What's the fascination with long keels?

[pmagowan]

But I can't issue the death certificate...

I'm your huckleberry!

I am biased as I have grown up on and now own a long keeler. I know, first hand, the things that are sacrificed in this design. For a start, space. I am not so concerned with the reputation about useless maneuverability as I don't see it that way. I have never had a problem getting my boat to do exactly what I want it to do and at times I am thankful that she is not as skittish as others in a confined space. She moves slow and steady and you need to understand about how and where you have control. I think too many people think about boats like driving a car and then panic when it doesn't respond to the tiller. With a combination of prop walk, inertia and using blasts of forward and reverse I can get my boat to spin on a dime (as the yanks say), while the long keel prevents her being blown across the marina.

In sailing performance I have no doubt that we will not win against a modern design. We are heavy and there are only a few conditions where our advantages would outweight the disadvantanges. But then I don't race competitively, only for fun and informally often against boats that don't even know they are racing. My boat is designed for cruising and she sails comfortably, safely and at the same time looks the way I want her to look. She lacks cabin space and I wouldn't mind another 10 feet but such is life. Every boat has its pros and cons, its advocates and its critics. In the end what matters is that we are safe and sailing.

 

[JumbleDuck]

In the end what matters is that we are safe and sailing.

Preach it, brother.

 

[westernman]

With a combination of prop walk, inertia and using blasts of forward and reverse I can get my boat to spin on a dime (as the yanks say)

Lucky you.

I can't do that in a F7.

When I arrive back in my marina it always seems to be blowing a F7. Not being able to turn around reduces the options for parking.

 

[Polux]

Lucky you.

I can't do that in a F7.

When I arrive back in my marina it always seems to be blowing a F7. Not being able to turn around reduces the options for parking.

Your boat is beautiful :encouragement:

Regarding sailing, it is not all about performance and sea motion it's also about flavor and style. Having had once a 80 year old gaff cutter I can imagine the fun of sailing your boat

 

[pmagowan]

Lucky you.

I can't do that in a F7.

When I arrive back in my marina it always seems to be blowing a F7. Not being able to turn around reduces the options for parking.

I have managed fine in a force 7 before when I had missed all the slots at Oban and ventured round to Dunstaffanage (sp). I was even considering trying to reverse in to prevent the wind coming in the gangway but since it would have been my first time parking in reverse I thought I would give it a miss. Essentially it is about knowing your limits and the way your boat responds. Reverse is reasonably uselss for stearage in a long keeler but if you can take into account windage then it is about getting forward momentum and then controlling the stern. I always think about it as a controlled ramming. Go for the pontoon at about 45 degrees taking windage into account (speed is normally very slow) and then control the stern with the engine. I just don't worry about the risk of a dunt and it never seems to happen. Take off way at the last second and the stern can be brought in with rudder hard over and prop walk to assist.

I think some of the lighter (more comforatable accomodation) boats with fin keels suffer from their maneuverability in port. They get blown about and they dont hold their momentum as well and then they turn too quick and fall short to be blown off. But then they can reverse in and many of them even have propellors in other parts to help them spin about. My main benefit is a stern hung rudder that is quite large and has the prop wash directed at it.

 

[westernman]

I have always parked stern to in my home marina. Also in the marinas I visit as there is no side pontoon to disembark. Disembarking by crawling up the bow sprit is unseemly and not very practical when carrying stuff

Otherwise in my home marina if parked bow to I have a post level with the companion way which is very difficult to fender adequately. Parked stern to, this post overlaps with the bow sprit and never comes near to touching anything.

Parking stern to in a long keeler with LOA of 67ft is an art - and I take great satisfaction in doing that manoeuver in a strong cross wind and getting into the berth with out touching anything and without using the fenders.

But I can't spin with back and fill in a F7. I can't get the bow to go through the wind unless I have a couple of knots of way on.

Prop wash over the rudder and using the wind are the main control mechanisms.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I'm your huckleberry!

I am biased as I have grown up on and now own a long keeler. I know, first hand, the things that are sacrificed in this design. For a start, space. I am not so concerned with the reputation about useless maneuverability as I don't see it that way. I have never had a problem getting my boat to do exactly what I want it to do and at times I am thankful that she is not as skittish as others in a confined space. She moves slow and steady and you need to understand about how and where you have control. I think too many people think about boats like driving a car and then panic when it doesn't respond to the tiller. With a combination of prop walk, inertia and using blasts of forward and reverse I can get my boat to spin on a dime (as the yanks say), while the long keel prevents her being blown across the marina.

In sailing performance I have no doubt that we will not win against a modern design. We are heavy and there are only a few conditions where our advantages would outweight the disadvantanges. But then I don't race competitively, only for fun and informally often against boats that don't even know they are racing. My boat is designed for cruising and she sails comfortably, safely and at the same time looks the way I want her to look. She lacks cabin space and I wouldn't mind another 10 feet but such is life. Every boat has its pros and cons, its advocates and its critics. In the end what matters is that we are safe and sailing.

I think that's honest and accurate. You are honest about the failings of the design and acknowledge the faults. It doesn't alter anything that I've argued, which is that a well designed fin keel boat has all of those characteristics, yet often has more accomodation, sails faster and points higher and is even easier to 'turn on a dime'. My original idea in starting this discussion was to point out to people who are new to sailing, or who are looking for a boat to go blue water cruising with, that they needn't accept the old trotted out arguments that long distant cruising across oceans equals long keel. Its an outdated and unnecessary albatross that you don't have to hang round your neck. That's not to say that long keeled boats don't or can't sail well, but you are starting off from an amount of wetted area and ungainly handling that isn't necessary.

>I meant to imply inappropriate sail plans with too much sail up for the conditions, and yes I have managed to broach in a long keeled boat. Just fly a spinnaker in too much wind and lose the steering.

The normal mistake with a broach is to fly a spinnaker and full main in too much wind, there are films of that with racing boats. We went downwind with a twin headsail twistle rig, no main and a reefed mizzen sail. Most boats take the spinnaker down at night but with a twistle rig you have an infinite range of sizes when reefing. I really don't understand why somebody would abuse a boat with the wrong sail plan unless they are inexperienced or just plain stupid, if the wind starts picking up reef.

I agree totally, but there are two things that need to be pointed out.

Firstly I was responding to someone (was it you?) who said that they had never seen a long keeled boat broach. The answer is that they can and they do, albeit often in a rather more sedate manner than some modern lightweight fin keeled boats, but that's not the point. The implication that was being made in defence of long keels was that a long keel guaranteed the sailor against some of the bad habits of some fin keeled boats. Its a lie and IF you abuse any boat then it will misbehave. Its not a recommendation from me that one should sail in this manner, I'm just pointing out the facts.

Secondly whilst also agree 100% with your sentiments about twistle rigs and flying spinnakers on ocean passages, everything you say also applies to a conservatively designed fin keeled boat on passage. There's nothing specifically relevant to the sailing of a long keeled boat. In other words, there is nothing in what you say that argues the case for long keels 'per se' and I believe that my premise still holds true.

People reading this thread ought to remember that everyone likes to justify their own choice of boat. Whether its the boat of their dreams or just the boat that they can afford, people like to feel good about what they have. My argument is that when people set out to buy a boat to cross oceans, they need to stand back and try and have a slightly more objective view. Much of the hype about long keels comes from the early days of ocean cruising when people were worried that the technology of attaching fin keels was unreliable, underwater hull design was still being developed and the long keel was a proven system. The reality is that it is prohibitively expensive and very difficult of impossible to build a fin keeled boat in traditional materials. Frames, and stringers and wooden planking (carvel or clinker) lend themselves to long keels. Its the way wood is made.

Modern materials freed the designers and progress has been made. If you dismiss the poor fin keel designs you can have a boat that sails faster and has a kindly sea-motion and is easier to handle under sail and power. If you still choose to buy a long keeled boat at least be honest about its failings and don't pretend that its better than all modern designs. My humble suggestion is that it usually isn't.

Finally we all have to acknowledge that we buy boats with our heart. If you want to travel you don't usually choose a slow wet method that costs relatively large bucks per mile in something that throws you around and makes you sick. Yet the reason we are all on this forum is that there's a particular pleasure about taking charge of your vessel (as skipper or crew) and working her on passage round the bay or across an ocean. Why else do people buy boats for the 'row away factor'. I love to see our boat on her mooring and my heart always lifts as she comes into sight as I dinghy down the river to her. Its addictive and there's no cure that I've heard of...

 

[pmagowan]

I have always parked stern to in my home marina. Also in the marinas I visit as there is no side pontoon to disembark. Disembarking by crawling up the bow sprit is unseemly and not very practical when carrying stuff

Otherwise in my home marina if parked bow to I have a post level with the companion way which is very difficult to fender adequately. Parked stern to, this post overlaps with the bow sprit and never comes near to touching anything.

Parking stern to in a long keeler with LOA of 67ft is an art - and I take great satisfaction in doing that manoeuver in a strong cross wind and getting into the berth with out touching anything and without using the fenders.

But I can't spin with back and fill in a F7. I can't get the bow to go through the wind unless I have a couple of knots of way on.

Prop wash over the rudder and using the wind are the main control mechanisms.

With a boat of that size you have moved into a different set of problems and solutions as your windage would be significant compared to mine. If it is blowing too hard then sometimes I will start to turn the opposite way (irrespective of intentions) even with prop walk but then the turn is simply slower as the prop is working against it but I can still pull it off using the wash from the prop over the rudder. On that occasion above that I mentioned I had to do this 3 or 4 times as we went up and down restricted channels to try and find a pontoon. The tricky bit is to start your turn with enough momentum towards the wind so that as you fall off you dont end up blowing sideways out of control. If this happens it can be hard to recover from and will need some quite noisy engine work to force the stern to tuck in and push the bow through the wind prior to blowing onto something. Worst case scenario is it all looks a mess and you have to fend off but worse things happen at sea!

 

[pmagowan]

I think that's honest and accurate. You are honest about the failings of the design and acknowledge the faults. It doesn't alter anything that I've argued, which is that a well designed fin keel boat has all of those characteristics, yet often has more accomodation, sails faster and points higher and is even easier to 'turn on a dime'. My original idea in starting this discussion was to point out to people who are new to sailing, or who are looking for a boat to go blue water cruising with, that they needn't accept the old trotted out arguments that long distant cruising across oceans equals long keel. Its an outdated and unnecessary albatross that you don't have to hang round your neck. That's not to say that long keeled boats don't or can't sail well, but you are starting off from an amount of wetted area and ungainly handling that isn't necessary.


.

What about the ability of a long keeler to take the ground? That is another plus point although of little interest to 99% of a long passage. I went into Portpatrick at the wrong state of tide to try and make the pub for super and ran aground on about 5 occasions. I phoned the pub to book a pint and a meal and then hung off the boom until we floated off each time. I got some advice from some of the inhabitants of the pub but there was just not enough water and so it happened a few times as I tried to get in. I was not concerned and indeed I expected it but the extra 2 inches of water seemed to take too long when I was thinking about a pint. Eventually I simply polished the keel under steam until we were in. I would not fancy doing that in a fin keel but then I don't know how they would take it as I don't own one.

I get your last paragraph perfectly. It is a heart not a head thing. If my head ruled I would buy a nice, non-leaky, plastic boat with lots of space. I like wood, I like the look of a long keel and I like a tiller in my hand!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think it a depends is the answer. We have a longish fin and we used to have some long scrapes down each side of it where we had ploughed through the mud of the Aurienne River for a mile or two. I've dried out lots of fin keeled boats without any problem but I know some narrow fin yachts can topple over. I can't imagine any of the conservative fin keelers that have the characteristics I've been extolling falling into this latter category.

 

[pmagowan]

Well, after harping on about how easy it is to control a long keller I had my first 'minor' incident at the marina this weekend. I reversed out and was doing a 25 point turn when suddenly, instead of reversing she started going forwards at speed. I knew instantly what had happened but there was not time to do a nything about it other than to aim for the pontoon rather than any of the nice shiney yachts. It is amazing how much speed you can get up in a short distance when stuck in forward gear. Well, we made a lovely 'crump' noise and rode up the pontoon. Luckily we have a nice sweeping bow profile and so we didn't go crunch. Scraped a bit of paint off and a minor dent in the wood but nothing some paint and filler wont fix.

Incidently, it all happened due to a loose clip to attach the transmission cable to the gearbox. It popped off while in forward. Only real risk was that my sister tried to fend off with her legs which could have been nasty. It is quite hard to decide what to do with only 5 seconds to iminent crash and in future we will be prepared to take the hit without putting anyone at risk. No real harm done and we got out with it slipping off and on just by me burrying my head in the engine locker and flicking the gear lever by hand. Once out in the open water I was able to attach it better but it will need a new part to be confident.

I would have killed for the ability to swing right round quickly as we would have been able to exit the marina at speed rather than ram it. My turning circle was too large and it would have risked other boats to try anything else. To be honest this may still have beent he case even in a fancy fiberglass boat. The one thing that all the fiberglass boats nearby have that would have been problematic is very square bows. I think it would have holed one of them. No worries, it's only a boat and these things add to the fun!

 

[Tradewind 35]

Came across this bizarre thread 'What-s-the-fascination-with-long-keels'. I thought the debate about long-keel vs fin, for bluewater sailing, had been definitively answered by by C A Marchaj in 'Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor' (Adlard Coles) in 1986! Worth a read before commenting on relative seaworthiness based on narrow personal experience.

 

[KellysEye]

We had a long keel with cutaway forefoot heavy displacemnt steel ketch, long keelers don't broach, don't surf and and don't heel as much, which means you can sleep well at night. If you are going long distance sailing and don't want that then buy a fin keeled boat. We sailed over 10,000nms - no armchair in sight. Also, I and the new owner decided to see if we could sail a 3.5 day passage withoutte windvane with balanced the sails so there was no lee or weather helm order to sail straight, it worked. Try that with a fin keel.

 

[Tranona]

Came across this bizarre thread 'What-s-the-fascination-with-long-keels'. I thought the debate about long-keel vs fin, for bluewater sailing, had been definitively answered by by C A Marchaj in 'Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor' (Adlard Coles) in 1986! Worth a read before commenting on relative seaworthiness based on narrow personal experience.

That may be the case (from 1986), but the thousands of fin keel boats that have successfully sailed "bluewater" since then would suggest that they are in general perfectly seaworthy. Long keel boats are a minority interest now, and of course minority users will defend their decision.

 

[rotrax]

Well, after harping on about how easy it is to control a long keller I had my first 'minor' incident at the marina this weekend. I reversed out and was doing a 25 point turn when suddenly, instead of reversing she started going forwards at speed. I knew instantly what had happened but there was not time to do a nything about it other than to aim for the pontoon rather than any of the nice shiney yachts. It is amazing how much speed you can get up in a short distance when stuck in forward gear. Well, we made a lovely 'crump' noise and rode up the pontoon. Luckily we have a nice sweeping bow profile and so we didn't go crunch. Scraped a bit of paint off and a minor dent in the wood but nothing some paint and filler wont fix.

Incidently, it all happened due to a loose clip to attach the transmission cable to the gearbox. It popped off while in forward. Only real risk was that my sister tried to fend off with her legs which could have been nasty. It is quite hard to decide what to do with only 5 seconds to iminent crash and in future we will be prepared to take the hit without putting anyone at risk. No real harm done and we got out with it slipping off and on just by me burrying my head in the engine locker and flicking the gear lever by hand. Once out in the open water I was able to attach it better but it will need a new part to be confident.

I would have killed for the ability to swing right round quickly as we would have been able to exit the marina at speed rather than ram it. My turning circle was too large and it would have risked other boats to try anything else. To be honest this may still have beent he case even in a fancy fiberglass boat. The one thing that all the fiberglass boats nearby have that would have been problematic is very square bows. I think it would have holed one of them. No worries, it's only a boat and these things add to the fun!

Exactly the same thing has happened to us-TWICE!

First time in a British Hunter 27 OOD when the cross pin in the lever sheared off, the second with our much loved Island Packet 350 Jess. Jess had the transmission cable slip out of the clip shortly after we got her. She was left in astern-First Mate had just taken way off before coming alongside.

Our large Caribe dinghy was on the davits, but for this we would have hit a Moody with the stern quite hard. As it happened, the rebound of the dinghy shot the boat down a channel in the Marina like a flipper on a pinball machine.....................

First Mate-I was stranded on an ajacent hammerhead-stopped the donk and coasted gently alongside the sterns of three moored boats where she made fast untill I got to her.

A very exiting 30 seconds!

For all the close to manouveing hassles our current boat with a shallow long keel is worth it for its comfort and quietness in bad conditions. The leeway and going astern can be coped with.

The first ten years are the worst.................................

 

[rotrax]

That may be the case (from 1986), but the thousands of fin keel boats that have successfully sailed "bluewater" since then would suggest that they are in general perfectly seaworthy. Long keel boats are a minority interest now, and of course minority users will defend their decision.

Reminds me of an alleged conversation between a worried US Bentley dealer at an LA motor show.

The dealer, after making heavy investment in premises, staff and stock was worried about Lexus stealing business.

"Dont worry old chap-they will never catch on. You could drive right through a Lexus in a Bently and not even spill your drink!" replied the British agent, taking another puff on his Havana.....................

Its not WHAT they can do-we all know that-its the way they do it.

Plus the built in safety factor that an encapsulated keel is unlikely to become detatched.

Which CAN happen.....................................

 

[{151760}]

Reminds me of an alleged conversation between a worried US Bentley dealer at an LA motor show.

The dealer, after making heavy investment in premises, staff and stock was worried about Lexus stealing business.

"Dont worry old chap-they will never catch on. You could drive right through a Lexus in a Bently and not even spill your drink!" replied the British agent, taking another puff on his Havana.....................

Its not WHAT they can do-we all know that-its the way they do it.

Plus the built in safety factor that an encapsulated keel is unlikely to become detatched.

Which CAN happen.....................................

Bentley sales in US 2013, just over 10000. Lexus US sales 2013, over 34000.
How many long keeleres do Beneteau, Bavaria or Jeanneau make? How many of their boats are crossing oceans as we write?
(Or choose manufacturers of choice in above statement).
An encapsulated keel is fine on a well-designed boat, though it won't make any difference if you hit a submerged container, so is a bolted-on keel, allowing for the tiny risk of detachment.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Came across this bizarre thread 'What-s-the-fascination-with-long-keels'. I thought the debate about long-keel vs fin, for bluewater sailing, had been definitively answered by by C A Marchaj in 'Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor' (Adlard Coles) in 1986! Worth a read before commenting on relative seaworthiness based on narrow personal experience.

Thanks for resurrecting the thread that had died (along with most lovers of long keeled boats).

Read back through and you will see that the characteristics of traditional long keeled boats can be found in many fin keeled boats.

The trouble is that some modern racy fin keeled boats (with the advantages and disadvantages that design brings to the racing and fast cruising scene) tend to make people lump ALL fin keeled boats together. People think that all fin keeled boats don't track, don't lie peacefully hove to, heel too much, are tender and their motion is wearing in a seaway, etc etc.

Choose the right fin keeled boat and none of this is true. You retain all the nice seaworthiness of "some" long keeled boats, and you lose the pain the backside boat handling and tedious slowness that some long keeled boats exhibit.

I'm afraid that the 1986 book was behind the times then and is even more behind the times now. hull and keel designs change and sometimes its for the better.

I'm interested in why you think the thread was/is bizarre? It seemed to me to be a perfectly reasonable discussion to anyone with a real interest in yacht design and sailing characteristics.

 

[Poignard]

...that had died (along with most lovers of long keeled boats).
.

I ain't gone yet sonny (he croaked from his deathbed )

 

[Tradewind 35]

Thanks for resurrecting the thread that had died (along with most lovers of long keeled boats).

Read back through and you will see that the characteristics of traditional long keeled boats can be found in many fin keeled boats.

The trouble is that some modern racy fin keeled boats (with the advantages and disadvantages that design brings to the racing and fast cruising scene) tend to make people lump ALL fin keeled boats together. People think that all fin keeled boats don't track, don't lie peacefully hove to, heel too much, are tender and their motion is wearing in a seaway, etc etc.

Choose the right fin keeled boat and none of this is true. You retain all the nice seaworthiness of "some" long keeled boats, and you lose the pain the backside boat handling and tedious slowness that some long keeled boats exhibit.

I'm afraid that the 1986 book was behind the times then and is even more behind the times now. hull and keel designs change and sometimes its for the better.

I'm interested in why you think the thread was/is bizarre? It seemed to me to be a perfectly reasonable discussion to anyone with a real interest in yacht design and sailing characteristics.

Need to read the book before assuming the mathematics of hull stability have changed.