Which Liferaft

[Cspirit]

I’d appreciate the Forum’s comments on the above. Like many others here, I’ve sailed for around fifty years, and so for many of these years a half inflated Avon served as a notional last resort. In latter years I had a Liferaft on the stern but of course, never used.

I now mainly sail single handed (the dog is learning but her knots are rubbish) so my daughters are nagging me to think safety, so lifejacket, PLB, etc. I’ve downsized to a 27 ft motorsailer (an LM27) but of course, stowage space is limited so although I could possibly fit a canister raft on the aft rail, it’s a bit tight and I’d prefer something smaller that I could stow under the aft deck.

So, I’ve been looking at the 2 or 4 person ‘doughnut’ compact leisure rafts made by Lazilas and others which pack up small and weigh under half the weight of a conventional valise or canister raft. Clearly, as the vendors state, these are not ‘proper’ life rafts but are halfway between a raft and a lifejacket.

I hired a standard valise raft for a trip in the Spring but at 35kg I’m not sure that my fast approaching 80 year old body is capable of lifting this from the cabin to overboard in an emergency, so a canister on the stern is probably the only realistic option, hence I’m considering the doughnuts.

Apologies for the long context for my question but does anyone have any experience of these?

Thanks, Bob

 

[Tranona]

Don't bother with a liferaft unless you are going seriously offshore. However if it makes you and your family feel better spend an inordinate amount of mony on something you will never use - and even if you did have a need probably would not do the job anyway.

 

[dunedin]

Where is your cruising grounds?

Tranona's "don't bother with a liferaft" is probably reasonable advice for sailing around the crowded Solent / Poole area, where another vessel and/or lifeboat is rarely more than a few minutes away.

If your cruising grounds are in more remote waters where you need to be much more self sufficient then it may be a different scenario.

 

[Refueler]

Its one of those :

Great to have and not need ..... Bad to need and not have ..

I find myself in similar as OP ... what to do ? I have thought about a secondhand about to expire or recent expired valise raft - but as OP - its stowage.

I gave up on the half inflated Redcrest ... was a PITA !! and I could not see myself in it - pumping it up in a bad sea ...

 

[sigma38dave]

There’s a Lalizas raft that’s really light, about 10kg ideal for coastal and in the unlikely event you need it you’ll be able to lift it up.

A good mate now 78 bought one this year for the same reasons.

I’ll have a look for a link

Lalizas Compact Liferaft - Leisure Raft | Force 4 Chandlery

 

[Refueler]

There’s a Lalizas raft that’s really light, about 10kg ideal for coastal and in the unlikely event you need it you’ll be able to lift it up.

I’ll have a look for a link

Lalizas Compact Liferaft - Leisure Raft | Force 4 Chandlery

Here at Lalizas ....
LALIZAS COASTAL COMPACT Liferaft

 

[Tranona]

Where is your cruising grounds?

Tranona's "don't bother with a liferaft" is probably reasonable advice for sailing around the crowded Solent / Poole area, where another vessel and/or lifeboat is rarely more than a few minutes away.

If your cruising grounds are in more remote waters where you need to be much more self sufficient then it may be a different scenario.

Not sure there is any evidence that there is more likelihood of a yacht sinking and therefore possibly needing a liferaft in your part of the UK than in mine. It is so rare and randomly distributed - at least according to the extensive data that I looked at 10 years ago going back a further 30 or so. Since the incidence has fallen significantly, at least according to available reports. Better forecasting, AIS etc and better boats/skippers all helping. Main causes in the past are bad weather, collisions and structural failure (almost all racing boats)

 

[dunedin]

Not sure there is any evidence that there is more likelihood of a yacht sinking and therefore possibly needing a liferaft in your part of the UK than in mine. It is so rare and randomly distributed - at least according to the extensive data that I looked at 10 years ago going back a further 30 or so. Since the incidence has fallen significantly, at least according to available reports. Better forecasting, AIS etc and better boats/skippers all helping. Main causes in the past are bad weather, collisions and structural failure (almost all racing boats)

The difference is time to rescue from another craft. I have sailed many days for 8 hours or more without being more than 10 miles from the coast and yet never seeing another vessel all day. Probably unlikely where you sail.
And, even very close to shore in the busy inner Hebrides, stood by a MayDay casualty whilst the RNLI took over an hour to get there. On the more remote West side of the Outer Hebrides there are no lifeboats at all, and can take several hours to transit through the few gaps from the East side.
The main risks which liferaft covers in these situations are fire, holing the hull by hitting debris or otherwise flooding. These events do happen - but in busy places rescue is usually close to hand.

 

[Dockhead]

Don't bother with a liferaft unless you are going seriously offshore. However if it makes you and your family feel better spend an inordinate amount of mony on something you will never use - and even if you did have a need probably would not do the job anyway.

The waters around the British Isles are cold, and survival time immersed in them is short.

I sailed for decades around Florida and the Caribbean without a life raft, and didn't think about it.

But in these waters, I wouldn't leave home without a life raft (and anyway it's a legal requirement for UK-flagged boats over 45'). Flooding is not the only situation which might require you to abandon ship -- there's also the horror of fire.

Maybe day sailing only, in the Solent only, in summer only, where you're never out of sight of another vessel. But in my book, not anywhere else.

 

[Tranona]

The difference is time to rescue from another craft. I have sailed many days for 8 hours or more without being more than 10 miles from the coast and yet never seeing another vessel all day. Probably unlikely where you sail.
And, even very close to shore in the busy inner Hebrides, stood by a MayDay casualty whilst the RNLI took over an hour to get there. On the more remote West side of the Outer Hebrides there are no lifeboats at all, and can take several hours to transit through the few gaps from the East side.
The main risks which liferaft covers in these situations are fire, holing the hull by hitting debris or otherwise flooding. These events do happen - but in busy places rescue is usually close to hand.

Little to do with communications, speed of rescue remoteness from land - there are just very few if any founderings of yachts around the UK coast. The things you mention are all potential causes - but they don't happen in anything like the numbers people imagine. Happy to be proved wrong if you can provide solid evidence of people in small yachts in UK waters who died because they did not have access to a liferaft.

As I said the main causes are bad weather, collisions and structural failure. Fire rarely comes up nor does holing from hitting debris.

I must stress that this is UK coastal waters and of course if you look wider you will find plenty of evidence that founderings occur including for reasons you mention and that lives are saved by liferafts or probably lost because of the lack of one, although for obvious reasons there is little detail on such events. It is also a very different picture if you are looking at small commercial vessels particularly fishing boats where liferafts and other safety gear is compulsory. However such boats operate in a completely different way for longer periods in more extreme weather and if you look at the MAIB reports of such founderings you will see that there is little in common with yachts.

The OP has a well found small motor sailor for coastal pottering. He is very experienced and he has all the gear for summoning help if he feels he needs it - just like me and thousands of others. There is no rational evidence based need for a liferaft.

 

[Refueler]

The waters around the British Isles are cold, and survival time immersed in them is short.

I sailed for decades around Florida and the Caribbean without a life raft, and didn't think about it.

But in these waters, I wouldn't leave home without a life raft (and anyway it's a legal requirement for UK-flagged boats over 45'). Flooding is not the only situation which might require you to abandon ship -- there's also the horror of fire.

Maybe day sailing only, in the Solent only, in summer only, where you're never out of sight of another vessel. But in my book, not anywhere else.

I'm of two minds .....

I can think of many things I want to spend 1000+ quid on .... instead of an item that may only ever sit there - never used in 'anger'.
and
If the proverbial hits the fan - its there and mighty glad it is.

Bad trip from Gotland with terrible weather (its a 17hr trip - so has a night element) ... has had me seriously concerned ..... wondering if that freak wave is waiting to pounce ...

It makes one think .. raft or no raft ....

 

[rogerthebodger]

I am also approaching 80 and I have a canaster life raft mounted on my Pushpit such I don't have to lift it I just release 2 retaining clips and it falls in the water and expands due to the painter attached to the boat

 

[Tranona]

I'm of two minds .....

I can think of many things I want to spend 1000+ quid on .... instead of an item that may only ever sit there - never used in 'anger'.
and
If the proverbial hits the fan - its there and mighty glad it is.

Bad trip from Gotland with terrible weather (its a 17hr trip - so has a night element) ... has had me seriously concerned ..... wondering if that freak wave is waiting to pounce ...

It makes one think .. raft or no raft ....

Yachts like yours are very difficult to sink. In heavy weather your (and my) threshold will be reached long before the boat is at risk. If you read many of the ocean passage guys who hit prolonged bad weather the advice is often to batten down and leave the boat to make its own way. The problem with that advice for coastal and near offshore sailing is the amount of hard land close by. The heavy weather founderings in UK waters in the data set I looked at were mostly driven ashore by weather rather than the boat being overwhelmed.

Saving Lives at Sea is back again on the TV and no doubt will get a few more examples of yachts rescued in coastal waters because of bad weather where the crew is overwhelmed or in danger of being blown ashore.

 

[Tranona]

I am also approaching 80 and I have a canaster life raft mounted on my Pushpit such I don't have to lift it I just release 2 retaining clips and it falls in the water and expands due to the painter attached to the boat

That is how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately plenty of evidence, particularly from the fishing fleet where that system is common that it is often not very effective.

 

[Refueler]

I am also approaching 80 and I have a canaster life raft mounted on my Pushpit such I don't have to lift it I just release 2 retaining clips and it falls in the water and expands due to the painter attached to the boat

There's a thing ...

If I was to choose a 'raft' - I think I would choose a Valise version ... but then it would not be suitable for permanent mount on deck / pushpit etc. That is the realm of the hard Canister version.

I have noted on various boats with 'rafts' that they have IMHO too large a raft ... having had experience of a Life Raft in proper sea conditions - not in a swimming pool - I can say without hesitation - that a large raft with only a person or 2 in - can be extremely unstable - even dangerous.
I have a 25ft boat registered with Latvians as up to 5 persons ... I would only put a 2 man 'raft'. I have a 38ft boat which if I put on Latvian Registry would be 6 persons ... I would only put a 4 man 'raft'.

 

[Refueler]

That is how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately plenty of evidence, particularly from the fishing fleet where that system is common that it is often not very effective.

Hu Hum ..... no ... actually .. its supposed to be released or thrown into water and YOU pull the painter to inflate.

If you were to wait for the boat to pull the painter - then you'll be waiting or going down with the boat ... painters are actually quite long !!

 

[rogerthebodger]

That is how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately plenty of evidence, particularly from the fishing fleet where that system is common that it is often not very effective.

That may be so but it proper design that is the important factor

Having delt with some fishing boats the is little interest in the crew safety by the fishing boat owners where I ail

 

[rogerthebodger]

Hu Hum ..... no ... actually .. its supposed to be released or thrown into water and YOU pull the painter to inflate.

If you were to wait for the boat to pull the painter - then you'll be waiting or going down with the boat ... painters are actually quite long !!

I would not wait for the boat to pull the painter it's just attach to the boat so it cannot be lost overboard

In my case as soon s the LR hits the water I would then pull the painter then step into the LR with my crew

 

[Tranona]

Little to do with "design"

If you ever get in a position where your boat is sinking and your only hope is the liferaft you may well find that it does not happen in the way you imagine it. While your arrangement is better than the one I had on my old Bavaria it is still not foolproof.

Still you are never going to need it so it is all academic anyway.

 

[Tranona]

Hu Hum ..... no ... actually .. its supposed to be released or thrown into water and YOU pull the painter to inflate.

If you were to wait for the boat to pull the painter - then you'll be waiting or going down with the boat ... painters are actually quite long !!

No. The fishing boats regs require a hydrostatic release. That is because many founderings involve a capsize while crew are working so both manual release and hydrostatic are required.

Again, when you read the full accounts of real liferaft deployments there is little pattern of what "works" because they are so diverse. There are some common themes, such as the difficulty of throwing a raft into the water, getting it inflated and upright, then actually boarding it. There have been many improvements in raft design that deals with some of the issues, but the reality remains that if you need to deploy it you are likely to be in a howling gale with water and bits of gear flying around, crew panicking, waves breaking over a sinking boat. You then have to think how you are going to get 35kgs of canister into the water close to you and pull the cord to inflate. Then get you and your crew into an unstable little tent that is being blown around and probably filling with water.

Just doing that in the pool when I did the training was enough to convince me to avoid getting into that situation and not to rely on the false security of a liferaft.