Windvane pilots vs electric autopilots: all you need to know

[TernVI]

Seems to be a pattern of fitting a windvane for the "big trip", returning and no longer really needing it so turn it into cash because it adds little to the resale of the boat. Or buyer of boat with one does not really need it so does the same.

Or buy it for the big trip, be disappointed with it, get shot of it.
Happened to someone I know.
The weather on his Atlantic circuit didn't exactly play to the strengths of his vane gear, which had a few teething problems.
When he got home, he needed an extra 2ft of LOA in the marina like a hole in the head and people kept trying to drive into it.

These days with fridges and stuff, the current draw of electric steering is often not a big deal by comparison.

I find vane gear an interesting thing and I like the 'no batteries required' part of it, but I can see why its appeal is limited.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I'm reminded that a large proportion of Golden Globe Race entrants hadn't troubled themselves with learning how to use vane gear and were quick to blame the products. If a similar chunk of other buyers have the same problem then that'll feature in the second-hand sales too.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I'm rather enjoying this thread; very interesting. I'm also am taking note that while Koketienne's boat with it's inherently more balanced ends can be made to self-steer with a couple of bungee cords (no matter what other sins the IOR may have introduced), Daydreamer's more au currant model is eating up the autopilots.

The exceptional accelerations that pilots on planing racers have to cope with set aside, it may very well be the case that we are asking APs to deal with increasingly impossible situations involving inherently unbalanced designs and greater acceleration due to lighter displacements and greater beam in the stern. And yes, tall rigs do tend to contribute to weatherhelm.

For a design to be directionally stable the CL has to be behind the CoG. With a wide buoyant transom this is pretty much impossible to achieve. In fact, the Spray, famed for it's directional stability was the precise opposite: bluff bows with a continuous reduction in beam towards the stern and the CoG well ahead of CL and with a fair amount of drag to her keel. Even in Slocum's day her ability was considered somewhat miraculous. Good for directional stability, lousy for going to weather.

On weatherhelm and steering ability: failures in this department are not the sole prerogative of contemporary design, there are a fair number of classic lemons out there as well. That said, I would very much like to know which contemporary designs, if any, excel in this particular aspect.

I had a Water Witch ketch that was a real pig on the helm, so much so that it was easier to steer sitting in lee and using your feet. I had an Autohelm 1000 TP back then: it was ok, but my God, the poor thing had to work hard.

My current brand was one of the worst boats I have ever sailed in regards to her steering, as the flat plate rudder, labouring in the turbulence of the wide and blunt deadwood, could neither tack the boat reliably nor overcome the weatherhelm caused by an unbalanced sail plan. In fairly mild conditions the flat rudder would stall out and steerage would instantly collapse. With a certain amount of research and effort we were able to fix all that.

Now, with a balanced and somewhat directionally stable boat, even a forty year old AP of the first generation type can steer our reformed tub on all points of sail; to weather and on a beam reach, Arnold, as we dubbed him, does not have a lot to do; running under spinnaker in up to 30kts and a quartering sea the AP will make an occasional, rather leisurely correction of no more than a quarter turn of the wheel, which equates to 3.5 degr. of helm. By the way, our old WP is virtually silent in its operation and, supposedly, waterproof.

If this site were a bit more accommodating I would happily post a video of her racing downwind in 30kts or one of my wife, steering in a beam sea in a F6 at near 8kts and with no more urgency than if she were taking a leasurly drive down a country lane; only the sight of the ocasional spray transiting the fordeck or the white rush of the wake giving any indication of what is going on.

So, my question to the forum: Who on here actually has a directionally stable boat?

 

[john_morris_uk]

What do most actual sailors really want? to be able to leave the helm for short periods, mostly while motoring ?
That is the game changer which enables short handed sailing, anything else tends to be a bonus for many people.
You have to be on watch, most of the time you might as well be steering.

This is where we fundamentally differ. I love being on watch but when cruising I would hate having to steer all the time. The autopilot goes on almost as soon as we drop the mooring so I can get on with tidying lines, navigation, checking trim and all the dozens of other jobs there are to do. (Including peering round and under the Genoa)
Steering is a chore and it’s been described as the ‘tyranny of the helm’. In a half decent breeze and with the boat tramping along I’ll often choose to hand steer for a while, but the vast majority of the time, the boat is steering itself.
For me a decent autopilot is a must. We also have a Hydrovane for longer offshore passages. Best of both worlds. IMHO.

 

[TernVI]

....

So, my question to the forum: Who on here actually has a directionally stable boat?

The most directionally stable boat I have is a very fast racing dinghy.
When it is planing fast, it is very stable and remarkably easy to sail.
The dynamics of the hull at speed mean it basically 'wants to be upright'.
The gust response of the rig works with the hull instead of against it.

There are limits to whether a lot pf 'directional stability' is a good thing.
A boat that 'always wants to go in a straight line' will take a lot of steering to make it takes the best course in waves, which means a lot of drag from the rudder and therefore a slow boat. But a yacht with a lot of weather helm is not directionally unstable, more astable, without control input it will change course. A lot of boats have a direction where they are genuinely 'stable' in the engineering sense, i.e. turn them a little way in either direction and they will return to the stable point. That direction is 'in irons'.

There also comes a point where sailing in waves, a constant direction wrt the water is not the same as a constant direction with respect to the wind.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I’m worried about the suggestion that large mainsail = lots of weather helm. IMHO poorly trimmed sails or sailing the boat on her ear and/or poorly set up rigging = lots of weather helm (unless the yacht designer genuinely didn’t know what they were doing and designed a complete dog of a boat. )

I agree that some boats are harder to trim than others, but persistent large amounts of weather helm is slow sailing and somethings wrong.

IIRC you need a little bit of weather helm to help lift the boat to weather (and for safety; a boat with lee helm is dangerous!) However 8 degrees of weather helm is about the max you should go for if I recall my book on Sailtrim correctly.

 

[Daydream believer]

I’m worried about the suggestion that large mainsail = lots of weather helm. IMHO poorly trimmed sails or sailing the boat on her ear and/or poorly set up rigging = lots of weather helm (unless the yacht designer genuinely didn’t know what they were doing and designed a complete dog of a boat. )

I agree that some boats are harder to trim than others, but persistent large amounts of weather helm is slow sailing and somethings wrong.

IIRC you need a little bit of weather helm to help lift the boat to weather (and for safety; a boat with lee helm is dangerous!) However 8 degrees of weather helm is about the max you should go for if I recall my book on Sailtrim correctly.

It took me some time to understand that I needed to really tension the rig ( 25% on the uppers for a start) a new mainsail. ( in 17 years I am on my 3rd main & 5th jib & thinking of a 6Th)I have had 5 new forstays & have moved the top of the mast forwards 3 times to get it right to get the boat to reduce the weather helm. The result has been from so heavy that my wife refused to helm to now quite light & nice to steer up wind.It does not broach unless with the chute. I originally bought the Aeries to cope with the weight of the helm. The speed has increased to a point where I am quite satisfied. However, I cannot let the helm go for a second & concentration is paramount.

But not all sailing is upwind & in any swell one has to anticipate the roll of the boat. If one does then helm correction is minimal. If not then the helm has to go hard over. This is where the Raymarine AV100auto helm is so dangerous. It sometimes is so slow (even in fastest mode) that the boat will veere 70 degrees off course because the helm has not been activated in time. At that point it will cut out & lock the helm hard over. If I am below, the first I know is the boat then comes round with the helm locked & does a massive crash gybe. Not what one needs in any sort of wind. I have to get on deck, disconnect the pilot, sort the mainsheet & get the boat gybed back on course & re set. All hard work & dangerous when single handed.
The Aeries will let me wander all over the place but always bring the boat back on course- eventually!!!
I had it for over a year before I could get it to work at all & played with different vanes weights setups etc. Even simple things like stiffening the botton 40% of the vane with GRP made a difference.
I still cannot run down wind in swell because the boat accelerates too fast for the vane,or it is too light to move the vane, but one has to adapt

 

[Blueboatman]

Full battens in mainsails and bi or tri radial in headsail assembly, better cloth choices available have all helped a lot in reducing ‘baggy old sail’ syndrome ( for want of a better phrase).

Of course we still have the problem of Owners Stuff loading up the boat . Guilty ?

And above deck appendages and windage and dinghies in davits and cockpit enclosures

Poor old yacht designer trying to factor that lot in and still produce a light nimble joy to sail ...

 

[Roberto]

So, my question to the forum: Who on here actually has a directionally stable boat?

It depends of course on specific conditions, but I once lost the paddle of my Windpilot without knowing it, I just noticed the boat was somewhat less reactive and kept a wider track angle, instead of say +-10° around a given heading it went maybe +-25-30°, she sailed like that for about one hour while I scratched my head while trimming sails and adjusting the pilot, eventually I took a look over the transom and found the lower part of the paddle was missing.

btw, to WP users, it is better to secure the lower part of the paddle to the piece which is bolted in the swinging arm by means of a bolt, better than that slit pin which is flush with the paddle outside surface.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Seems to be a pattern of fitting a windvane for the "big trip", returning and no longer really needing it so turn it into cash because it adds little to the resale of the boat. Or buyer of boat with one does not really need it so does the same.

Not sure this is absolutely accurate, although fitted for a 'big trip' I kept the wind vane (Plastimo NAVIK unfortunately no longer made) on my last boat , but regrettably let it go with the boat when I sold it. The major problem I had with keeping the vane fitted for general sailing, was that it did get in the way when coming in to my mooring, getting the stern moorings on without tangling them up with the vane assembly became an art form, this wasn't helped by the aft slung rudder.
If I found another Navik at a price I could afford I would certainly consider fitting it to my current boat, as long as you learn to use them and accept their odd little quirks they are brilliant pieces of kit.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

So, my question to the forum: Who on here actually has a directionally stable boat?

Me*
I lash the tiller upwind all the time.

* depending on point of sail and correct sail trim.

 

[Minerva]

I used to have a Navik on my old boat too. I understood the mechanics of it and all, but in operation it was miraculous how it worked.

I would set the course on the navik, spend a couple of mins tweaking to trim the sails to get all the tell tails flying just perfectly. After that the tell tails may as well of been painted on the sails as the boat trucked along.

I will always remember the feeling of racing up the Sound of Jura, 50 degrees off the wind at 8kts on my folkboat. The navik was sailing perfectly and we were accompanied by a pod of dolphins for an hour as I sat in the companionway under the sprayhood listening to their clicks and drinking a cup of coffee.

 

[Roberto]

As to "Everything you wanted to know about pilots", Peter Foerthman (WindPilot inventor) wrote a very nice and detailed booklet about self-steering; I just noticed it is now available for purchase as e-book, though it has been under free download at the WindPilot web site for years, there is maybe some free copy to be found on the internet.

 

[GHA]

anything which says it will show "all you need to know" regarding anything to do with a boat.... obviously won't...

 

[Poignard]

I'll read it, but the first sentence made me think.

On our boat the most expensive electronic item is the MFD.

The Hydrovane wind gear was more expensive (almost than both the above put together!)

MFD?

 

[Poignard]

The colour of ham?

Mind you don't use the other word for 'ham' if you don't want this thread deleted

 

[Tranona]

Not sure this is absolutely accurate, although fitted for a 'big trip' I kept the wind vane (Plastimo NAVIK unfortunately no longer made) on my last boat , but regrettably let it go with the boat when I sold it. The major problem I had with keeping the vane fitted for general sailing, was that it did get in the way when coming in to my mooring, getting the stern moorings on without tangling them up with the vane assembly became an art form, this wasn't helped by the aft slung rudder.
If I found another Navik at a price I could afford I would certainly consider fitting it to my current boat, as long as you learn to use them and accept their odd little quirks they are brilliant pieces of kit.

I was thinking more of the examples in posts 59&61 on bigger boats going long distance cruising which may well have both, but decide when they finish they no longer need the windvane. Windvanes have always been more popular on smaller tiller steered boats (of the older type?) because they do make longer offshore passages much more feasible.

Like others I use my autopilot mostly for motoring or when getting the boat ready for sailing or back into the marina and for longer passages under sail when there is time to set the boat up and use the pilot to steer to the wind. Very relaxing.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I found the book 'The Windvane Self-steering Handbook' by Bill Morris very useful, it has a useful chapter on the more common windvanes available.
Another useful book was 'Self-steering under Sail' by Peter Christian Forthmann.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Tranona Ah So!

 

[Roberto]

anything which says it will show "all you need to know" regarding anything to do with a boat.... obviously won't...

In particular articles written for the internet :d