Would this encourage you to give racing a go?

[flaming]

As regards crewing - an oft quoted reason for not racing - there is a strange paradox in the number of people willing to pay large sums of money for CC courses or mile-building cruises and the number willing to turn up regularly for free sailing.

I blame the racing skippers!

It is staggering the number of boats that struggle to get crew to sail in the same events as the likes of Sailing Logic etc charge good money for a spot on the boat for. Not knocking the Logic "formula", it clearly works and everyone I know that has done it raves about it, but there demonstrably isn't a shortage of people who would be interested in sailing.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I did a sailing logic course flaming and yes I did enjoy it. Particularly the milling about before the race star, with good racing skippers handling good boats in a way I would never dare.

But the crewing issue is mostly a problem of crew stability. Its easy to get people to come along for one race but what you need is the same group week after week, not to mention crew practices etc. Thats a lot more of a committment than a day or two on a sailing logic course. Its also why I have no crew issues at all in winter when my crew's own boats are ashore, but struggle in summer when they prefer to be sailing their own boat.

Incidentally, do you know of a model of boat which is biog enough to do the occasional weekend cruise, is lift keel and is designed to allow single handed racing? I'm pondering seling my cruiser and buying something smaller which I can weekend on, or race with / without crew and dry out in. I cant think of one.

 

[flaming]

I did a sailing logic course flaming and yes I did enjoy it. Particularly the milling about before the race star, with good racing skippers handling good boats in a way I would never dare.

But the crewing issue is mostly a problem of crew stability. Its easy to get people to come along for one race but what you need is the same group week after week, not to mention crew practices etc. Thats a lot more of a committment than a day or two on a sailing logic course. Its also why I have no crew issues at all in winter when my crew's own boats are ashore, but struggle in summer when they prefer to be sailing their own boat.

Incidentally, do you know of a model of boat which is biog enough to do the occasional weekend cruise, is lift keel and is designed to allow single handed racing? I'm pondering seling my cruiser and buying something smaller which I can weekend on, or race with / without crew and dry out in. I cant think of one.

Only thing that comes immediately to mind is the J95. Not going to be a cheap option though... Although thinking about it wasn't there a lift keel option on the first 27.7? If you want an older boat the Parkers used to get good reviews.

Crew stability can be a problem I agree, but the role of the "crew co-ordinator" (not always the skipper) should be to grow as big a pool as possible of people who have sailed on the boat and could come on and slot right in. Our crew emails go to over 30 people now, and we're not often scrabbling for crew last minute.

 

[PatrickB02]

Incidentally, do you know of a model of boat which is biog enough to do the occasional weekend cruise, is lift keel and is designed to allow single handed racing? I'm pondering seling my cruiser and buying something smaller which I can weekend on, or race with / without crew and dry out in. I cant think of one.

First 210/211/217 - I've got a 211 and use it in pretty much exactly the way you describe.

 

[mrming]

I did a sailing logic course flaming and yes I did enjoy it. Particularly the milling about before the race star, with good racing skippers handling good boats in a way I would never dare.

But the crewing issue is mostly a problem of crew stability. Its easy to get people to come along for one race but what you need is the same group week after week, not to mention crew practices etc. Thats a lot more of a committment than a day or two on a sailing logic course. Its also why I have no crew issues at all in winter when my crew's own boats are ashore, but struggle in summer when they prefer to be sailing their own boat.

Incidentally, do you know of a model of boat which is biog enough to do the occasional weekend cruise, is lift keel and is designed to allow single handed racing? I'm pondering seling my cruiser and buying something smaller which I can weekend on, or race with / without crew and dry out in. I cant think of one.

Super Seal 26 or the later variants Parker 27, 275 is a good bet i think. I raced on one for a few years and it was very competitive yet not tiny inside by any means.

I have a First 235 which also fits the bill but may be a little cosy inside for your requirements, and the swing keel is only good for taking the ground in mud.

 

[TSB240]

I
Incidentally, do you know of a model of boat which is biog enough to do the occasional weekend cruise, is lift keel and is designed to allow single handed racing? I'm pondering seling my cruiser and buying something smaller which I can weekend on, or race with / without crew and dry out in. I cant think of one.

Our Trapper TS 240 fits that bill quite nicely...

Getting a bit long in the tooth and fed up with carrying petrol for engine so looking at going for more modern equivalent in the form of Bendytoy 27.7....

Thought about Elan 210 but it is just too small for our sort of weekending.

 

[BruceDanforth]

I thought about buying a sonata at one stage but all the ones I looked at that I could afford were so shagged that they'd never win anything. I didn't rate my chances of reliably raising a crew from my mates at that time so I let the idea go for now and bought a slower cruiser. Maybe I could take her up to the RNYC and race at Blyth but there is still the crew issue and I'm enjoying single handing.

 

[dancrane]

I used to be a keen dinghy racer (National 12), then crewed on Squibs. I loved the adrenalin aggression/ assertiveness at the start and round the marks.

Interesting. I'm with Seajet too...a journey or even a race, which starts in one place and ends elsewhere, ideally with relaxed celebratory over-indulgence, will always be much more appealing than going endlessly round local marks for points and a bit of tin at the end of the season...

...but regardless of my own enduring fitness (in spite of a virtual campaign of dietary self-abuse), I'm completely repelled by that aggressive/assertive attitude of sailing racers that I've known. Always seemed much less to do with actual skill, far more like locker-room bullying - or perhaps the latter, to make up for absence of the former?

If racing was purely a job of tactical navigation, judgement and sensitivity to the wind on the boat, it would enthrall me. But I've only ever encountered raucous, overplayed verbal gamesmanship - abominable manners and total sense-of-humour-failure amongst the other people doing it. I doubt that attracts more newcomers than it deters.

P.S. I've only read up to post 26 here, so far...

 

[awol]

But I've only ever encountered raucous, overplayed verbal gamesmanship - abominable manners and total sense-of-humour-failure amongst the other people doing it. I doubt that attracts more newcomers than it deters.

Often quoted and should be above every bar of every racing yacht club

"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost
the respect of your competitors." - Paul Elvstrom

 

[flaming]

If racing was purely a job of tactical navigation, judgement and sensitivity to the wind on the boat, it would enthrall me. But I've only ever encountered raucous, overplayed verbal gamesmanship - abominable manners and total sense-of-humour-failure amongst the other people doing it. I doubt that attracts more newcomers than it deters.

I think this attitude is more prevalent amongst the back markers, and can often form a part of why they are back markers! I have only ever come across one case of "screamy shouty disease" amongst a front runner, and dealt with him by following through on the protests. After he lost 3 he stopped trying to bully us on the course, as he knew we weren't going to stand for it.

The problem is that when you start racing you're not at the front, you're at the back. Best advice I can give is to know the rules and always file the protests. If you are fouled and don't protest, that boat is going to take liberties with you in the future.

 

[dancrane]

Thanks AWOL, I like Elvstrøm's sentiments there, but the creatures who seem so competitively pumped up that they can't restrain their impatience and anger, don't seem to recognise respect in the same way I know it. I doubt they can read, either, so the Elvstrøm quote wouldn't be understood.

Good points, Flaming. I'm not up to any racing in the 'new' boat yet, but I'll keep your words in mind when the time comes.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Best advice I can give is to know the rules and always file the protests. If you are fouled and don't protest, that boat is going to take liberties with you in the future.

That's even more off-putting - spending the evening in the company of the protest committee!

Mind you, last time I did it was in the RYS where, as non-members, we couldn't buy drinks. Some old feller, probably called 'Buffy' by his mates, stood us drinks, then bought another round when he heard we'd won the protest.

 

[mrming]

I think you either need to go racing and know the rules, or go cruising. I hate protests as much as the next man and have only ever been in 2 hearings in over 20 years of racing, but if there's no rules then what exactly is the game?

Agreed that shouty bullying types don't usually know what they're doing, but equally if someone does something illegal / dangerous that effects me then I'll certainly let them know. If the person explains that they don't know the rules yet that I would happily accept that as an apology. That, however, has never happened once.

 

[chrisbitz]

I think you either need to go racing and know the rules, or go cruising. I hate protests as much as the next man and have only ever been in 2 hearings in over 20 years of racing, but if there's no rules then what exactly is the game?

That sounds like a bit of an elitist way to go about things... It's like you're saying racing is only for real experts and if you're not, don't waste our time

This whole thread started as a discussion on how to encourage more people to take up and join in with racing...

I want to go racing, but I don't know *all* the rules. I rather hoped I might use common sense and pick them up as I go?...

 

[mrming]

Didn't mean it to sound elitist. More that there has to *be* rules. I'm perfectly okay with people out on the race course keeping their noses clean and learning the sport as they go. Currently my whole crew are learning and I don't shout at them - everyone has to start somewhere .

 

[AntarcticPilot]

That sounds like a bit of an elitist way to go about things... It's like you're saying racing is only for real experts and if you're not, don't waste our time

This whole thread started as a discussion on how to encourage more people to take up and join in with racing...

I want to go racing, but I don't know *all* the rules. I rather hoped I might use common sense and pick them up as I go?...

I speak as a complete non-racer!

It does seem to me that the rules are excessively complex, and I personally find it very off-putting that race series can be "won" by one boat forcing another to lose, rather than it being simply the fastest/best navigated boat winning as a matter of course. Sometimes it seems to me that racing is more about the creative use of the racing rules than out and out sailing ability.

Wouldn't it be better to operate yacht racing as a sort of time-trial, with boats going off at intervals, fastest boat first? Avoid ALL the issues to do with racing and/or IRPCS? Times would be adjusted according to handicap, of course.

 

[flaming]

That's even more off-putting - spending the evening in the company of the protest committee!

Mind you, last time I did it was in the RYS where, as non-members, we couldn't buy drinks. Some old feller, probably called 'Buffy' by his mates, stood us drinks, then bought another round when he heard we'd won the protest.

To be fair, that does amount to exactly 1/3 of all the protests I have ever been in!

And no, I don't say you do need to know all the rules to start racing, just have a basic grounding in them - port/starboard, windward leeward, clear astern etc. I was merely suggesting that the best way of dealing with shouty bullys is to know the rules and apply them. Even if you need to ask advice from others in the bar afterwards if you're not sure who was in the right before filing any protests.

Remember protest hearings are NOT just about arguing over who was where when, they can be very instructive, and protest committees don't mind explaining rules to new racers if necessary. In fact this was the basis of the arbitration system, when if the parties agree about what happened but not what the rules mean, a rules expert simply explains the rules and explains how they apply to the situation. Which is a brilliant idea, and often takes place with a drink in one hand, ends with a handshake and everyone being a little bit better informed next time they're on the water.

 

[mrming]

Yep as flaming says, there are really only three main rules you need to know to get started and the cruising guys use the first two of them anyway.

1) Port & starboard
2) Windward / leeward
3) Water at the mark

If you know those three rules as a starting point you're unlikely to upset any fellow racers.

 

[Seven Spades]

Ok to go racing I need the following

A new Mainsail (North quoted £6400)
Work on my Keel HYS (£1700)
A smaller spinnaker (No quote yet)

If I don't go racing I still need the first two, but if I don't get them I will be slow but still go sailing. Meanwhile I still owe my wife a promised eternity ring.

All I can say is it will be ticklish to get my boat up to speed before someone gets a ring...

 

[mrming]

Ok to go racing I need the following
A new Mainsail (North quoted £6400)

What have you got - a Swan 45?!