What price Safety?

[yoda]

I have recently completed a risk assessment for a coastal race and in order to mitigate a number of risks decided that while the race would be categorised at Cat 4 all boats should in addition carry lifejackets fitted with spray hoods and lights iaw OSR Cat 3. Now I think that the cost of these (~£90 if you shop around) is a small price to pay for such an important piece of equipment but I have owners saying that this will put them off racing. Is it me or are their priorities wrong when they are paying out £thousands to run their boats every year?

Your thoughts?

Yoda

 

[lpdsn]

£90 times 8 or 10 or however many they need for crew. You could mitigate it by offering to cover half the cost.

 

[yoda]

We are talking about crews of 4 or 5. Not sure why an organising committee would want to pay for an individuals safety equipment. Would you tell your crew that you don't value their life at £90?

Yoda

 

[Pete54]

If it is genuinely a Cat 4 race then in what way does a Cat 3 compliant LJ mitigate any of the risks? The light is irrelevant as Cat 4 is daylight. The sprayhood might have some benefit - but Cat 4 is supposed to be inshore in sheltered water so is there a real benefit?

At fist reading this looks like classic 'ealth and safety, i.e. adding on stuff because it must be 'better'...............

 

[yoda]

It all depends on your interpretation of Cat 3 and Cat 4. Unfortunately races don't always fall nicely into the definitions of Cat 3 or Cat 4. Only by undertaking a full risk assessment with an analysis of what Cat 4 and Cat 3 actually deliver in terms of safety equipment can you decide what criteria are appropriate to the race. What I hadn't said was that there were other requirements on top of Cat 4 and the predicted weather and sea state limitations within which the race would start were also defined. Strangely it seems to be the lifejacket requirement is the one causing an issue rather than some other potentially more expensive requirements. It is certainly not just classic 'ealth and safety' rather a pragmatic approach to ensuring suitable safety equipment for the nature of the race determined through a very thorough risk analysis from first principles iaw with RYA guidance. Still can't see the issue with a few hundred pounds in lifejackets that could save somebodies life.

Yoda

 

[dunedin]

And what are the rules for wearing them? Otherwise just expensive locker junk for some fully crewed race boats

 

[Ingwe]

Hi Yoda

I have thought for a number of years that all our "inshore" coastal races in Plymouth should be categorised as Cat 3 (probably with life raft if you are going to start a race when there is forecast to be over 20 knots of breeze during the race) I just don't see how all the clubs have deluded themselves for so long that they are Cat 4. As an example on a race from Plymouth to Falmouth I have been over twenty miles offshore in 30 knots and decent size waves before now and in that position if the mast comes down, holes the boat and you start to sink it is going to take a lifeboat a minimum of 2 hours to reach you. Even on a race down to Fowey you can end up 15 miles from the nearest suitable lifeboat station.

Your right though that the lifejackets are a minor problem the real issue is going to be that a lot of the older smaller boats that currently race are probably not going to meet things like the stability / hatch size / cockpit drain aspects of the regs so quite a few of the boats will no longer be able to race - but I don't think you have any choice because if (when) there is a serious incident any investigation would come down on the clubs like a tonne of bricks for not having the races categorised correctly.

 

[yoda]

Hi Ingwe

I am pleased somebody else agrees. If you PM me an e-mail address I will send you more info. I have specifically looked at Plymouth to Salcombe and have effectively created 2 races so that those who wish to race Cat 3 with a Liferaft (which is actually not required under OSR Cat 3 ) can be started under more challenging conditions while the Cat 4 class will be much more limited.

Cheers
Yoda

 

[Yacht Yogi]

The coastal races run by JOG outside the Solent are Cat 4 unless they involve night sailing or a channel crossing, in which case they are Cat 3 (that seems to be the logic in their NoR). Alternatively the RORC coastal races outside the Solent are all Cat 3. This seems a bit odd since it is often the same boats in both JOG and RORC on essentially the same courses but with different categories. Personally, my boat is set up for Cat 3 for all coastal races but only carries the liferaft when stipulated.

 

[yoda]

The coastal races run by JOG outside the Solent are Cat 4 unless they involve night sailing or a channel crossing, in which case they are Cat 3 (that seems to be the logic in their NoR). Alternatively the RORC coastal races outside the Solent are all Cat 3. This seems a bit odd since it is often the same boats in both JOG and RORC on essentially the same courses but with different categories. Personally, my boat is set up for Cat 3 for all coastal races but only carries the liferaft when stipulated.

It is the Portland to Dartmouth race that is a bit of an oddball. You may call it coastal but you could well end up sailing in darkness and be a significant distance from either rescue or a safe haven when crossing Lyme Bay.

 

[lpdsn]

We are talking about crews of 4 or 5. Not sure why an organising committee would want to pay for an individuals safety equipment. Would you tell your crew that you don't value their life at £90?

No, if I was in the situation the owners appear to be in I'd just tell the crew that the organising committee had effectively added something like £450 to £900 to the entry fee and I wasn't doing that race. I don't know how many boats you'll lose as many regular racers will probably already meet the requirement so it'll be the less regulars that you lose.

Why not make a contribution as you've come along and specified this extar cost? Or even try to negotiate a bulk discount - albeit no doubt some will be suspicious that you might be on a cut.

 

[awol]

It ill behoves me to criticise anyone who gives their time and effort to organise and run racing - you have my admiration ......... but, it all seems a bit nanny state to up the category and also place strictures on starting and predicted meteorological conditions. Are you also taking the responsibility of scrutinising every entrant and unpacking their lifejackets to check or is it just an arse-covering exercise?
I am of the opinion that races should be run at the lowest category (highest number) for the expected race area and that the decision to race is for the skippers alone - but then I sail a somewhat more seaworthy boat than others.

 

[flaming]

The coastal races run by JOG outside the Solent are Cat 4 unless they involve night sailing or a channel crossing, in which case they are Cat 3 (that seems to be the logic in their NoR). Alternatively the RORC coastal races outside the Solent are all Cat 3. This seems a bit odd since it is often the same boats in both JOG and RORC on essentially the same courses but with different categories. Personally, my boat is set up for Cat 3 for all coastal races but only carries the liferaft when stipulated.

Not really an anomaly, as the JOG races are all timed to be completed in daylight, whereas the RORC does not run any daylight only races. The Dartmouth race last year was a cat 3.

My view would be that for a race that is designed to be completed in daylight Cat 4 is appropriate, although many skippers will specify higher. Yes you might be 20 miles offshore in 30 knots, but it is always the skipper's decision to sail or not and to continue or not. And it is perfectly allowable to specify "Cat 4 plus liferaft" if you want.

I would also argue that it would be better for the sport to encourage entries by specifying cat 4 and having in your mind that you will cancel the race with a forecast of 30kts than specifying Cat 3 and halving the entries for what in most years would be a pleasant day's sail in Summer.

 

[yoda]

It ill behoves me to criticise anyone who gives their time and effort to organise and run racing - you have my admiration ......... but, it all seems a bit nanny state to up the category and also place strictures on starting and predicted meteorological conditions. Are you also taking the responsibility of scrutinising every entrant and unpacking their lifejackets to check or is it just an arse-covering exercise?
I am of the opinion that races should be run at the lowest category (highest number) for the expected race area and that the decision to race is for the skippers alone - but then I sail a somewhat more seaworthy boat than others.

It is of course within the right of the organising committee to check compliance but not essential. Nothing takes away from the skippers decision to race - it is his alone. Unfortunately when it all goes wrong there will inevitably a scramble to identify where blame lies and it is the organisers job to satisfy themselves, their insurers and ultimately the courts that they have done everything appropriately. There are of course differing opinions and there will never be full agreement.

Yoda

 

[Ingwe]

My view would be that for a race that is designed to be completed in daylight Cat 4 is appropriate, although many skippers will specify higher. Yes you might be 20 miles offshore in 30 knots, but it is always the skipper's decision to sail or not and to continue or not. And it is perfectly allowable to specify "Cat 4 plus liferaft" if you want.

I would also argue that it would be better for the sport to encourage entries by specifying cat 4 and having in your mind that you will cancel the race with a forecast of 30kts than specifying Cat 3 and halving the entries for what in most years would be a pleasant day's sail in Summer.

I agree in principle with what your saying but the snag is that it relies on all of the skippers being experienced enough to make these decisions for themselves. But there is nothing stopping a complete novice buying a 20 foot boat that just bairly makes Cat 4 entering these races as there is nothing that says you have to have x amount of experience or x qualification to enter a specific race, so as we are saying that a complete novice can enter the organising authority has to take a reasonable level of responcibility for the saftey of the entrants and cannot rely on having somrthing like "it is the skipper's final responsibility as to whether they should sail or not".

I don't think there were too many this year but in the past we have had some 20 or 21 foot boats entering races in the series we are talking about here and on a couple of occasions they have probably only just got away with it. The common problem on races out of Plymouth (using the western entrance) is the stretch between Penlee Point on Rame head and the the breakwater, it's quite common to be sailing up to Rame head from the west in say 12 knots of South Westerly breeze and a half metre swell, you round Penlee and you go into the acceleration zone of the wind comming over the top of the point so have 18 to 20 knots of breeze and if the tide is going out you suddenly end up with steep 3 metre occasionally breaking waves - which isn't all that safe in a 20 foot boat. Still one of the most scary things I have had happen whilst sailing was back when I had a J24, we were sailing through exactly this spot in probably 20 knots of breeze downwind we were picked up on a wave as it broke, it was steep enough that our bow wave came back far enough that the keel must have come out the water before gravity took hold and the bow plummeted down the face of the wave we were fine but on a slightly smaller boat you would have been pitchpoled.

 

[lw395]

Not really an anomaly, as the JOG races are all timed to be completed in daylight, whereas the RORC does not run any daylight only races. The Dartmouth race last year was a cat 3.

My view would be that for a race that is designed to be completed in daylight Cat 4 is appropriate, although many skippers will specify higher. Yes you might be 20 miles offshore in 30 knots, but it is always the skipper's decision to sail or not and to continue or not. And it is perfectly allowable to specify "Cat 4 plus liferaft" if you want.

I would also argue that it would be better for the sport to encourage entries by specifying cat 4 and having in your mind that you will cancel the race with a forecast of 30kts than specifying Cat 3 and halving the entries for what in most years would be a pleasant day's sail in Summer.

I tend to agree.
If there is a race offered for cat 4 boats, there should not be a significant risk that a cat 3 LJ is going to make a difference.
If that risk is real, then you really want a cat 3 boat from end to end.
I would imagine a significant number of cat4 boats would not race in such conditions anyway, so they will not feel much value from upgrading to an oceam LJ.
I spend some time in that area, I don't notice ever so many smaller yachts looking like another 'few hundred pounds' is no object.
It's going to be very annoying to spend that money then have the race cancelled because it's a bit windy.

 

[lw395]

I agree in principle with what your saying but the snag is that it relies on all of the skippers being experienced enough to make these decisions for themselves. But there is nothing stopping a complete novice buying a 20 foot boat that just bairly makes Cat 4 entering these races as there is nothing that says you have to have x amount of experience or x qualification to enter a specific race, so as we are saying that a complete novice can enter the organising authority has to take a reasonable level of responcibility for the saftey of the entrants and cannot rely on having somrthing like "it is the skipper's final responsibility as to whether they should sail or not".

I don't think there were too many this year but in the past we have had some 20 or 21 foot boats entering races in the series we are talking about here and on a couple of occasions they have probably only just got away with it. The common problem on races out of Plymouth (using the western entrance) is the stretch between Penlee Point on Rame head and the the breakwater, it's quite common to be sailing up to Rame head from the west in say 12 knots of South Westerly breeze and a half metre swell, you round Penlee and you go into the acceleration zone of the wind comming over the top of the point so have 18 to 20 knots of breeze and if the tide is going out you suddenly end up with steep 3 metre occasionally breaking waves - which isn't all that safe in a 20 foot boat. Still one of the most scary things I have had happen whilst sailing was back when I had a J24, we were sailing through exactly this spot in probably 20 knots of breeze downwind we were picked up on a wave as it broke, it was steep enough that our bow wave came back far enough that the keel must have come out the water before gravity took hold and the bow plummeted down the face of the wave we were fine but on a slightly smaller boat you would have been pitchpoled.

'but we always set that course on bank holiday monday'?

I think, with respect, there are 20ft boats which are at least as seaworthy as J24s.

 

[Muddy32]

JOG week is all in daylight, or at least planned to be. Cat 4 plus harnesses. Includes across Lyme Bay and Dartmouth to and from Plymouth. Personally, having sailed all along this bit of UK for 50 years, I have yet to find a need to wear a lj. Why do I need to have a more expensive lj designed for possible long immersions at night sitting in a locker. Rule 4 rules OK. My posterior doesn't need covering.

 

[yoda]

Unfortunately when you do a proper risk assessment you start to realise the possibilities that Cat 4 can bring about. I wouldn't trust 2 orange smokes and a hand held VHF to be enough to raise an alarm quick enough in the centre of Lyme Bay to bring help out to a potentially life threatening situation. To me Cat 4 just doesn't have sufficient equipment for that kind of passage. I agree in the confines of the Solent it is different but mid way across Lyme Bay is little different to being midway across the channel to Cherbourg.

 

[Muddy32]

Unfortunately when you do a proper risk assessment you start to realise the possibilities that Cat 4 can bring about. I wouldn't trust 2 orange smokes and a hand held VHF to be enough to raise an alarm quick enough in the centre of Lyme Bay to bring help out to a potentially life threatening situation. To me Cat 4 just doesn't have sufficient equipment for that kind of passage. I agree in the confines of the Solent it is different but mid way across Lyme Bay is little different to being midway across the channel to Cherbourg.

Maybe I would not expect that shore based "emergency services" to come and look after any situation that I got myself into! I would be surrounded by other competitors, a situation not encountered when I crossed in January with a NE 6-8. I did tell the coastguard however, but made sure that I can look after myself. Likewise I wouldn't expect the OA or RO to take the onus of responsibility to tell me what to do. If you want higher level l/j s then get them yourself. Nobody is stopping you.