Would this encourage you to give racing a go?

[dunedin]

Organising 8-10 crew for a 36 footer, plus removing all the cruising gear is just far too much hassle.

White sail passage racing, and limited crew number events, more appealing than windward / leeward yawn stuff, at least for me

But even then, got as far as renewing the Clyde rating certificate for a double handed event but discovered the insurance upgrade for racing doubled the premium, and PVC covered lifelines needed replacing. So abandoned the idea.

If want to go racing probably buy a second small boat (eg Sonata) as cheaper and simpler to race that than use the "cruiser/racer"

 

[Keen_Ed]

and then provide drinkies and nibbles for the crews and buy them a meal if we won something.

I often hear this, and find it rather odd. We've always split the food costs between the crew, not the owner. Seems fair since he provides the boat!

Have yet to come across a boat - up to RORC flag officers - where food/drink costs etc aren't shared (and the owner doesn't pay). Only time the owner buys a drink is if the club doesn't accept cash.

Owners paying for everything is much more common in the US, AFAIAA.

 

[Gk 66]

I always get the first round in at the bar. thats about as generous as I get.

 

[NealB]

I used to be a keen dinghy racer (National 12), then crewed on Squibs. I loved the adrenalin aggression/ assertiveness at the start and round the marks.

Nowadays (in my late fifties), I'm with Seajet....I've grown out of blatting round and round in circles, getting shouted at.

My racing urges are now satisfied either by crewing on a Dragon half a doxen times a season, where the sailing is competitive but impeccably well mannered, or by running (which I still do obsessively...wish I could get paid to run).

But nothing will now tempt me to race my own boat in any serious way.

 

[chrisbitz]

I'm surprised at the focussed competitiveness here... I've only been sailing a year, so maybe I'm naive, but nobody's mentioned about the fun of racing.

You know, getting together with some friends and sailing for a purpose, rather than aimless wandering sailing.

When I first joined my club, I was invited to crew for someone in a race and I LOVE it! There's no question of us winning, as the owner hasn't got £7k for some new sails, but we enjoy the race and the company and the teamwork.

There are other reasons to race, other than winning - and maybe that winning attitude is rubbing off on potential new racers, and putting them off?

 

[NealB]

There are other reasons to race, other than winning - and maybe that winning attitude is rubbing off on potential new racers, and putting them off?

You are certainly not naive.....you are absolutely right!

However, I have never had your mature, level headed approach to any sport. In my head, I'm the same as I was at ten and at eighteen. I've always been very competitive, albeit (I hope) in a very polite, civilised way.

If I'm going to do a sport, I do so with the aim of winning it.

Which I agree, is immature and illogical!

 

[mrming]

I'm surprised at the focussed competitiveness here... I've only been sailing a year, so maybe I'm naive, but nobody's mentioned about the fun of racing.

You know, getting together with some friends and sailing for a purpose, rather than aimless wandering sailing.

When I first joined my club, I was invited to crew for someone in a race and I LOVE it! There's no question of us winning, as the owner hasn't got £7k for some new sails, but we enjoy the race and the company and the teamwork.

There are other reasons to race, other than winning - and maybe that winning attitude is rubbing off on potential new racers, and putting them off?

+1 to that.

Having some structure to the day's sailing makes a huge difference to my trainee crew. Obviously I'd love to be winning every race but that's not practical until they've all got the hang of it, so I'm happy so long as they have fun and learn something every time. I definitely go out racing in weather where I just wouldn't bother otherwise, and to be honest the UK weather is so unreliable that I'm not sure how much sailing I'd actually do if we were just pottering. May see you on the water judging from your sig btw. Are you Saturdays or Sundays?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Organising 8-10 crew for a 36 footer, plus removing all the cruising gear is just far too much hassle.

Why 8 crew - I race my 35footer with just 3 crew plus me', And I've even won the odd series. OK this isnt the sh×t hot racing of the solent and my boat is a fast cruiser rather than a lightweight flyer.

''The days where people could have ago in there cruiser and grow from there have gone. Its increasingly a case of you own a race boat or you cruise, and converting cruisers to races is not going to happen in the present racing environment.''

That might be your perception but its way wrong. Our py fleet has everything from old Nicholson half tonners to Sadler 29 bilge keelers and lots of other old cruisers in between. We race every month of the year bar January and with a fleet typically between 10 and 20 boats. But I guess you need to find a club that has our sort of fleet rather than one full of elans and arconas and firsts etc

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I agree with the arguments about cost of competing at IRC level - you just cant be in the top half of the fleet on cruising sails.

I know the RORC Rating Office very well, several as close friends, but the idea of dual scoring the same race is not my cup of tea either. This used to happen in Lymington but was dropped, fortunately there are enough boats in each class to have separate start times and results.

When the IRC rated boats were also given a club handicap, the same boats kept winning. This is mainly because if they have bothered to go for an IRC rating, they are the better sailors. Hence they win the Club handicap class as well. Those in the family cruiser still dont get a look in which is dispiriting.

Much better to keep the two classes apart both on the water and on the results sheets.

 

[PhillM]

I'm about to do my first regatta in Paean. Last time I was in a race was 25 years ago. Now I'm in 8 in a week.

I agree with the cost arguments. After spending 20k + on the refit I still need to spend £1k + on bits and some work to meet IASF 4. And even then I need to ask for dispensation because we don't have guard rails.

Mind you I don't expect to be competitive - in fact I expect to be tail end Charlie and really want to avoid being lapped!

For the record really looking forward to
It

 

[Bosun Higgs]

When the IRC rated boats were also given a club handicap, the same boats kept winning. This is mainly because if they have bothered to go for an IRC rating, they are the better sailors. Hence they win the Club handicap class as well. Those in the family cruiser still dont get a look in which is dispiriting.

.

We had the same experience but I dont think it was just the better sailor bit. Mostly it was equipment based - laminate sails, empty boats, no roller reefing etc that made the official PY numbers a complete nonsense for those that normally sailed in the IRC fleet.

 

[savageseadog]

Why 8 crew - I race my 35footer with just 3 crew plus me', And I've even won the odd series. OK this isnt the sh×t hot racing of the solent and my boat is a fast cruiser rather than a lightweight flyer.

I could race my Prima 38 with three crew in light air, forget it for round the cans in stronger winds above F4, it's impossible.

 

[flaming]

When the IRC rated boats were also given a club handicap, the same boats kept winning. This is mainly because if they have bothered to go for an IRC rating, they are the better sailors. Hence they win the Club handicap class as well. Those in the family cruiser still dont get a look in which is dispiriting.

Much better to keep the two classes apart both on the water and on the results sheets.

Isn't the point of the new handicap rule that it is a handicap rule - rather than a measurement rule? So if you win in race 1, you have to win by more in race 2 to win that? In which case the IRC boats might top both rankings at the start, but unless they improve all the time they will quickly be caught by the others. And when it settles down should become more of a golf handicap system - where the results are more a reflection on who sailed well by their standards on any given day?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Its both a measurement rule and a performance one Flaming. The start point being the measurement based on a simplified IRC model. But the trouble is this measurement bit is crude in the extreme and based on internet data for old makes, not differentiating between bilge and fin for example or three blade and folder, so at the start of a series some of the boats are no hopers even if sailed by you and others are complete bandits even of sailed by me. To compensate for this, the adjustments after a race are big. Even bigger in a regatta. And they are different for each series so if you race on a sunday and also on a tuesday , you have two handicaps which alter at two different rates. Plus a third if you enter a local regatta.

Everyone is moaning and everyone seems to think they are worse off, which of course is simply not possible. But it is a bit of a cockup.

 

[mrming]

The are two problems with the NHC as far as I see it:

1) The base numbers are mental. Bananas. It's like they generated them at random. We're 21' 7" (non-sportsboat) and we're just 0.02 lower than an Impala. There is nothing I can do about this, ever.

2) The RYA recommending re-setting the number for each individual club racing series makes no sense. If roughly the same boats are racing week in, week out, chucking away all the data that has gradually started to make the numbers fairer is crazy.

 

[flaming]

Everyone is moaning and everyone seems to think they are worse off, which of course is simply not possible. But it is a bit of a cockup.

Wouldn't be handicap racing if there wasn't moaning about ratings!

Does seem crazy to throw all the data away though. I had thought that the plan was to create a sort of self correcting handicap system, not to reset it every time.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Isn't the problem with results-adjusted ratings that an old dog, sailed by a bunch of tossers, will eventually have its rating reduced to the point where it's a sure-fire winner?

 

[Bosun Higgs]

No. What happened with the old PY was that boats get gradually closer together and the outfit that wins one race is the outfit that improves most on what they have previously done. That could be the ****** boat whether the tossers were a crew of **** hot young racers or deaf old fa5ts. In short contin uous improvement is what matters. To give you an example, a pal of mine started racing his twin keel boat about 5 years ago. He hadnt got a clue and mostly got DNFs since his was a slow boat anyway. He won the last series despite still being the next to slowest boat in the fleet thanks to really improving and developing his sailing skills. Initially his handicap dropped and he soon started getting mid fleet. That kept his interest going and noiw his handicap has tightenedd once again.

But then everyone having a chance of winning is what makes the PY fleet a good one. Contrast the IRC fleet where the newest maximised boat with the most expensive kit usually wins.

Yes the PY or performance based handicaps arent for the really serious racers any more than IRC is - real racers IMO go for one design fleets because thats the nearest you can get to taking the boat out of the formula for winning. But PY is a damn good way of getting the average Joe out on the water for a couple of hours fun followed up by a further twop hours fun in the clubhouse making up the excuses and taking the pi55 out of someone who has cocked up and flown the spinny upside down ( yes we did it once ). Sailors are only part masochist - no one will race week after week and year after year with never a hope of winning.

 

[FullCircle]

I have watched the fleets dwindle, and although I believe there is recognition of equipment and crewnumbers/ performance in rating, there are other considerations. Race Office have an issue when a fully spangled racing boat is sent out on the same course as the slow boats. They are in the packed up, in the bar, eaten the best dinner choices and gone home before the slower boats have managed to finish, due to the tidal gate in the middle of the course, or the wind dying the evening races, exacerbating the tidal issue.
That is not to mention missing out that the Class 6 starters, being last away, mostly managed to get tangled in return marks with other classes, sometimes one going round to port, other to starboard of the same mark. The chaos of red hot dinghy shouty people and frightened non racing family boats knowledge of racing rules (or even Colregs, different argument) can be imagined.
I used to do Class 6 'family' cruisers in Burnham and Ramsgate, but always felt we were either making up the numbers, or subsidising the 'racers'. Those racing boats who could not field a full crew, would head down to Class 6 and be finished before the family boats were rounding the 1st mark (slight exagerration, but you get the point). Pot hunting gits.

I have just lost interest over the years.

 

[awol]

As regards crewing - an oft quoted reason for not racing - there is a strange paradox in the number of people willing to pay large sums of money for CC courses or mile-building cruises and the number willing to turn up regularly for free sailing.

I blame the racing skippers!