BobPrell
Well-Known Member
Not many, as we ferro fans know to our chagrin.
What's the fascination with long keels?
- Thread starter john_morris_uk
- Start date
Not many, as we ferro fans know to our chagrin.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
No boatyard is complete without one or two abandoned ferro-cement projects quietly mouldering away among the weeds.
ksutton
Well-Known Member
You cannot create simplistic “cut and dry” arguments whether to purchase heavy displacement or light displacement based purely on performance. There are numerous considerations that have to be taken into account depending on personal preferences. There can never be a one size fits all.
Looking at preferences my choice directed me to a long keeled yacht because most of the requirements below are just not available on a yacht built primarily for “lightness” speed and pointing ability.
Under 36 foot
Heavy bomb proof standing and running rigging
Not a high free board
Yanmar engine
Encapsulated keel
Rudder supported at its base on skeg
Cutter rig
Large fuel and water tanks fitted low down in the hull and on the yachts centre line
Single fuel tank with an integral lowered sump in its base to take off fuel samples and catch sludge
Plenty of storage also low down in the hull, below the cabin sole or at least at minimal distance above the water line
Wheel steering with direct auto pilot drive to steering mechanism with heavy S/S rod connection to rudder quadrant, (absolutely no chain or wire ropes)
Facility to quickly fit emergency steering tiller
Large chain locker and powerful electric windlass
Plenty of opening cabin port lights
Plenty of ventilation via dorade vents
Good cabin and hull insulation
Heavily laid up hull
Easy engine access, underway if necessary
As it happens I have still averaged 6.8 knots across Biscay, Ushant to Corunna in a F7/8 following wind and quartering 3 meter swell. My only problem was the cold, but I couldn’t choose the temperature.
Looking at preferences my choice directed me to a long keeled yacht because most of the requirements below are just not available on a yacht built primarily for “lightness” speed and pointing ability.
Under 36 foot
Heavy bomb proof standing and running rigging
Not a high free board
Yanmar engine
Encapsulated keel
Rudder supported at its base on skeg
Cutter rig
Large fuel and water tanks fitted low down in the hull and on the yachts centre line
Single fuel tank with an integral lowered sump in its base to take off fuel samples and catch sludge
Plenty of storage also low down in the hull, below the cabin sole or at least at minimal distance above the water line
Wheel steering with direct auto pilot drive to steering mechanism with heavy S/S rod connection to rudder quadrant, (absolutely no chain or wire ropes)
Facility to quickly fit emergency steering tiller
Large chain locker and powerful electric windlass
Plenty of opening cabin port lights
Plenty of ventilation via dorade vents
Good cabin and hull insulation
Heavily laid up hull
Easy engine access, underway if necessary
As it happens I have still averaged 6.8 knots across Biscay, Ushant to Corunna in a F7/8 following wind and quartering 3 meter swell. My only problem was the cold, but I couldn’t choose the temperature.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Which company please makes these and how much are they?
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
That's the Sir Humphrey argument " nothing must ever be done for the first time!"
She clearly has too much ballast in the wrong places if she needs to haul herself aboard, not that you should say so of course.
There is no denying that technology and Harley dont go together. But then who in their right mind would ride a Harley for any distance as opposed to an RT or a Pan etc? They are another example of sentimental attachment to things past plus in their case a hobby of modification / one off building. Analogous to the long keel.
I too have sailed a boat with unstayed carbon masts - brilliant and very very tough. But the boat concerned, a Freedom, has a keel and underwater profile that ensures she points badly and struggles to keep up with more modern designed boats 10 foot shorter. Shame. Bit pointless really.
Sorry - can't let this last point go. You are right of course in some situations - but there are others - many others - where the Freedom will beat the pants of all-comers - just look at Gary Hoyts record and his famous bet - to beat any comer in a proper ocean race.
Many of your "more modern designed boats" or AWBs just do not have the rig nor underwater profile for effective racing and manoeuvering. Shame. Bit pointless really.
ksutton
Well-Known Member
Vancouver 34C, by Northshore, agree they are not cheap but that still should not an argument for heavy against light displacement choice, as per this thread, or is it. They are still built old way with hull and deck bonded together, so hand fitting out internally with limited access is very labour intensive. Have had one for 9 years and now live on board 8 months a year, nothing broke on it yet.
Wandering Star
Well-Known Member
Vancouver - who else! Apart from the engine manufacturer (bukh) my V27 has all those characteristics, assuming Northshore will accommodate a request for a Yanmar inboard, I'm guess the V36 will fill the bill - at a cost of course and I'm not sure what that cost will be.
Cheers, Brian.
Edit: posted my reply 1 minute after ksutton - great minds etc!
westernman
Well-Known Member
I bet this boat with unstayed masts will beat the pants off the Freedom.
http://www.na.northsails.com/tabid/1945/default.aspx?news_id=2367
Ok it is a little big bigger
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
I bet this boat with unstayed masts will beat the pants off the Freedom.
http://www.na.northsails.com/tabid/1945/default.aspx?news_id=2367
Ok it is a little big bigger
Some AWB!
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Wow. That looks seriously quick. I like the overlapping 'slot' .
''Life is too short for ugly boats''
''Life is too short for ugly boats''
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
I bet this boat with unstayed masts will beat the pants off the Freedom.
http://www.na.northsails.com/tabid/1945/default.aspx?news_id=2367
Ok it is a little big bigger
No new fangled deep keels there then...
And a nice little transom hung rudder...
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
No new fangled deep keels there then...
And a nice little transom hung rudder...
Damn - you beat me to it!
Robin
Well-Known Member
The odd thing is that same specification is not too dissimilar to the Jeanneau (OK an oldie from 1988) we had, except that ours was 41ft.
Under 36 foot ours was 41ft, why go small?
Heavy bomb proof standing and running rigging yes
Not a high free board yes
Yanmar engine yes 44hp and with a Brunton prop
Encapsulated keel no, but then ours could stand nudging coral
Rudder supported at its base on skeg , no, but half skeg and very solid S/S stock
Cutter rig yes and with proper running backsyays too
Large fuel and water tanks fitted low down in the hull and on the yachts centre line large low water tanks, yes, fuel for 400mls but why motor?
Single fuel tank with an integral lowered sump in its base to take off fuel samples and catch sludge yes
Plenty of storage also low down in the hull, below the cabin sole or at least at minimal distance above the water line yes
Wheel steering with direct auto pilot drive to steering mechanism with heavy S/S rod connection to rudder quadrant, (absolutely no chain or wire ropes) We had wire and carried premade spares
Facility to quickly fit emergency steering tiller yes
Large chain locker and powerful electric windlass yes
Plenty of opening cabin port lights yes eleven IIRC
Plenty of ventilation via dorade vents yes
Good cabin and hull insulation yes
Heavily laid up hull yes, entire hull laid up with Kevlar, as per bullet proof vests.
Easy engine access, underway if necessary yes
Oh and we also had
Substantial granny bars at the mast
All three slab reefs in the fully battened main handled from the cockpit, one person job to put in or shake out
Both mainsail and roller headsail in Hydranet Spectra reinforced Dacron.
Stern gantry/goalposts carrying fixed solar panel and large wind generator.
Full sprayhood
Full bimini usable under sail and linking to the sprayhood or standalone, convertible into full cockpit enclosure.
Very comfortable cockpit underway and at anchor.
Ability to sail in light winds yet go to windward in a gale
Ability to keep up decent passage speeds in light winds
Cost? Well, in the region of £60,000, significantly cheaper I would guess than the Vancouver 34, even a well used one.
westernman
Well-Known Member
No new fangled deep keels there then...
And a nice little transom hung rudder...
No - that is not the rudder.
They reversed into the barn door while manouevering her from where she was built down to the water......
ksutton
Well-Known Member
I dont know the Jeanneau 41 Sun Legend, in fact in 25 years of ownership I have been happy enough with my yacht to have only had two, a 28 and now the 34. I have though sailed other peoples yachts of various pedigree and short or singled handed I was never happy with a fast performance design. I like the yacht to feel right and give me plenty of advanced warning when she needs a bit of attention. This is why I said under 36' also to keep things well under control while short handed, tired and cold. However I do acknowledge I have never been in a hurry about anything, life is too short.
I did Google for a report of the 41 Sun Legend and it doesn't seem to warrant the side by side comparison that you are trying to make.
Quote:
Jeaneaus have always struck me as one step below Beneteau on build quality and several steps down on design quality. The Sun Legend 41 is a recycled IOR typeform hull and rig cut down to make a cruising boat of sorts. They represent the kind of thinking that made the IOR rule so notorious, under ballasted, tender and prone to being over powered and wiping out but with poor light air performance.
While these boats have a certain cult following they have never appealled to me. Perhaps some of my distain for these boats comes from watching an acquaintance try to put one back together after being in the charter trade.
To me they are underwhelming and over priced.
I did Google for a report of the 41 Sun Legend and it doesn't seem to warrant the side by side comparison that you are trying to make.
Quote:
Jeaneaus have always struck me as one step below Beneteau on build quality and several steps down on design quality. The Sun Legend 41 is a recycled IOR typeform hull and rig cut down to make a cruising boat of sorts. They represent the kind of thinking that made the IOR rule so notorious, under ballasted, tender and prone to being over powered and wiping out but with poor light air performance.
While these boats have a certain cult following they have never appealled to me. Perhaps some of my distain for these boats comes from watching an acquaintance try to put one back together after being in the charter trade.
To me they are underwhelming and over priced.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Despite all that he got it wrong.
I bet he does not think so- and thats all that really matters.
doug748
Well-Known Member
The odd thing is that same specification is not too dissimilar to the Jeanneau ......
Aye, like two peas in a pod.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
Apart from 1 foot 10 inches longer and no fuel tank sump it sounds like our IP.
E39mad
Well-Known Member
I raced a Sun Legende 41 alot twenty plus years ago. Helios was the boat. I have also sailed V34's and it's predecessor the V32. Contrary to modern french production boats the Sun Legende was a well built boat with lots of solid joinery work down below..... however ... to put it in the same category as a Vancouver is rather beyond the mark! Directional stability and balance under sail especially are poles apart particularly if short handed.
Both are lovely boats but are for different markets imho.
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
Long keel allows me to do what I like doing - manoeuvering under sail - in my opinion it is best for this.
Now - do you "fly a biplane"? - is your mast stayed? a silly idea that technology hasnt moved on - to the cantilever. Do you need a stayed mast for a tight luff? are you doing it because your ancestors did?
Stayed masts are obsolete. Like...
