Which Liferaft

[NormanS]

What I am saying is that where you sail is really little different from most of the UK coastline. You constantly refer to "Lake Solent" as it if is somehow a peaceful little pond with no dangers. True the central south coast does have much greater coverage from rescue services and many safe havens, but as you move away either east or west that changes rapidly. The Western Approaches are just as remote and hostile as is the Bristol Channel and the east coast from Suffolk northwards. The level of rescue services reflects the level of demand

Not sure whether you have actually sailed in the English Channel but it is a pretty challenging area with not only the natural hazards but the busiest waterway in the world for commercial shipping going east and west plus a constant stream of ferries and fast Cats going north south. And don't forget the large fishing fleet particularly in the south west. Hardly surprising that the majority of the yacht founderings in the data I referred to earlier that resulted in raft deployments or loss of life occurred in these water or the southern Celtic Sea.

So I don't see why your requirements should be any different for sailing where you are currently compared with if you moved down south. As you see from what others say your choice of carrying an inflated dinghy is still common even though there is little evidence that it is effective on its own in an emergency situation where the parent boat is lost.

Again, you're only arguing with yourself.
I would take you up on one very minor point. You say that I "constantly refer to "Lake Solent"". I think you must be mixing me up with someone else. I have seen the term used, but I'm fairly certain that I have never used it before. Maybe you can show a previous instance of my use of the term, which seems to have hit a raw nerve.

 

[seeSimon]

There's a thing ...

If I was to choose a 'raft' - I think I would choose a Valise version ... but then it would not be suitable for permanent mount on deck / pushpit etc. That is the realm of the hard Canister version.

I have noted on various boats with 'rafts' that they have IMHO too large a raft ... having had experience of a Life Raft in proper sea conditions - not in a swimming pool - I can say without hesitation - that a large raft with only a person or 2 in - can be extremely unstable - even dangerous.
I have a 25ft boat registered with Latvians as up to 5 persons ... I would only put a 2 man 'raft'. I have a 38ft boat which if I put on Latvian Registry would be 6 persons ... I would only put a 4 man 'raft'.

Agreed. Very good point about the "too large" rafts, and one seemingly either unheard of, or forgotten by many?

I've seen MT rafts cart-wheel away down wind, then fly like a kite. Even when part loaded they can be capsized by strong winds. One reason to stream the drogue asap.

MN survival training in the "good old days" (pre the global levelling down...imho... of STCW) included a day AT SEA in a liferaft. We had to abandon ship, dressed in normal work wear + SOLAS JLJ, swim 100m ish to the raft and board. Stay there all day...we were all,sick. VERY sick, which we then sat in, mixed with p1ss for the rest of the day... Maybe you did similar?

Hence, the scenarios put by some, where they seem to think they'd survive in a raft, in weather that had sunk an otherwise sound yacht seem rather fantastical.
Particularly off a rocky lee shore...

 

[seeSimon]

My comment was in reply to yours to the other guy ...

I am fully aware that commercial are required to have a certain number fitted with Hydrostatics ... but the Hydro does not cause inflation ... it only releases the holding straps.
My point was aimed at stating "YOU pull the painter" primarily

That's not quite correct.
Modern hydyostatic release units (usually Hammar brand these days) incorporate a weak link to fasten the raft painter to the ship.
After the unit releases the raft, the still-attached weak link gives sufficient tug to inflate the raft.
The buoyancy of the fully inflated raft then breaks the weak link, leaving an inflated raft on the surface, the ship having sunk.

CM Hammar - Better Solutions for Safety at Sea

 

[seeSimon]

I've a GK24, and really don't have space enough for a liferaft/valise. I don't want to tow a rubber dinghy, and having one deflated on the foredeck isn't an effective way of having an emergency escape craft.
For me, the most likely solution is to have a survival suit & PLB, although I've not bought a suit yet.

I'm in a similar position.no pushpit even...no space on foredeck, unless raft blocks the escape hatch.

I have 100% SOLAS immersion suits, 200%inflatable LJs, 2 x lifebuoys (with light n drogue), PLB, AIS MOB beacon, 2 x VHFs...

Currently contemplating voluntary fit of either a proper EPIRB or AIS transponder. Can't decide...

My go-ashore inflatable dinghy has to go in the cabin, if not towed.

My local race committee now REQUIRE a liferaft, even for summer daylight races in coastal water (see other thread on this). NOT happy!

3 berths, one will be full with a raft + a dinghy! Ffs....

 

[seeSimon]

4 man cheapest I can find is over 1000 quid ...

Please link to one at 750 .. I may be interest6ed !!

Its interesting actually that racing classes - some mandate a L/R in serviced condition ... when being in a race is probably the most likely sailing actuvity that you would be rescued in reasonably quickly - even if offshore ..

Before getting to involved with costs, both purchasing and servicing (and service intervals, for that matter) be sure to compare approvals standards.

Eg,
Primarily for ease of stowage, and manual handling, I would consider a small lightweight raft such as those Lazilas coastal, but they are "not good enough" for some that believe they know best...eg my local race committee!

The small aviation rafts may be lightweight, but they are not cheaper. £1450. Also "not approved" for my intended use.

Revere 4 Man Aero Compact Life Raft w/ Canopy - Pirates Cave Chandlery

 

[dansaskip]

I think the cradle mount OUTSIDE the pushpit is the right solution, eliminating all the painful issues you correctly point out. Just pull the pin and the raft is deployed. And boat motion will be least back there.

I quite agree that this is, in an ideal world the right solution - however in practical terms it is not always possible for a number reasons. We don't all own a big enough boat, weight aft and space preclude fitting a liferaft like this and then there are transom hung rudders, double enders, windvane self steering gear etc
so we have to arrive at a compromise as to where we keep the liferaft

 

[Dockhead]

I'm in a similar position.no pushpit even...no space on foredeck, unless raft blocks the escape hatch.

I have 100% SOLAS immersion suits, 200%inflatable LJs, 2 x lifebuoys (with light n drogue), PLB, AIS MOB beacon, 2 x VHFs...

Currently contemplating voluntary fit of either a proper EPIRB or AIS transponder. Can't decide...

My go-ashore inflatable dinghy has to go in the cabin, if not towed.

My local race committee now REQUIRE a liferaft, even for summer daylight races in coastal water (see other thread on this). NOT happy!

3 berths, one will be full with a raft + a dinghy! Ffs....

How fast can you get your immersion suit on? I have a quite light and easy one -- a drysuit designed for kitesurfers. But even that one I doubt I could don in a hectic abandon ship crisis.

You can buy a very light 2-person aircraft liferaft: Superior HALO+ Liferaft Only 10kg and very compact. Only single tube so not worth much in really bad weather, but might be ok to fulfill racing rules.

Why would you choose EITHER EPIRB OR AIS? These devices are not substitutes for each other!

A cheaper, more compact substitute for an EPIRB, however, is a PLB, and maybe preferable in a small boat because you can keep it on your person.

 

[Dockhead]

I quite agree that this is, in an ideal world the right solution - however in practical terms it is not always possible for a number reasons. We don't all own a big enough boat, weight aft and space preclude fitting a liferaft like this and then there are transom hung rudders, double enders, windvane self steering gear etc
so we have to arrive at a compromise as to where we keep the liferaft

You are right, and I shouldn't have written "THE right solution". Rather "A good solution in many cases." Thanks for the correction.

 

[webcraft]

How fast can you get your immersion suit on? I have a quite light and easy one -- a drysuit designed for kitesurfers. But even that one I doubt I could don in a hectic abandon ship crisis.

You can buy a very light 2-person aircraft liferaft: Superior HALO+ Liferaft Only 10kg and very compact. Only single tube so not worth much in really bad weather, but might be ok to fulfill racing rules.

Why would you choose EITHER EPIRB OR AIS? These devices are not substitutes for each other!

A cheaper, more compact substitute for an EPIRB, however, is a PLB, and maybe preferable in a small boat because you can keep it on your person.

 

[Refueler]

Agreed. Very good point about the "too large" rafts, and one seemingly either unheard of, or forgotten by many?

I've seen MT rafts cart-wheel away down wind, then fly like a kite. Even when part loaded they can be capsized by strong winds. One reason to stream the drogue asap.

MN survival training in the "good old days" (pre the global levelling down...imho... of STCW) included a day AT SEA in a liferaft. We had to abandon ship, dressed in normal work wear + SOLAS JLJ, swim 100m ish to the raft and board. Stay there all day...we were all,sick. VERY sick, which we then sat in, mixed with p1ss for the rest of the day... Maybe you did similar?

Hence, the scenarios put by some, where they seem to think they'd survive in a raft, in weather that had sunk an otherwise sound yacht seem rather fantastical.
Particularly off a rocky lee shore...

I did mine outside Plymouth Sound in wintry weather ..... we were in working Blues and LJ ... had to jump of STY TECTONA and as you say - swim to the raft ... board and huddle in there till College Bods decided we'd had enough.

They had forgotten to give us the pump - so we could not inflate the floor - which led to myself and a couple others suffering hypothermia. We called to them - but they said after that they just thought we were being typical Cadets yelling for sake of it.

It was a terrible experience and one that I shall never forget.

Later when Survival Training was entered as a requirement for Syllabus - I contacted the College for confirmation of completing the course .... but was declined as College did not record individual names attending the course - only the Group Class ID. By then of course HS&E had caused Colleges to change to using swimming pools for training ... forgive me if I say that's a joke ! A swimming pool ????

I vowed after that - if I ever abandoned ship - I would be in a hard Lifeboat !! Technically as soon as gained my Stripes - I was in charge of a LB anyway ... rafts were last resort.

 

[Refueler]

That's not quite correct.
Modern hydyostatic release units (usually Hammar brand these days) incorporate a weak link to fasten the raft painter to the ship.
After the unit releases the raft, the still-attached weak link gives sufficient tug to inflate the raft.
The buoyancy of the fully inflated raft then breaks the weak link, leaving an inflated raft on the surface, the ship having sunk.

CM Hammar - Better Solutions for Safety at Sea

We all know that if YOU don't pull the painter - that eventually the raft will get to the extent of painter length and because its tethered - will cause raft to inflate.

ALL Hydrostatic's are designed to have weak-link - for the express purpose that raft is not pulled under if ship sinks.

Being a fully trained Professional Ships Officer - it was always drilled into us - DO NOT RELY on the tethered painter as by then the raft is at a distance from you ...

 

[jamie N]

How fast can you get your immersion suit on?

2 minutes. They're designed that they must be reasonably simple enough to don in 2 minutes to gain certification. I've done this a number of times, and it's a relatively low bar, as they're really very easy to put on.

Later when Survival Training was entered as a requirement for Syllabus - I contacted the College for confirmation of completing the course .... but was declined as College did not record individual names attending the course - only the Group Class ID. By then of course HS&E had caused Colleges to change to using swimming pools for training ... forgive me if I say that's a joke ! A swimming pool ????

At RGIT in Aberdeen, they converted the swimming pool into an environmental tank, with the facility of being able to improvise 'poor' weather; a big choppy swell and (very) heavy rain, accompanied by 'thunder and lightning' effects. It was very effective and realistic.
As a bloke who'd spent a portion of the '70's swimming off of the back of proper commercial submarines, it was realistic!

 

[Ray Purchase]

One that can be serviced locally to you without much hassle.

 

[Tranona]

Again, you're only arguing with yourself.
I would take you up on one very minor point. You say that I "constantly refer to "Lake Solent"". I think you must be mixing me up with someone else. I have seen the term used, but I'm fairly certain that I have never used it before. Maybe you can show a previous instance of my use of the term, which seems to have hit a raw nerve.

I would take you up on one very minor point. You say that I "constantly refer to "Lake Solent"". I think you must be mixing me up with someone else. I have seen the term used, but I'm fairly certain that I have never used it before.

You may not have used it before but presumably when choosing to use it you had a clear idea of what you were trying to convey.

 

[NormanS]

You may not have used it before but presumably when choosing to use it you had a clear idea of what you were trying to convey.

Yes, I meant precisely what I said. In case you don't understand, I was pointing out the difference between sailing in an area where all marine resources are readily available, and sailing where you are very much on your own. I would have thought that was fairly clear to most people.

 

[Channel Sailor]

I hired for a week a WAypoint one, the 10kg light weight 4 person one as linked above. For light weight and compact size it is impressive. I choose it for a summer English Channel short cruise, four persons on board. As you might guess, I have not used it in anger nor seen it inflated.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, I meant precisely what I said. In case you don't understand, I was pointing out the difference between sailing in an area where all marine resources are readily available, and sailing where you are very much on your own. I would have thought that was fairly clear to most people.

But where you sail is not unique in this respect as I explained at length. No need to make a big thing of it.

 

[Tranona]

Right on cue today's Saving Lives at Sea featured a rescue from a yacht foundering on the southern edge of the Goodwin Sands on a rising tide and beam on wind. 2m swell and a confused sea. The boat was stuck by its fin keel and the port bilge was pounding on the sand. The Atlantic RIB took all 3 crew off by going alongside the higher starboard windward side not without difficulty as it required a leap down into the RIB.

It is a good illustration of how difficult it is to deploy a liferaft or dinghy in these conditions. For example the port pushpit where rafts are often stowed and launched from was uderwater much of the time. The idealistic notion that you wait until the boat is sinking deploy the raft then step in is just unrealistic. The back of this boat was cluttered with gantries, huge solar panels and a sloping stern with no ladder and even if the raft was deployed successfully it would be a challenge to get into it without jumping into the sea. Indeed it is a feature of many of the reports of foundering that crew entered the sea and swum to the raft.

Well worth a watch

 

[Sparrowhawk]

We bought a Waypoint 4 Person Coastal Single Tube Liferaft. It has the huge advantage over the Lalizas version of a self-erecting canopy.

I bought this because my partner would never have been able to extract the (ancient) valise from the cockpit locker it has lived in since it was last serviced in 2010, and even I found it a struggle.

The Waypoint is not cheap, and not something I would like to spend more than a few hours in, but better than no liferaft. Sailing offshore in a small boat is a constant series of compromises.

- W

We did the same as Webcraft. A 4 man Waypoint. It’s very light but expensive. Our grab bag is attached and has water, PLB, VHF and a LED flare. We cruise down the SW coast and usually tow a dinghy too.

 

[seeSimon]

I had this dilemma when I had to replace my Liferaft and thought that one of these lightweight 2 man jobs might be just the thing. But then looking more deeply into it discovered that yes they are not really rated as a liferaft and furthermore the service interval was just a year ( pretty sure I remember right here) so I discounted the idea and settled on a 4 man in a canister. Still it is a pity that no-one makes a decent 2man proper liferaft but I guess there is not enough demand

Does anyone know what the big fast boat, single handed/short handed around the world racers carry? ...out of curiosity...