Which Liferaft

Refueler said:
"Tranona" your comment seems to not have understood his point about the area he sails ....

"I don't buy this idea that you are more likely to need it where you say. There is no evidence in the reported events that involve yachts and liferafts in UK waters that it is any more likely to happen there. The events are random and widely distributed around the coast."

His point is not that he is more likely yo have an event ... its the remoteness of his area and IF an event occurred - the time for RNLI / CG to attend would be much longer than most other areas ...

"Like Dunedin, we sail in some of the more remote parts of the West Coast, where any assistance can be a long way away. Sailing in these parts, one has to be independent, in all sorts of ways"
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No I have not missed the point. I have said there is no evidence that any more events with yachts that result in deaths because of the relative thinness of cover. Not sure I agree with the idea of greater "independence" either as you have no greater control over what happens to you if you do abandon ship and an open dinghy is less suitable as a survival vehicle.

As i said if people who boat there really think they are at greater risk of both foundering nd receiving prompt assistance then by all means have a proper raft, just as if you going well offshore and outside the limits of easy communication and rapid on demand rescue services.

The reality is that the incidence of yacht founderings in UK coastal waters has plummeted in the last 20 years for reasons I explained earlier
 
It has been said many times the best place if a boat disables (mast down is to stay with the boat unless it is sinking.

If on fire get into life raft but stay close to the boat as the boat is a better target than a smallish life raft

I not only have a free launching life raft but also have some serval suits as used on North Sea helicopter transfer over water
 
Tranona said:
No I have not missed the point. I have said there is no evidence that any more events with yachts that result in deaths because of the relative thinness of cover. Not sure I agree with the idea of greater "independence" either as you have no greater control over what happens to you if you do abandon ship and an open dinghy is less suitable as a survival vehicle.

As i said if people who boat there really think they are at greater risk of both foundering nd receiving prompt assistance then by all means have a proper raft, just as if you going well offshore and outside the limits of easy communication and rapid on demand rescue services.

The reality is that the incidence of yacht founderings in UK coastal waters has plummeted in the last 20 years for reasons I explained earlier
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Where has anyone suggested that there is a greater risk of foundering in the more remote areas?
Chapter and verse please.
 
An entertaining discussion but really, the cost of a 4 man valise from one of the big manufacturers is about 750. Even with three services over its 12 year life (if one is very conscientious, most might be happy with two) the total cost might be 1600. £133pa for an insurance policy. Even though I keep my boating as cheap as possible that is still only about 4% off the annual cost.

Like all insurance policies you'll probably never need it. I've never made a single marine insurance claim in 25 years. Neither a house insurance claim over the same period. Nor have I needed my car seat belt in 33 years. Car insurance...only ever made two windscreen claims in 29 years.

As it happens, I have to have one anyway for some of the racing that I do but for the money it's hardly with thinking about. It also eases the mind of the family, both when they are on the boat with me or I'm off with friends. Just last year I had a badly configured fuel return hose split that was essentially connected to the fuel lift pump and squirting diesel all over the engine. Eventually it set off the smoke alarm in the engine compartment (another insurance policy I didn't expect to need). Would it have caught fire eventually? I don't know, probably not but it was smoking like a good'un when we opened it up.
 
ridgy said:
An entertaining discussion but really, the cost of a 4 man valise from one of the big manufacturers is about 750. Even with three services over its 12 year life (if one is very conscientious, most might be happy with two) the total cost might be 1600. £133pa for an insurance policy. Even though I keep my boating as cheap as possible that is still only about 4% off the annual cost.

Like all insurance policies you'll probably never need it. I've never made a single marine insurance claim in 25 years. Neither a house insurance claim over the same period. Nor have I needed my car seat belt in 33 years. Car insurance...only ever made two windscreen claims in 29 years.

As it happens, I have to have one anyway for some of the racing that I do but for the money it's hardly with thinking about. It also eases the mind of the family, both when they are on the boat with me or I'm off with friends. Just last year I had a badly configured fuel return hose split that was essentially connected to the fuel lift pump and squirting diesel all over the engine. Eventually it set off the smoke alarm in the engine compartment (another insurance policy I didn't expect to need). Would it have caught fire eventually? I don't know, probably not but it was smoking like a good'un when we opened it up.
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4 man cheapest I can find is over 1000 quid ...

Please link to one at 750 .. I may be interest6ed !!

Its interesting actually that racing classes - some mandate a L/R in serviced condition ... when being in a race is probably the most likely sailing actuvity that you would be rescued in reasonably quickly - even if offshore ..
 
NormanS said:
Where has anyone suggested that there is a greater risk of foundering in the more remote areas?
Chapter and verse please.
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See post 41. Your argument is that because of the thin cover you need to be more "independent" because of the remoteness. What I am saying is that based on reported incidents there is no more likelihood of a yacht foundering in that area than any other part of the UK coastal waters, nor any evidence that people have died from a yacht foundering because the rescue services could not reach them in time.
 
Refueler said:
4 man cheapest I can find is over 1000 quid ...

Please link to one at 750 .. I may be interest6ed !!

Its interesting actually that racing classes - some mandate a L/R in serviced condition ... when being in a race is probably the most likely sailing actuvity that you would be rescued in reasonably quickly - even if offshore ..
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Ocean Safety Ocean Standard Liferafts
 
Fires can happen anywhere. Collisions ....anywhere. grounding, obviously, near land. It can take a long long time to be rescued even if you can raise the alarm in many...most...parts of the world. With a liferaft, you got a chance. Without one, we'll it's obvious innit?

On my own yacht we had a 4 man liferaft with an entry ramp and an inflatable door system that could be secured shut after you were in the raft. Once in, drogue out. They all have them. Unlike dinghies. Which aren't much use, really. In my opinion. Having been in tenders in pants weather.

A good friend of mine had a cooking gas explosion on his yacht. He managed to get into the liferaft from the burning yacht but sadly didn't survive his injuries. Off the west coast of one of the Windies Islands. Help came far too late.

I suppose it depends where you sail. These days I'm more likely to sail within an hour of our local marina and I know help is at hand. But when I've sailed around the other Islands, we take a liferaft. Seems daft not to. For me.

Perhaps those that have had any kind of sea survival training are more likely to take this matter more seriously.
 
capnsensible said:
Fires can happen anywhere. Collisions ....anywhere. grounding, obviously, near land. It can take a long long time to be rescued even if you can raise the alarm in many...most...parts of the world. With a liferaft, you got a chance. Without one, we'll it's obvious innit?

On my own yacht we had a 4 man liferaft with an entry ramp and an inflatable door system that could be secured shut after you were in the raft. Once in, drogue out. They all have them. Unlike dinghies. Which aren't much use, really. In my opinion. Having been in tenders in pants weather.

A good friend of mine had a cooking gas explosion on his yacht. He managed to get into the liferaft from the burning yacht but sadly didn't survive his injuries. Off the west coast of one of the Windies Islands. Help came far too late.

I suppose it depends where you sail. These days I'm more likely to sail within an hour of our local marina and I know help is at hand. But when I've sailed around the other Islands, we take a liferaft. Seems daft not to. For me.
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I don't think there is any really GOOD reason to not have a L/R. But plenty of reasons TO HAVE one.

It comes down to personal choice ....

I have no L/R on any of my boats ... I don't wear a L/J when sailing ... I don't use a safety line ... all my own choice - BUT I am aware that my choices are not the sensible ones.
 
Tranona said:
See post 41. Your argument is that because of the thin cover you need to be more "independent" because of the remoteness. What I am saying is that based on reported incidents there is no more likelihood of a yacht foundering in that area than any other part of the UK coastal waters, nor any evidence that people have died from a yacht foundering because the rescue services could not reach them in time.
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I think you are just arguing with yourself. You're saying that there is no more risk of a yacht foundering in "that" area. Nobody is arguing with you, so why keep repeating it.
I do say that if sailing in remote areas, one has to be more independent than someone pootling about in Lake Solent. I hate to think of the weight of tools, fasteners and spares that we carry. There is no alternative.
 
I disagree with Tranona about not having a liferaft . But I have always had one in my current yacht, I am on my second as I disposed of the first whenit reached the end of its 3 year service cycles.. My current 4 man Seago did not cost anything like £1000. In the grand scheme of things it is not a big deal anyway
But it is rated for coastal which I sail in.
I store it on the cockpit floor under the mainsheet traveller. I have to step over that so it is no big deal steping over the LR at the same time. It also acts as somewhere to keep note book & chartsunder the straps. Last week I moved it from under the chart table to its place & It was a hell of a struggle in my current condition. I reckon a fit person would not do it in a rough sea, So it needs storing on deck & a valise is a no no. I would not get it out of a locker with the lid smashing down on me every minute. I can slip it over the stern.
Tranona mentions fires- Well I had one on board back in the 70s with petrol & a stuart Turner P4MC. The crew had the Avon over the side as I finally put it out with the last blast of the second Chub powder extinguisher. Brilliant extinguishers but what a mess
.
On top of that I have had 4 near misses. One less than a boats length from an Evergreen container ship that had no clue I was there
One from a coaster so close that wash from his semi submerged prop sprayed over us & the skipper shouted at us.
One where a ship in the Dover strait changed course after we crossed his path & he clearly was not watching. My crew had the straps on the LR undone & the LR loose.
A Ferry in the Irish sea was also ready to run me down untill I called several times . he did not see my AIS
So in my experience a collision is possible. Whether a LR would be a means of survival is uncertain. But it is there if I let it float free
.
If I lost a man in the drink I would also consider putting the LR in the water if I could drag it near enough for him to get into
So I say that a life raft is a sensible addition. Especially in busy shipping areas or places like the Irish sea and west coast of scotland
 
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NormanS said:
I think you are just arguing with yourself. You're saying that there is no more risk of a yacht foundering in "that" area. Nobody is arguing with you, so why keep repeating it.
I do say that if sailing in remote areas, one has to be more independent than someone pootling about in Lake Solent. I hate to think of the weight of tools, fasteners and spares that we carry. There is no alternative.
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Exactly ... in the Solent - you have far more chance of support and assistance within a short time frame.

But out in the islands away from such ... then the level of self sufficiency increases many fold ...
 
"Last week I moved it from under the chart table to its place & It was a hell of a struggle in my current condition. I reckon a fit person would not do it in a rough sea, So it needs storing on deck & a valise is a no no."

The Seago that T linked to is 30kg in its valise ...

30kg to a fit person is not over taxing - but on a yacht in an emergency ? Just hope that adrenaline rush helps !!

The idea of trying to hump 30kg over the rail .. let alone getting it from stowed location ... gives me cause to question if I can do it ..

This then brings me to a comment of before ... Container in a rail mount ...

Many boats - you see container L/R mounted ahead or just aft the mast on c/l .... I cannot support that IMHO ... imagine it ... you'd need to release and then make sure it goes overside on a heaving deck ? I'm talking about a sailboat - with all its sheets etc ....

Sobering thoughts ...
 
Refueler said:
"Last week I moved it from under the chart table to its place & It was a hell of a struggle in my current condition. I reckon a fit person would not do it in a rough sea, So it needs storing on deck & a valise is a no no."

The Seago that T linked to is 30kg in its valise ...

30kg to a fit person is not over taxing - but on a yacht in an emergency ? Just hope that adrenaline rush helps !!

The idea of trying to hump 30kg over the rail .. let alone getting it from stowed location ... gives me cause to question if I can do it ..

This then brings me to a comment of before ... Container in a rail mount ...

Many boats - you see container L/R mounted ahead or just aft the mast on c/l .... I cannot support that IMHO ... imagine it ... you'd need to release and then make sure it goes overside on a heaving deck ? I'm talking about a sailboat - with all its sheets etc ....

Sobering thoughts ...
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Indeed.

I think the cradle mount OUTSIDE the pushpit is the right solution, eliminating all the painful issues you correctly point out. Just pull the pin and the raft is deployed. And boat motion will be least back there.

In my case, I have a life raft locker let into the aftermost part of the doghouse. To deploy, I would have to drag across the afterdeck, tie on the lanyard, push overboard. This is much less good than the pushpit cradle, but much better than under the nav table or, God forbid, buried in the lazarette somewhere under a spare mainsail and 9 miles of old cordage.
 
NormanS said:
I think you are just arguing with yourself. You're saying that there is no more risk of a yacht foundering in "that" area. Nobody is arguing with you, so why keep repeating it.
I do say that if sailing in remote areas, one has to be more independent than someone pootling about in Lake Solent. I hate to think of the weight of tools, fasteners and spares that we carry. There is no alternative.
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What I am saying is that where you sail is really little different from most of the UK coastline. You constantly refer to "Lake Solent" as it if is somehow a peaceful little pond with no dangers. True the central south coast does have much greater coverage from rescue services and many safe havens, but as you move away either east or west that changes rapidly. The Western Approaches are just as remote and hostile as is the Bristol Channel and the east coast from Suffolk northwards. The level of rescue services reflects the level of demand

Not sure whether you have actually sailed in the English Channel but it is a pretty challenging area with not only the natural hazards but the busiest waterway in the world for commercial shipping going east and west plus a constant stream of ferries and fast Cats going north south. And don't forget the large fishing fleet particularly in the south west. Hardly surprising that the majority of the yacht founderings in the data I referred to earlier that resulted in raft deployments or loss of life occurred in these water or the southern Celtic Sea.

So I don't see why your requirements should be any different for sailing where you are currently compared with if you moved down south. As you see from what others say your choice of carrying an inflated dinghy is still common even though there is little evidence that it is effective on its own in an emergency situation where the parent boat is lost.
 
Tranona said:
See post 41. Your argument is that because of the thin cover you need to be more "independent" because of the remoteness. What I am saying is that based on reported incidents there is no more likelihood of a yacht foundering in that area than any other part of the UK coastal waters, nor any evidence that people have died from a yacht foundering because the rescue services could not reach them in time.
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Whilst I do agree with much of your sentiment the quantification of the risk might be misleading simply because of the low "population". You need lots of things to go "wrong" for a liferaft to be the genuine difference between life and death: an incident causing abandon ship; no other suitable alternative (e.g. dinghy); no other vessel nearby; no rescue services close enough. If you look at absolute numbers the lower "population density" in remote Scotland means the chances of disaster striking in a particular AREA is lower. However for an individual skipper that is irrelevant, he is interested in the chances per vessel not per area. Once the incident happens the relative population density does matter with an inverse correlation - both to a nearby vessel being able to help and to the response times of the rescue services.

I have one because it came with the boat. I don't (at the moment) sail in the most remote parts of Scotland so if I didn't have one I probably wouldn't buy one. However when this one reaches end of life it will be psychologically harder not to replace it than to not buy one in the first place. The difficulty is not just convincing me - but my "crew" who have become accustomed to its "reassuring" presense.

Tranona said:
The level of rescue services reflects the level of demand
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But not necessarily the level of genuine life and death demand where a liferaft might help! The providers of rescue services do care about the frequency per area - as clearly a standby resource which only gets required very infrequently is a huge cost.
 
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