anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-known member
If the likes of Boeing and Airbus can't make a £million autopilot that'd handle an out of trim aircraft there's not a lot of hope of a £200 tillerpilot doing it....
Windvane pilots vs electric autopilots: all you need to know
- Thread starter Concerto
- Start date
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Both wind and electric autopilots benefit from sail trim. Neglect it at your peril.
I get the noise argument because one of the joys of sailing for me is the connection with nature so the less artificial intrusion the better. But the power argument doesn't make any sense when considering the initial purchase and installation costs of a wind vane.
I get the noise argument because one of the joys of sailing for me is the connection with nature so the less artificial intrusion the better. But the power argument doesn't make any sense when considering the initial purchase and installation costs of a wind vane.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Compared with the gear on a figaro, starting a t £ 15 K for the basics then a windvane is quite cheap. But of course the autopilot on a figaro is an exceptional piece of kit. One can pick up second hand wind vanes for circa £1500 & they will be quite servicable & last for years. My Aeries has outlasted 4 electric sets & will soon outlast the 5th. It has come to my aid on a number of times when the electric version just could not cope.
But to each his own & sailors will have their preferred systems. If it works for them then fair enough.
dgadee
Well-known member
The tiller pilot on my 9m and the wheelpilot on the 11m are only used under power. No good under sail. Both boats have small headsails and big mainsails, so there certainly can be lots of weather helm.
Maybe older boats with big headsails are easier on the systems. And perhaps newer boats (post 2000) are designed for easier helming. No idea really.
Maybe older boats with big headsails are easier on the systems. And perhaps newer boats (post 2000) are designed for easier helming. No idea really.
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Well yes, a top of the range new AP will cost more than a second hand wind vane! If you want to compare apples with frogs we could go on all day.
A TP10 or ST1000 is not in the same class as a Wind vane but the new cost of a wind vane is NOT £1500. It's at least double that. At £3000 we are well into some very high class electric AP solutions.
I have nothing against either. It's the false equivalence I don't like.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
Is it a case of the tail wagging the dog?
If lots of boats have weather helm, then why are tiller pilots generally not made to deal with that situation?
Surely if one knows that boats are a bit out of balance then the manufacturers should be out there designing a unit to cope with it; not saying, " Here is a bit of kit, you make your boat sail to suit our kit, because we cannot be bothered to get it right"
Daydream believer
Well-known member
My Raymarine AV100 cost me the original purchase price - I forget how much- plus £ 300 to have the sofware updated ( A con as it should have been right in the first place) plus it is going to cost a mighty few more squids to buy a replacement ram. I will be on my 5th autopilot. I will easily have reached the £ 3000 by the time I get that far & that does not count the £ 5000 claim for a new rudder when I ran aground because one suddenly turned me 60 degrees onto a bank & put me aground in a few minutes. in the Murray Firth.
Another one packed up off the Firth of Forth, 2 years earlier, contributing to a rescue by the RNLI late one night.
So If one wants to compare MY costs, the Aeries is cheaper- even if I had bought a new one, plus it would have been lighter, then I would probably have bought a monitor.
My Aeries has only cost me a couple of sets of steering lines that have begun to wear & a spare vane in 12 years.
However, I did state that my Aeries was second hand. I also accept that I need an electric autopilot for motoring & very light weather.
But to each his own
anoccasionalyachtsman
Well-known member
There aren't many boats built with chronic weather helm, they acquire it with age - increasing weight and shot sails.
dgadee
Well-known member
When I bought both boats I put new sails on. They were no doubt designed for a much heavier crew than the two of us (about 120k in total). The Dehler has sleeping space for 8 and the Seawolf for 5. So not really convinced by your suggestion.
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TernVI
Well-known member
I sail on a 42ft boat which can be steered upwind in F4 with one finger.
The rig is in good shape, we know how to set the sails and the rudder is moderately well balanced.
Also, we don't sail it on its ear.
Downwind in waves, the helm can be quite a workout to get the best out of the boat, you need to turn the wheel quick sometimes.
A racing autopilot for such a boat is a serious piece of kit. The motor will be powerful. The ram will need to be anchored to a well engineered part of the hull.
There are limits to what you should expect from a cheap add-on like an autohelm.
Likewise vane gears.
What do most actual sailors really want? to be able to leave the helm for short periods, mostly while motoring ?
That is the game changer which enables short handed sailing, anything else tends to be a bonus for many people.
You have to be on watch, most of the time you might as well be steering.
It's interesting to read the AYRS book on self steering.
Back in the 50s people made there own vane gear.
That really ought to be easier these days, what with the materials we have like carbon fibre.
The vane gears I see generally look like they were designed for ease of small scale manufacture in about 1968.
Why has nobody ever designed a production boat with vane gear built in?
Would it not be easier than bodging all those brackets on the back?
The rig is in good shape, we know how to set the sails and the rudder is moderately well balanced.
Also, we don't sail it on its ear.
Downwind in waves, the helm can be quite a workout to get the best out of the boat, you need to turn the wheel quick sometimes.
A racing autopilot for such a boat is a serious piece of kit. The motor will be powerful. The ram will need to be anchored to a well engineered part of the hull.
There are limits to what you should expect from a cheap add-on like an autohelm.
Likewise vane gears.
What do most actual sailors really want? to be able to leave the helm for short periods, mostly while motoring ?
That is the game changer which enables short handed sailing, anything else tends to be a bonus for many people.
You have to be on watch, most of the time you might as well be steering.
It's interesting to read the AYRS book on self steering.
Back in the 50s people made there own vane gear.
That really ought to be easier these days, what with the materials we have like carbon fibre.
The vane gears I see generally look like they were designed for ease of small scale manufacture in about 1968.
Why has nobody ever designed a production boat with vane gear built in?
Would it not be easier than bodging all those brackets on the back?
Tranona
Well-known member
I think that just reflects the fact that windvane gear is a minority interest, particularly for buyers of new boats where the demand seems almost non existent. Today's autopilots satisfy most buyers needs and are indeed almost standard fitment on new cruising boats. For the small number of new boat buyers that want vane gear the specialists seem to be able to meet the requirements, at least in the under 45' size range.
Gets back to the good old market rules - if there is potential demand then supply will follow. As you say the principles were established a long time ago, but there seems never to have been enough demand to justify any investment in moving it out of the toolroom and using of modern materials and processes.
Much the same issue with the less than satisfactory tiller pilots. They were a big leap forward 40 years ago with a huge pent up demand. By and large they were satisfactory, but once that pent up demand was met the potential market shrinks, volume falls and there is no incentive to invest in improvements, or for new suppliers to enter the market. Contrast that with below decks pilots primarily for wheel steered boats where not only have technology and hardware improved out of all recognition, but there are now 4 major players in the market whereas 15 years ago there was effectively only one. If you were in charge at Raymarine where would you put your money and effort?
A product I was involved with came on the market 30 years or so ago aimed at the existing population of boats, so mostly retrofit. Now not only is the biggest market new boats, but sales of the models more suited to older boats have plummeted.
In the strategic marketing jargon "Product Life Cycle" .
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TernVI
Well-known member
Indeed.
The market for tiller pilots has shrunk, partly because the market for tillers has shrunk.
30 years ago, tillers were not a bad idea on a 40ft boat.
These days wheels seem to dominate on anything with a bog and a cooker?
The market for tiller pilots has shrunk, partly because the market for tillers has shrunk.
30 years ago, tillers were not a bad idea on a 40ft boat.
These days wheels seem to dominate on anything with a bog and a cooker?
Koeketiene
Well-known member
Tranona
Well-known member
Yes, his'n'hers for when they can't agree on where to go. However that boat is well over 3m wide at the transom so plenty of space for them and they do have advantages if access over the transom for swimming etc is important.
Daydream believer
Well-known member
I thought that the 35 carbon edition with the flip over single wheel was a better solution. That could be centralised, or flipped port or stbd to suit the helms requirements. It also allowed access one side or the other as needed.
I do not know if the carbon edition is still made, but it seemed like a nice weekend cruiser/race yacht from the reviews at the time
I do not know if the carbon edition is still made, but it seemed like a nice weekend cruiser/race yacht from the reviews at the time
Blueboatman
Well-known member
Having had a small number of tiller pilots , the bigger ones do seem to offer better response rates
Presumably by adjusting the attachment point very slightly into the control arm of a vane gear , the response there can be calibrated too
Trim tab servo rudders in theory ( iirc) will sense yaw before the wind vane actuator or tiller pilot input is activated ..
I built such an “ ooh, dead clever” device years ago . With the aux rudder inclined to be on the point of being overbalanced ( see, I said it was dead clever like , it would hinge up and disengage , trim tab n all ) and I think ( I think ) this did actually happen .
It could and would also unerringly keep the boat on course +_30 degrees in flat calm , neglible forward movement , out in blue water calms .. which might not sound much but if you are becalmed out there at sea , motoring not an option , to have the boat pointing in the right direction and not going round in circles , was rather good for moral ?
As Tern summises, there seems to be room for further wind vane development .
Electrically my st6000 on a quadrant is hands down quieter quicker and just plain better than any TP I have bought and it is out of the weather .
Presumably by adjusting the attachment point very slightly into the control arm of a vane gear , the response there can be calibrated too
Trim tab servo rudders in theory ( iirc) will sense yaw before the wind vane actuator or tiller pilot input is activated ..
I built such an “ ooh, dead clever” device years ago . With the aux rudder inclined to be on the point of being overbalanced ( see, I said it was dead clever like , it would hinge up and disengage , trim tab n all ) and I think ( I think ) this did actually happen .
It could and would also unerringly keep the boat on course +_30 degrees in flat calm , neglible forward movement , out in blue water calms .. which might not sound much but if you are becalmed out there at sea , motoring not an option , to have the boat pointing in the right direction and not going round in circles , was rather good for moral ?
As Tern summises, there seems to be room for further wind vane development .
Electrically my st6000 on a quadrant is hands down quieter quicker and just plain better than any TP I have bought and it is out of the weather .
jamie N
Well-known member
To make a wind vane system is dead easy, if one really wants to do it, and has time/inclination/basic skills in a few things.
I'm lucky that I do, and even luckier in being a coward, so that to consider buying a £3K windvane, and then explaining it to LadyN, makes it an easy choice to spend time in the garage, with a few tools!
I'm lucky that I do, and even luckier in being a coward, so that to consider buying a £3K windvane, and then explaining it to LadyN, makes it an easy choice to spend time in the garage, with a few tools!
doug748
Well-known member
Neptune windvanes start at under £2000 new. I think they are ok. Just a point of information.
Kelpie
Well-known member
I think it's pretty valid to compare 2nd hand windvanes with brand new autopilots. Because you just don't see very many 2nd hand autopilots. I suppose it's a bit like engines, nobody takes a perfectly working one out of a boat and sells it. But plenty of people buy a boat with a vane on it which they then sell on. That's how I bought both of mine.
Tranona
Well-known member
Seems to be a pattern of fitting a windvane for the "big trip", returning and no longer really needing it so turn it into cash because it adds little to the resale of the boat. Or buyer of boat with one does not really need it so does the same.
