’t be prised off the helm - she’s like a giant dinghy with fingertip steering and good light-airs performance.

From a cruising standpoint I would say she is not robust enough. She’s built down to a dry weight of 8.6 tonnes, of which 3.7 tonnes is in the bulb. Everything is light. She is sleek and stylish, which means that a lot of stuff is hidden or tucked away out of sight. This means that when something goes wrong there are accessibility problems and it can help to be a bit of a Houdini. For example, the engine compartment fan is actually inside the ventilation tube that takes the hot air away, very difficult to get at.

So I think she is a good-looking fab boat for Solent club racing and cross channel jaunts where you have access to facilities. Two shower/toilets is wonderful because the rear cabin gets separate facilities.

She was lovely to sail and much admired. We had a fantastic 12 years on her. I would recommend for Solent / cross Channel / Brittany but not for distance. Of course it depends what sort of sailing you want to do - she’s fun, quick and responsive, and sensitive to trim.
However, her storage is not fantastic and the cupboards tend to be odd shapes. For self-sufficient distance with guests I’d say a more robustly built conventional cruising boat with tanks and power would be easier on the nerves.

For example the X-yachts Xc cruising boats are really good I believe and sail well. They have big tanks under the floor and proper storage and room for a generator. For example, the Xc42 has 250 litres of fuel, 520 litres of water and sails well.

The X-43 is more of a convertible in which to go away for the weekend with golf clubs and a desirable companion.

This grumpy old man”s conclusion.. If you buy a boat with a Bruce anchor throw it away immediately and put a proper anchor on. Secondly, If you’re going to be in the Med or Adriatic a teak deck is a really bad idea, and a dark blue hull is an even worse idea."

Hope this helps you to decide!
Peter

 

[kof]

Suspect all you want but you're 100% wrong. I've sailed many X boats - X-99, 412 , 442 and cruised an X-48 extensively in South Ireland/West Cork with my wife and very young kids. Fantastic , beautifully built (the 442 and 48) with the best materials. Can't fault them at all on that front.

But that's not what my comment was about. The post from "resolution" above sums it up better than I could have.

I suspect you have never sailed or stayed on board an X-43 or similar X-Yacht. Probably more comfortable interior than most AWB cruisers, and certainly more solid wood and seagoing details.

 

[Laser310]

"We sailed 18,000 miles in France, Scotland, England and the Baltic,

Thanks for that!

a lot to think about there.

 

[V1701]

Forgive me but whatever boat you choose the wife and kids absolutely have to be "on board" because if they're not enjoying it or getting it or however you want to put it then you've lost the battle. When you live on board full time the amount of that time spent actually sailing is relatively small and you absolutely have to factor that in...

Or to put it another way, there are valid reasons why long term cruisers don't choose the types of boat you're looking at, which of course doesn't mean it can't be done but...

 

[RJJ]

I see the forum's normal distrust of anything fast is alive and well!

From the sound of it, you're a little like me in that even when not racing the satisfaction of sailing a good boat well is worth just as much as a bit more comfort in harbour. My dad had a Dufour 40 and I thought that to be about perfect in terms of the comfort/ performance compromise for longish term cruising. The 44 of the same era was also a fabulous boat, but well under your budget so probably a bit long in the tooth for your search.

With a budget of £200k and a preference for fast boats, have you considered the Pogos? The 1250 is a similar size... Or is that a step too far down the performance road?
Boats like the Elan E5 are a step back towards comfort from Pogo, but if you're looking at X-Yachts you may have opinions of the build quality.

Certainly a fun search!

We have the Dufour 44 and she's great, as you say. Previous owner took her across the ARC and back twice.

Above 40 foot, I don't think the weight-carrying issue is terrible. Yes, we carry spares and food. But in racing trim these boats are designed to carry ten to twelve lardasses to sit on the rail and grind the sails; that'll be 3/4 of a ton that we don't have.

There are few other cruising boats we can even look at for long under sail. We moored in Weymouth next to a very smart HR44, spanking new, who was gently boasting about how he would show us his code zero the next morning en route to the Needles. I am afraid we didn't see much of it as (with full main and #3) we were 45 minutes ahead when we got there. Force 3-4, beam reach, flat water.

We don't find her overpowered, and ours has the deep keel and taller mast. It doesn't hurt if we reef a little earlier. We crossed the Channel blast reaching in 25 knots last year, just the four of us (with six and eight year old clipped on and mostly sitting on cockpit floor); 2 reefs and six rolls in the #3; because we steer with our fingertips and because we did Bursledon to St Vaas in 11 hours we weren't even tired.

It's a different style of cruising. You get around faster and sail more Vs motoring. Mooring is "different". On passage, you can sail away from trouble better, in whatever direction. It can be a bit bouncier in a seaway. Wind- and sea-state wise, you probably hit "full survival mode" a bit before a heavier boat; but equally if you do choose to adopt the Moitessier approach of maintaining full speed, you are much better equipped to do so.

But what actually we spend most of the time doing, is sailing in F2-5. It's more rewarding sailing if you like helming occasionally and tinkering with the sails; it's less "relaxing" in that the yacht likes more attention and there's less time for your book. You choose.

As to the original question, I would say you already know the answer from a sailing perspective. Major considerations are tankage (water, diesel, holding); rigging (age); power (batteries, generation) and equipment (AIS, radar, liferaft, MOB system, EPIRB). A boat equipped for round-the-cans might be a bit light on all this stuff, which could be tens of k all told and some degree of PITA. Tankage may be limited by space.

 

[geem]

I did a search, as I am sure it has been discussed.., but I could not get any results.

Within this generation of X-yachts, I have only ever been on the X-40 - I liked it, but it is a bit small (for me) as a live-aboard with wife and children/friends as occasional guests. It seems like the X-43 is pretty similar.., just a bit bigger. I am guessing it has similar sailing characteristics..?

I've raced quite a bit on the XP-44,and it's very nice, but they are ~2X the cost. I also like Arcona's but they are somewhat rare on the 2nd hand market, and typically more expensive than comparable X-yachts.

Cruising grounds would be northern Europe, and the Med.

When you say liveaboard, are you talking months or years at a time or a few months or weeks in the summer? The requirements for full time liveaboard is somewhat different depending on use in my experience. Also, the way you use the boat has some bearing on what works best. Cruising from marina to marina works fine with a boat with limited tankage. It soon becomes an issue if you are living off the hook in more remote areas. If you are marina hoping then just about any boat works fine.

 

[xyachtdave]

A nice X-43 with a white hull that only has teak in the cockpit (both big plusses for me) has just appeared on X-Yachts facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/38847313975

 

[E39mad]

Why is it that only Italian agents seem to add brokerage fees to their prices? Is it something to do with their legislation whereby they cannot charge the vendor or do they make money from both vendor and purchaser?

Apologies for the thread drift.

 

[Laser310]

When you say liveaboard, are you talking months or years at a time or a few months or weeks in the summer? The requirements for full time liveaboard is somewhat different depending on use in my experience. Also, the way you use the boat has some bearing on what works best. Cruising from marina to marina works fine with a boat with limited tankage. It soon becomes an issue if you are living off the hook in more remote areas. If you are marina hoping then just about any boat works fine.

I should have included this information.

I am talking about a few, say 2-3, months at a time, some in marinas, some on the hook. I am not moving out of my house.

I will certainly be doing some atlantic crossings as well.

A nice X-43 with a white hull that only has teak in the cockpit (both big plusses for me) has just appeared on X-Yachts facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/38847313975

i certainly agree about teak only in the cockpit - don't need the weight or the hassle elsewhere.

that boat has what X-Yachts calls the "modern" interior - the lengthwise galley and a sort of elliptical settee opposite .

i greatly prefer what they call the "classic" layout - a U-shaped galley aft and two straight settees forward on opposite side of the salon.

Although I have never been offshore with a "modern" layout, I think it would not work as well as the classic layout. The U-shaped galley is better I am sure, but the main thing is that those two straight settees will make the best sea berths on the boat - aft cabins are not nearly as good offshore as the settees berths.

The modern layout looks great for entertaining at the marina,...

I note that X-yachts no longer builds any boats with the modern layout.

 

[geem]

I should have included this information.

I am talking about a few, say 2-3, months at a time, some in marinas, some on the hook. I am not moving out of my house.

I will certainly be doing some atlantic crossings as well.



i certainly agree about teak only in the cockpit - don't need the weight or the hassle elsewhere.

that boat has what X-Yachts calls the "modern" interior - the lengthwise galley and a sort of elliptical settee opposite .

i greatly prefer what they call the "classic" layout - a U-shaped galley aft and two straight settees forward on opposite side of the salon.

Although I have never been offshore with a "modern" layout, I think it would not work as well as the classic layout. The U-shaped galley is better I am sure, but the main thing is that those two straight settees will make the best sea berths on the boat - aft cabins are not nearly as good offshore as the settees berths.

The modern layout looks great for entertaining at the marina,...

I note that X-yachts no longer builds any boats with the modern layout.

I think the idea of cruising a boat like this works fine on paper but the reality is likely to be somewhat different. If you are doing Atlantic crossings then the boat will be considerably loaded. Food alone for crew will take up space ( and everybody seems to over provision for the trip). If you dont have a watermaker then the weight of water in the tank and the addition of extra water in containers and space to stow it becomes a problem. Add in engine spares, etc and the other cruising stuff we accumulate ( in our case folding bikes, good size dinghy, large engine, paddleboard, two sets of dive gear, kite surfing gear, etc) then your spritely lightweight cruiser racer becomes an overloaded boat like so many others. The performance advantage is seriously eroded.
Since you are going to spend a lot of time overloaded as a cruiser then you need to consider why you are sailing this type of boat when something with better tankage, more storage and more set up for a cruising life style might be more suitable. In my experience spending months at a time living in what is a relatively small space compared to even a small house can be either a camping trip if you are denied some of the luxuries we take for granted at home or a far more comfortable experience. In a hot climate you need good protection from the sun. Either a bimini or sun cover thrown over the boom would be essential.
Good ventilation is essential. Good shelter in the cockpit when its blowing 20kts in the evening. Something it does most of the time in the Caribbean.
We met a young German couple cruising an X boat a couple of years ago in the Caribbean. They complained that the X boat was too light for cruising

 

[E39mad]

I quite these Sun Fast 43's - cheaper option and well fitted out for a large French yard:

2002 Jeanneau Sun Fast 43 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale

 

[dom]

Under the time cosh today, so fairly briefly: I had the same notion as the OP a few years back. Wanted to go sailing, be fast on the water, mainly with kids and occasional visits from wife and friends, not be too weather restricted, and with a manageably simple boat. In the end I determined that a circa 60 m^2 main and slightly smaller genny were the max I could manage without hydraulics - which I hate - with these backed up by a selection of assys.

In the end, for a whole variety of reasons, a circa 43' vessel was just too small: internal space, tankage, etc. We only used the boat out of school but kids come with a lot of clobber, they like a decent planing tender, paddle board, kayaks, buckets, spades, books on spies, space, etc., not forgetting that their gizzmos and computers all need regular charging, the boat must have decent full-dry storage, be fully heated, and on it goes. Also remember that sports boats lose a lot of accommodation space because, erm, they're fast!!

Re X-Yachts, I'd say a great choice and would think an Xc50 would be perfect - a friend of mine owns one and loves it - or perhaps an XC-45. Personally, I'd forget about anything from the performance or sem-performance range as their interiors are built to a weight saving as opposed to kid-proof spec.

To answer OP's question, I agree with Resolution and others that the X-43 is the wrong boat for such a purpose and doubt it would at all well. I'd look elsewhere if budget prevents another notch up the X-range; lots of great boats out there.

 

[ashtead]

Go for the xc45 if budget permits -might be easierto find berthing . I would love one but price puts me off.

 

[geem]

Go for the xc45 if budget permits -might be easierto find berthing . I would love one but price puts me off.

Interesting to look at the spec on the Xc 45. It does a lot of things right. Good size engine, great tankage and excellent ballast ratio. The 45 is actually 47’4” overall so not a cheap boat in marinas. It carries lots of sail so light wind performance will be good. The internal photos show it to have an Ikea type of fit out. Functional but not cosy?. There doesn't seem to be a great deal of storage but hard to tell from the photos. Not being a fan of modern boats I rarely like them or look at them twice but if I was to be forced to buy a modern boat, it would be on my short list.

 

[dunedin]

Interesting to look at the spec on the Xc 45. It does a lot of things right. Good size engine, great tankage and excellent ballast ratio. The 45 is actually 47’4” overall so not a cheap boat in marinas. It carries lots of sail so light wind performance will be good. The internal photos show it to have an Ikea type of fit out. Functional but not cosy?. There doesn't seem to be a great deal of storage but hard to tell from the photos. Not being a fan of modern boats I rarely like them or look at them twice but if I was to be forced to buy a modern boat, it would be on my short list.

I did the ARC in an Xc45. Brilliant boats. Cannot understand the comment about “Ikea fit out”. Perhaps the photos are of a light coloured wood option, but a very seamanlike and and practical interior, with masses of lovely wood (if choose right option) and masses of storage. Quality interior much closer to HR than Jeanneau is one of the attractions (albeit massive price differential). Lots of details on the Xc fully thought out for fast long distance cruising is the other.

We cruised across with white sail only - but arrived with a Farr 50 from the racing class in sight ahead, and a Pogo 12 in sight astern - and coincidentally “raced” informally an X-43 in sight for the last 2 days (the latter was slightly faster during the day with kite up, but dropped the kite at night when we passed them again). ALL of the similar sized AWBs, HR, Malo etc were a long way behind and we were top 5 overall on handicap, in spite of no spinnaker being used. Also a boat that feels able to handle a bit of weather.
It was a tough gig. Daily hot showers, cooking competitions, steady 8 knots or so, and trimmed sails every second day whether needed or not ;-)

 

[geem]

I did the ARC in an Xc45. Brilliant boats. Cannot understand the comment about “Ikea fit out”. Perhaps the photos are of a light coloured wood option, but a very seamanlike and and practical interior, with masses of lovely wood (if choose right option) and masses of storage. Quality interior much closer to HR than Jeanneau is one of the attractions (albeit massive price differential). Lots of details on the Xc fully thought out for fast long distance cruising is the other.

We cruised across with white sail only - but arrived with a Farr 50 from the racing class in sight ahead, and a Pogo 12 in sight astern - and coincidentally “raced” informally an X-43 in sight for the last 2 days (the latter was slightly faster during the day with kite up, but dropped the kite at night when we passed them again). ALL of the similar sized AWBs, HR, Malo etc were a long way behind and we were top 5 overall on handicap, in spite of no spinnaker being used. Also a boat that feels able to handle a bit of weather.
It was a tough gig. Daily hot showers, cooking competitions, steady 8 knots or so, and trimmed sails every second day whether needed or not ;-)

I wasnt being critical of the fit out. It has an IKEA style of fit out. I showed the internal photos from the X yacht website to my wife without saying a word. She just said IKEA. Which was exactly what I thought when I saw them. I also said the boat would be on a short list if I wanted a new boat but that was based on the general spec.
It doesn't surprise me that it performed well against other boats. I am sure they can handle bad weather. Deep keel, good ballast ratio and plenty of weight help in that respect.
We too have daily showers on Atlantic crossings, eat well and manage to do it with just the wife and me. We have just returned from the Caribbean to the UK. Had a fast trip done in comfort on a 40 year old boat of similar size, weight and ballast ratio. Now isnt that strange? There are very few modern boats I could say that about. Most modern boats are considerably lighter, have tiny ballast ratios, small water and fuel tanks. Its nice to see on a modern boat