Windvane pilots vs electric autopilots: all you need to know

[Blueboatman]

I’ve read a fair few books , as you need to in order to have much chance of building something that actually works .
Foerthmann is good
And my fav is still Dijkstra’s Self steering for sailboats
Self-steering for sailboats: Amazon.co.uk: Dijkstra, Gerard: 9780914814177: Books
Partly because the units he describes are still those readily available !

 

[john_morris_uk]

MFD?

Multi Function Display (with it's associated AIS and antenna splitter and charting chips.)

 

[Daydream believer]

I was thinking more of the examples in posts 59&61 on bigger boats going long distance cruising which may well have both, but decide when they finish they no longer need the windvane. Windvanes have always been more popular on smaller tiller steered boats (of the older type?) because they do make longer offshore passages much more feasible.

Like others I use my autopilot mostly for motoring or when getting the boat ready for sailing or back into the marina and for longer passages under sail when there is time to set the boat up and use the pilot to steer to the wind. Very relaxing.

As you sugggested earlier, I bought my Aeries after a chap used it for an atlantic crossing.
What i do find odd is your comment ( Well not just you as many others make identical comments) that they keep the wind unit for longer passages.
I have a lift up gear so I do have to lower it before leaving port. However, I do it as a matter of course because of the unreliable raymarine. Apart from that I only have to angle the vane & hook on the steering lines to the tiller. So it takes about 45 seconds to set up. So why is it that sailors do not use them once out of the harbour & sails up?
I also note forumites talking about balancing things. But I doubt many can balance their boat on the run, or broad reach in a quartering sea.
My Stella would sail for miles with the geno sheeted in tight & the main eased a bit. But that had to be upwind & otherwise it was a no no.
In a breeze down wind & the Holman roll would soon have put paid to any bungee lovers

 

[Poignard]

Multi Function Display (with it's associated AIS and antenna splitter and charting chips.)

Thank you.

 

[TernVI]

..... However, I do it as a matter of course because of the unreliable raymarine. Apart from that I only have to angle the vane & hook on the steering lines to the tiller. So it takes about 45 seconds to set up. So why is it that sailors do not use them once out of the harbour & sails up?
....

Because the top priority most people want from an autopilot is to steer while they are putting the sails up?

 

[Tranona]

What i do find odd is your comment ( Well not just you as many others make identical comments) that they keep the wind unit for longer passages.

Not odd at all. While it may be true that those with smaller tiller steered boats might use windvanes more frequently, this is perhaps because they are more easily deployed and more importantly as you have said many time, tiller pilots leave a lot to be desired.

This is not the case with larger boats with inboard pilots that do work, particularly with wheel steered centre cockpit boats like John's where deploying a windvane is a lot more work. Connecting a windvane to wheel steering is not always easy, hence the popularity of the Hydrovane on such boats as it is independent of the main steering system. However they tend to take more time setting up and trimming so make more sense on longer passages.

The great thing about having so many choices is that the individual can choose what suits them. As I suggested earlier a windvane gear would not suit my boat or style of sailing, although I know of at least one 33 and one 37 that have fitted Hydrovanes successfully for long distance cruising. The Garmin autopilot is (so far) totally reliable, gives a choice of steering to wind, compass course or waypoint. Only downside is that the motor is right under the helm and a bit noisy. Fortunately unlike some modern boats mine is well balanced and directionally very stable, with neutral to touch of weather helm and often by just turning the wheel brake on a bit will steer itself for long periods, particularly to wind if properly trimmed. I could not live with a boat that needed constant attention, no matter what its other qualities.

 

[Roberto]

Well not just you as many others make identical comments) that they keep the wind unit for longer passages.

In my case a few different reasons: my coastal cruising tend to be shorter and with a lot more deviations from a straight course, the electric pilot is way more practical; but more important reason is possible theft: the WindPilot can be taken off by releasing just two bolts, it then neatly folds in two, about an umbrella size . The bolts are conveniently placed about 50cm above water level, meaning a couple of thieves in a small boat with an Allen key could take it away in a couple of minutes I am not leaving it there if I am not on the boat during the night.
Also, we hoist the dinghy at the stern gantry: in longer passages the inflatable goes in the locker while the WP steers, during coastal cruising the WP goes in the locker and the dinghy is kept at the gantry.
r.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I’m worried about the suggestion that large mainsail = lots of weather helm. IMHO poorly trimmed sails or sailing the boat on her ear and/or poorly set up rigging = lots of weather helm (unless the yacht designer genuinely didn’t know what they were doing and designed a complete dog of a boat. )

I agree that some boats are harder to trim than others, but persistent large amounts of weather helm is slow sailing and somethings wrong.

IIRC you need a little bit of weather helm to help lift the boat to weather (and for safety; a boat with lee helm is dangerous!) However 8 degrees of weather helm is about the max you should go for if I recall my book on Sailtrim correctly.

I once had a long conversation with a chap who owned a Nonsuch 26. This is a beamy cat boat style hull with a fin keel and a spade rudder. It has a single, free standing mast with a large windsurfer type sail. He told me he would oftenl broach running downwind as the leverage of the single sail overpowered the steering.

In the context of my own boat I did a fair bit of research into weatherhelm. The correct amount of weatherhelm is between 2 and 2.5 degr and contributes to lift; beyond this the rudder is acting as a brake.
A properly profiled rudder of 5 sqft with an aspect ratio of 2, will generate a drag of about 26 pounds at 6 kts and 10degr. or as much as a fixed 3 blade prop. In my boat and in relation to overall drag that would entail a loss in speed of 0.7 kts. The same rudder, but as a flat plate would cause 69 pounds of resistance and a loss in speed of 1.9kts (that's why I know).

On self steering: On the wind (most) any boat is inherently stable. I discovered this quite early when I learnt to balance my father's fin keel C&C 25 to steer herself to weather while single handing. (Later, when I would sail two up with female company the range of self steering benefits unexpectedly expanded). The really interesting aspects of self steering, however, are broad reaching and running and it is precisely here that even a many mechanical and electronic self steering systems seem to struggle.

 

[oilybilge]

Why does my wee tiller pilot thing go off wildly after a minute or two? I have done the double circles.

My TP22 has been doing this since I bought it last year. Sometimes it works fine, and sometimes it pushes the tiller hard over and round I go. It nearly steered me onto the Richard Montgomery last week. My hunch is it's something obstructing the gimbal, or maybe the gimbal itself is broken.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

My TP22 has been doing this since I bought it last year. Sometimes it works fine, and sometimes it pushes the tiller hard over and round I go. It nearly steered me onto the Richard Montgomery last week. My hunch is it's something obstructing the gimbal, or maybe the gimbal itself is broken.

do you have your phone in your pocket?

I have had 3 years of excellent service from my TP22. And a lot of that has been off/down wind sailing.

 

[oilybilge]

do you have your phone in your pocket?

I have had 3 years of excellent service from my TP22. And a lot of that has been off/down wind sailing.

No, I've eliminated all those possibilities. I even tried moving the exhaust hose as there was a tiny magnetic field coming from it. Still got the malfunction. I'm certain it's something internal.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

No, I've eliminated all those possibilities. I even tried moving the exhaust hose as there was a tiny magnetic field coming from it. Still got the malfunction. I'm certain it's something internal.

send it back for repair.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

My hunch is it's something obstructing the gimbal, or maybe the gimbal itself is broken.

Incredibly unlikely, under the masking tape you can see a translucent bubble, and that's the protection for the gimbal. The TP range is pretty well designed really, don't lump them in with Autohelms.

 

[geem]

We have both a powerful below deck autopilot and a Wind pilot self steering. Both have there advantages and we wouldnt be without either of them. We dont find that perfect balancing of the sails is important for either system but if you do choose to balance the sails, you will reduce weather helm.
On long trips it's so nice to use the Windpilot. There is something great about being hundreds of miles from land sailing to the wind using a steering system powered by wind and water.
Having a completely separate system to the AP is also handy. Even though we have a complete spare autopilot, enough power to run the AP night and day, it's hard to beat the smile the Windpilot brings when using it. Setting it up is a piece of cake once you know how

 

[oilybilge]

Incredibly unlikely, under the masking tape you can see a translucent bubble, and that's the protection for the gimbal. The TP range is pretty well designed really, don't lump them in with Autohelms.

Ah thanks. That's useful to know.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Incredibly unlikely, under the masking tape you can see a translucent bubble, and that's the protection for the gimbal. The TP range is pretty well designed really, don't lump them in with Autohelms.
View attachment 117245

Is that a DIY remote fitted?

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Is that a DIY remote fitted?

It is. I wrote it up on here, but despite reloading the pictures a few times the site kept deleting them and I gave up.

Words here A how to - add wireless remote to Simrad tillerpilot

If you want to do it I can send you the pictures over WeTransfer.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

It is. I wrote it up on here, but despite reloading the pictures a few times the site kept deleting them and I gave up.

Words here A how to - add wireless remote to Simrad tillerpilot

If you want to do it I can send you the pictures over WeTransfer.

hmmmm..... very tempting. Maybe a winter project coming up ?

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

hmmmm..... very tempting. Maybe a winter project coming up ?

I've just scrolled through the whole of that thread that I gave a link to. The pics are all there. But do look at @AngusMcDoon's clever jobbie that he talks about in the same thread.

 

[Daydream believer]

Because the top priority most people want from an autopilot is to steer while they are putting the sails up?

??????? I did say-- once the sails were up.But if it is windy I can set the jib in hard, set the Aeries & hoist the main just off the wind OK without using the engine---- if I need to,