Would this encourage you to give racing a go?

[flaming]

In the last 4 years racing fleets have plummeted. I'm racing an event this weekend with just 5 entries in our class. The same event 4 years ago had 20. Largely it's been that when people leave the fleet and sell their boats, those boats are not coming out to play under their new ownership. And very few new boats are being commissioned in our size range. Interestingly it's different for bigger boats, guess the economy effects those guys less...

This is the latest idea.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/170195/Dual-scoring-provides-balance-and-parity

So instead of hiving off the club racers from the IRC fleet, they all start together and the races are scored twice. I can't help but think this is a good idea, and could encourage people to try racing, and perhaps more importantly to progress steadily, rather than suddenly make the jump to IRC and find themselves disheartened at sailing around at the back of the fleet. I've seen that too many times, a new boat appears in the fleet with a scratch crew and "some" racing kit. Comes last for 2 weeks and is never seen again.

So, for those of you already racing club class - would you get an IRC cert to see how you're progressing? Would being able to say you'd beaten the local hotshot on club handicap encourage non racers to have a go?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I doubt it flaming. We have had some growth in our PY fleet but the IRC one has been falling. Part of their problem is the annual IRC fee - but I guess that money is tight for the necessary sails etc.


When I try to persuade people to race the usual excuse is unsuitable boat / lack of crew / lack of confidence / worry about damage. Mostly crew. Almost none of them understand handicaps so changing them wont make anydifference


And the new system may even put current
PY racers off. No adjustment for spinny or prop or keels means that the slower boats will lose the first few races of evry series and regatta. Thats daft.

 

[Sandy]

Nothing on earth, apart from a win on the EuroMillions and a boat to do the Vendée Globe, would get me racing. And to be honest the Vendée Globe is not your usual type of race.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I'm not likely to go back to racing with my own boat, mainly because I'm vaguely aware what my 'owner' used to spend keeping his boat competitive. Too much of an arms race.

There's also the question of finding and training crew.

One formula which I'm told has had some success is the Royal Southampton's double handed series, maybe because it eases crew problems.

 

[scruff]

I used to really enjoy racing, but ended up moving clubs so don't get the chance to do much now.

That said, the racing I enjoyed was just an excuse for 5 -10 boats to go out of a weekday evening, sail round a course, shout starboard for fun whenever someone else came within 150m, then retire to the bar for a laugh and a pint afterwards.

It also set the wheels in motion to allow for the annual prize giving. Always a great social that.

Would spending a few hundred a year for a wee bit of paper make me enjoy that anymore? Not a chance.

 

[flaming]

An IRC cert is £11.50 per metre, less to renew. Pretty small beer when put in the context of costs for running a racing boat. But in any case you only need one to be scored under IRC. Under this idea all boats would be scored under NHC so your fleet would increase with the IRC boats joining.

Maintaining a crew is indeed often citied, my top tip would be for one of the regular crew to take over organising the crew, makes the owner's life easier and can be really good for turning up crew that the owner wouldn't have found.

But TK, with this scheme you could line up against the IRC machines, but be handicapped against them under NHC, so you'd be competitive with whatever you chose to turn up with. Then it would just be up to you if you chose to start being scored under IRC as well.

 

[smth448]

I agree with the Bosun.
Our IRC numbers have been falling over recent years while the yardstick fleet was largely static in numbers. We ran two fleets IRC and PY. This was unsatisfactory because we ended up with a wide range of boat speeds in both classes which made course setting and handicapping a bit fraught to say the least. This year we split the fleet on a NHC rating and had dual results in class 1 for the boats with IRC ratings.
So far this season we have seen more boats in class 1 and less in class 2. Simply because the faster boats without IRC ratings have moved to class 1. The courses have been better suited to the size of boats but the overall entries are not increasing at all. In fact I think it has put off the owners of larger boats as they end up racing with the racers rather than the more friendly cruisers in class 2.
I am not sure if the IRC fee is a factor or not. Compared to all the other costs of runninga boat it is not a vast amount. It is all the other costs of racing that will put people off. Most people who go cruising do not want to strip their boat out ready for a Sunday morning race, so they either race with all the gear on board and lose or they dont bother.
Round our way most people who go racing do so in one designs, either dinghies or keelboats. These are still very popular, but one design keelboat racing is generally not that cheap eaither.

 

[Twister_Ken]

But TK, with this scheme you could line up against the IRC machines, but be handicapped against them under NHC, so you'd be competitive with whatever you chose to turn up with. Then it would just be up to you if you chose to start being scored under IRC as well.

But I'd also need to buy some laminate sails, a carbon pole, a spinnaker, keep her bottom clean, get some extra instruments, and then provide drinkies and nibbles for the crews and buy them a meal if we won something. Not to mention installing a secure display cabinet at home to keep the silverware in!

 

[maby]

Isn't it just another symptom of the aging sailing population that has been discussed in many threads recently? If we meet up with another boat of comparable size and speed, we'll engage in a bit of informal competition, but that's very different from a formal campaign for a series of races. I just don't have the energy (or time) for that any more - despite the fact that I was fairly active in dinghy racing in my youth.

 

[flaming]

and then provide drinkies and nibbles for the crews and buy them a meal if we won something. QUOTE]

I often hear this, and find it rather odd. We've always split the food costs between the crew, not the owner. Seems fair since he provides the boat! Honestly can't remember if we treated him at the end of season meal, there was rum and a hangover... But I'd think we'd have at least tried to.

I agree the trophy cabinet can be a problem though...

 

[jac]

But I'd also need to buy some laminate sails, a carbon pole, a spinnaker, keep her bottom clean, get some extra instruments, and then provide drinkies and nibbles for the crews and buy them a meal if we won something. Not to mention installing a secure display cabinet at home to keep the silverware in!

+1

I used to race Dinghies when I was younger, not at a really serious level but did so for fun for years.

I enjoy sailing a boat well but we went for an out and out cruiser with all the comforts that entails so that we could do it as a family. We had considered cruiser racers (and may get one in a few years if the family show an interest) but discounted as whilst they generally do a great job as a sailing boat, the cruising & living aboard for a bit is more comfortable on a cruiser, so we would have been left with a reasonably comfortable boat for cruising that would have needed a lot of money spent to remain competitive and a lot of time as others say to convert from one role to another.

If I wanted to race I would go and buy a laser and race on the local pond in the evening 10 mins from my house. Lower cost to stay competitive, no crew issues, minimal time on boat prep and converting a yacht from cruiser mode to race mode.

I would race yachts but only if I could do it on a more ad-hoc basis (diary commitments ) with lower risk of damage, with standard sails and cruising gear on board. It says a lot that so many turn up for RTIR.

What research is actually being done to understand why former racers have given up and why others don't replace them

 

[doris]

There's also the question of finding and training crew.

One formula which I'm told has had some success is the Royal Southampton's double handed series, maybe because it eases crew problems.

I quite agree about the short handed scenario. My boat needs 8 or 9 crew to race competitively fully crewed. Whilst it is not strictly a 'race' boat it can certainly get middle of the fleet in short handed stuff but in any remotely serious fully crewed fleet we would struggle.
In the cruiser racers of yesteryear we had great choice of dual function boats. The sigma fleets are a perfect example of this. Today boats are much more cruiser OR racer. Also the technology of sails have developed exponentionally with all the costs involved. Put this with the economic realities of life for crews. It is fine if you live locally to the boat and your social circle is v boaty but to keep a crew together and have a life outside of boating is vary hard to do at a longer range. The younger people I know now have such more focused and harder professional lives that twenty years ago. As such they are reluctant to committ to the diary discipline required to build a crew.

 

[Fantasie 19]

Isn't it just another symptom of the aging sailing population that has been discussed in many threads recently? If we meet up with another boat of comparable size and speed, we'll engage in a bit of informal competition, but that's very different from a formal campaign for a series of races.

Not so much the aging sailing population as the fact that we are all so stupidly busy these days - I have to carefully ration the available time I have to "waste" sailing (SWMBO's definition) so racing really isn't top of my agenda (and that was despite racing every Sunday for 10 years when I windsurfed)

I just don't have the energy (or time) for that any more - despite the fact that I was fairly active in dinghy racing in my youth.

+1!

It says a lot that so many turn up for RTIR.

Good point... primarilly I suspect as it doesn't require a huge time commitment - it's once a year, and you know you're going to have some competition, there's always a boat just in front of you, and (hopefully) just behind you...

 

[Krusty]

Racing, like acne, is something you grow out of.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

and then provide drinkies and nibbles for the crews and buy them a meal if we won something. QUOTE]

I often hear this, and find it rather odd. We've always split the food costs between the crew, not the owner. Seems fair since he provides the boat! Honestly can't remember if we treated him at the end of season meal, there was rum and a hangover... But I'd think we'd have at least tried to.

I agree the trophy cabinet can be a problem though...

Can I hire you to teach my crew who provides the food?

As it happens I went down to one club this afternoon and they were all sat outside in the sun lamenting the new handicap system. Apparently its caused fleet to shrink because until the adjustments to handicap kick in half way through a series, half the fleet are bandits and the other half no hopers. The starting handicaps simply are too crude and need some system of adjustment. Rememger Flaming, that the trad PY fleet had lots of bilge keelers, some motor sailers, a few old Macwesters etc so the adjustment factors for props, no spinny, keels etc mattered.

 

[Seajet]

Flaming,

I think the comments about time and money are relevant, but there's also the fact people grow out of going round in circles and shouting at each other !

Instead of being ordered to go around a course I'm much happier sailing fast to a different place to stay; the comment about the ' arms race ' re sails and equipment is very true too, I have similar doubts about the changes to the PY system.

The best race I've ever been in was Falmouth Working Boats, we cheered each other boat as we met while sharing out beers and pasties for the crew.

I think dinghy racing has been even harder hit, recently at our club they launched 2 rescue boats - 4 duty crew - for 2 singlehander Lasers racing !

Our club is making strenuous efforts to fix this though with a lot more social sailing and inter-club events which show a lot of promise, I think this is the way forward.

 

[PeterR]

But I'd also need to buy some laminate sails, a carbon pole, a spinnaker, keep her bottom clean, get some extra instruments, and then provide drinkies and nibbles for the crews and buy them a meal if we won something. Not to mention installing a secure display cabinet at home to keep the silverware in!

Exactly. Plus the need to change sails and take all the cruising kit off to go racing and then put it all back again to go cruising. The local IRC series tried having dual scoring for passage racing but numbers have still fallen dramatically for both IRC and PY( and its successor). Personnally, I have gone back to racing dinghies and dayboats. Its cheaper, easier to organise and a much purer form of racing than any varient of handicap.

The cruiser can stay as just that.

 

[savageseadog]

I've seen the same problem around the NW and Wales clubs. Economic and social factors are playing their part but there's also a problem in mixed fleets that the newer designs are so effective that the older boats aren't getting a look in, rating or no. The IRC rating isn't really working on a wide spectrum of yachts.

 

[onesea]

An IRC cert is £11.50 per metre, less to renew. Pretty small beer when put in the context of costs for running a racing boat. But in any case you only need one to be scored under IRC. Under this idea all boats would be scored under NHC so your fleet would increase with the IRC boats joining.

Maintaining a crew is indeed often citied, my top tip would be for one of the regular crew to take over organising the crew, makes the owner's life easier and can be really good for turning up crew that the owner wouldn't have found.

But TK, with this scheme you could line up against the IRC machines, but be handicapped against them under NHC, so you'd be competitive with whatever you chose to turn up with. Then it would just be up to you if you chose to start being scored under IRC as well.

Flaming thats just it when 150 pounds is small beer for playing at racing you have just put off half your readers....

My cruising boat is an X race boat, and still quite capable. I have raced various boats at various levels form dinghys round the cans to RORC Races.
I keep having an eye on racing calander but the problems are:
1) Equipment levels and have equipment to modern regulations, for more than round the cans we do not shape up costs soon mount up.
2) Round the cans racing is not what appeals to us, why spend the morning or evening slaughtering round the cans when we can spend the whole day sailing instead?
3) Getting regular crew,
4) Even as a X racer the complexities of getting the boat up to speed with regulations equipment measurement takes time and effort that could of been spent sailing.
5) The racing that really appeals is shorthanded passage racing but the cost soon mount up for getting to standard?

The days where people could have ago in there cruiser and grow from there have gone. Its increasingly a case of you own a race boat or you cruise, and converting cruisers to races is not going to happen in the present racing environment.

 

[mrming]

Chiming in here as a mid thirties, first time small boat owner. I've just started my first season racing after growing up sailing dinghies and keelboats and having spent the last ten years or so crewing for others. Although the expense of acquiring the boat, joining a club, getting a mooring etc has been significant, it's been extremely enjoyable so far.

I'm now trying to train up friends and family members as crew, and who knows hopefully some of them will join the club and take up the sport in their own right.

One of the problems we have is that our races can be quite long, and if we fall behind due to understandable mistakes while people are learning, it can be a bit demoralising for them to then have to race at the back for another three hours.

I found myself wondering on Sunday if two short races might be more fun and provide a better environment for people to learn and improve (which is after all what the sport needs if more people are going to take it up).