Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Poor upwind. Asymmetric performance. Can't heave to.
Why Junk Riggs are good for CRUISING? WHY NOT?
- Thread starter rael dobkins
- Start date
chriss999
Well-known member
poorish upwind but good enough unless racing
I’ve not noticed asymmetric performance but I don’t sail with my eyes glued to the GPS so I probably wouldn’t notice
Can heave to, so far anyway.
The thread is about cruising, and I’m fine with mine.
btw in coastal cruise go be noticed that many many yachts just motor upwind anyway.
The other thing I’ve remembered that junks should be marked down on, is that they look frightfully untidy. And in the yacht retail market that is a major factor.
Munz
New member
Many of the boats Tom Colvin designed were Junk rigged as were most of the boats he designed/build for himself.
However he did convert the last one (a small cargo schooner) from Junk to Gaff, but apparently this was for improved cargo handling, I guess not a major consideration for most sailors these days
However he did convert the last one (a small cargo schooner) from Junk to Gaff, but apparently this was for improved cargo handling, I guess not a major consideration for most sailors these days
wanzap1
Member
I can furl my headsail and reef my main all from the cockpit. I rarely go on decks when sailing. I think lazy Jack's, stack packs, roller furling and single line main reefing means a well set-up Bermudan can be not hugely more drama to reef than a junk. Admittedly I have no experience of junk rig.
rael dobkins
Member
Very True, I can't feel any difference between tacks ether.
I guess only junk rig sailors which are usually ex Bermuda sailors get it.... Mind you don't know any junk riggers that switched to Bermudas...
chriss999
Well-known member
NealB of this parish switched back.
Ed: I’ve met another chap who did, but because junk rigs are hard to find.
(Ed2: I know a coromandel for sale, good rig, hull needs work so prob not expensive. No connection. If anyone is interested PM me & I can put you in touch with the seller)
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DownWest
Well-known member
Met a familly in the Algarve that sailed down in a Junk rigged boat from UK. He would never have one again.
rael dobkins
Member
That means nothing truly, What sail did he have? what was he trying to do with it?? could he sail at all???
I guess we're all right then, the best rig is one the captain likes the most. I like them cheap, simple, low stress and easy to reef. Though on my engineless Proas I like them to go to windward too........ And they do.
Black Sheep
Well-known member
I know the guy! He sails from my club. And he's been sleeping with my wife...
No need for explanation. If you look at what people in this thread have said about junks, it's all about ease of reefing, low stress (both on the rig and the skipper!), simplicity, robustness etc. Nobody has said that they are faster than Bermudian. Having said that, a well set up modern junk will sail perfecty well; many of them at least as well as the equivalent Bermudian (excluding super-fast highly crewed racing machines). But if racing is your bag, I wouldn't normally suggest Junk.
I disagree; that isn't "the key" safety requirement. Important yes - and a modern junk will beat off a lee shore just as well as a Bermudian. But not "the key" requirement that supercedes all others
Other safety requirements include the ability to make sail quickly; to reduce sail quickly and safely; to be robust against problems such as a wrapped foresail; to be forgiving of helmsman error, eg accidental gybes.
Junks got a reputation for being poor upwind back in the days of flat cut sails. That reputation is no longer deserved by modern junks with cambered sails.
The jury is out on asymmetric performance. Some skippers think they experience it, others not. Either way, does it matter?
Heaving to in the traditional way of helm down and backed jib is only one way of stopping a boat. Of course it's not available to any boat with just one sail (including cat-rigged bermudians). But I would think a junk schooner could do it (does anyone know for sure?)
Good to hear you have nothing against junks! It's certainly true that many junkies (myself included) have a certain missionary zeal. But I think you underestimate what would be needed to supplant the "industry standard" rig. First, remember that the western junk is a recent thing, and has only started being competetive (with cambered and split sails) in the last 10 to 20 years. A boat designed for Junk will be different from one designed for Bermudian (mast position different; scantlings in that area stronger; less strength needed in other areas; interior accommodation must allow for keel-stepped mast). And of course in the days of RCD there's a lot of expense to certify the new design. All of which means that there's a very large cost for a manufacturer to switch to offering Junk even as an option. Before any manufacturer did that, they would need to be very sure that there was a very strong market, which means that the Junk would have to beat the Bermudian in pretty well every respect, by quite a considerable margin, to justify the financial risk.
The junk does have limitations, but not the ones you identified earlier. A keel stepped mast interrupts the interior accommodation. On my 18 footer, I find that battens intrude on the foredeck space. There's lots of string in the cockpit. And there are few good junks available on the market. Doing your own conversion is a significant chunk of effort and probably only an option for a minority.
On the matter of performance. The best people to judge are the handicappers. When I converted my Bradwell 18 to junk, I contacted Byron to get a revised handicap. We exchanged a lot of information about the details of the rig. The final handicap ended up very close to the original handicap (with spinnaker):
Remember this is a home made rig, with a home made sail, and a mast that I made much heavier than it needed to be. It's the first time I'd ever made a mast or a sail.
So there you are - a home converted junk with an overweight mast is officially slower than the bermudian , by about 0.5%, on a circular course. So if you're into racing, don't go Junk!
canvey
Active member
Why did that guy who went to the Algarve say he regretted owning one?
They aren't, but not for the reasons you are suggesting. I would say it's more due to the conservative nature of the buying market; and the domination of class based designs. Folks have gotten used to the aesthetics of a Bermuda rig and no company to my knowledge has continued to invest in the development of them after Westfield (Kingfisher) and Newbridge.
If a fraction of the R&D money that has gone into pointless, for most purposes, racing rigs, I'm sure they would be equal in every way.
I'm really interested in learning more about them and comparison to other alternative rigs such as cats. I think having sail area up high, instead of pointy Bermudas, make a lot of sense. I think the rapidity of lowering them and general laziness of employing them makes a lot of sense for a cruiser. Ditto, the relatively low cost/self-makeable nature of the sails.
I was struck by the story of Haslar sailing across the Atlantic in a Folkboat and not having to change out of his slippers and cardigan to do so. Also how, in the far east, the sailors used to sit out tropic storms by just lowering not just the sail but also mast until it blew over.
Never sailed one though.
I'm guessing European type approval legislation also has a part to play in their non-existence in the commercial market. I suppose manufacturers have to pay for all sorts of testing, no?
I wish someone made all in one kits of them, so lower the price a bit.
Interested to know more, especially about the availability of masts. Is it necessary to make a wooden one?
They aren't, but not for the reasons you are suggesting. I would say it's more due to the conservative nature of the buying market; and the domination of class based designs. Folks have gotten used to the aesthetics of a Bermuda rig and no company to my knowledge has continued to invest in the development of them after Westfield (Kingfisher) and Newbridge.
If a fraction of the R&D money that has gone into pointless, for most purposes, racing rigs, I'm sure they would be equal in every way.
I'm really interested in learning more about them and comparison to other alternative rigs such as cats. I think having sail area up high, instead of pointy Bermudas, make a lot of sense. I think the rapidity of lowering them and general laziness of employing them makes a lot of sense for a cruiser. Ditto, the relatively low cost/self-makeable nature of the sails.
I was struck by the story of Haslar sailing across the Atlantic in a Folkboat and not having to change out of his slippers and cardigan to do so. Also how, in the far east, the sailors used to sit out tropic storms by just lowering not just the sail but also mast until it blew over.
Never sailed one though.
I'm guessing European type approval legislation also has a part to play in their non-existence in the commercial market. I suppose manufacturers have to pay for all sorts of testing, no?
I wish someone made all in one kits of them, so lower the price a bit.
Interested to know more, especially about the availability of masts. Is it necessary to make a wooden one?