What modern material would have made most difference to 18th Century sailing ships?

[prv]

I agree the stretch of the cotton sails would be the biggest factor but it's what the modern materials have allowed us to do to the design that is significant.

Flax sails. Cotton was strictly an exotic material for (some) racing yachts until the 20th century.

Modern design knowledge would no doubt help to a degree, but they weren't idiots back then. There's only so much you can do with weak, stretchy materials.

Pete

 

[AntarcticPilot]

A single material wouldn't make much difference. A sailing vessel - especially a large one - is a system, so if you strengthen one bit, you have to strengthen another to accept the increased loading. If they'd had (for example) modern fibres, they would have put too much load on the wooden spars and hulls. Steel is about the only thing I can think of that could potentially replace enough of the structure to make a workable system, but of course, they had steel - just no means of producing and fabricating it in the quantities required for a vessel. And that brings in another factor - you can have the most marvellous material, but without the infrastructure to use it to fabricate a vessel, it isn't much use. Brunel's achievement wasn't just building "Great Britain" (out of wrought iron, not steel) - it was creating the infrastructure required to build her in the first place.

Actually, the biggest technological improvement in the 18th century was copper cladding; it allowed British Naval vessels to stay at sea for longer without needing docking to clean the hull.

 

[prv]

A single material wouldn't make much difference. A sailing vessel - especially a large one - is a system, so if you strengthen one bit, you have to strengthen another to accept the increased loading.

All very true - but I do think better fibres than hemp for standing rigging would still be useful. Same loads, but less windage from thinner cordage. An 18th-century rig is practically opaque from some angles, there's so much stuff in the air. And you can use it without any great change in tools and techniques, just a few lessons in new splices though I'm sure a canny rigger of the period could soon work something out - big ropes were laid 3 or 4 strand, but they had braided sennit for robands and suchlike.

And you can give the surgeons a big box of antibiotics each without any surrounding infrastructure, as long as you can convince them it's more effective than leeches

Pete

 

[macd]

And you can give the surgeons a big box of antibiotics each without any surrounding infrastructure, as long as you can convince them it's more effective than leeches

The biggest killer on long passages was scurvy. On trips to the E Indies, often only half the crew would survive the return trip, principally due to this one condition, which is a slow and horribly painful way to die. It probably killed more mariners than any other circumstance. Hence my earlier suggestion of vitamin C.

The mechanism of scurvy was little understood even at the time of Scott and Shackleton (I imagine Antarctic Pilot knows volumes about this). Shackleton, who'd been stricken with scurvy on his expedition with Scott, became acutely aware of this, knew that fresh meat had an 'antidote', and made every effort to provide it for his men. In the 18th Century Cook's crews were invariably scurvy-free, because he insisted on feeding them scurvy grass (which made him rather unpopular). Cook made it a disciplinary offence not to eat one's ration. However the provision of scurvy grass was far from widespread.

Poignantly, in the late 17th Century a RN captain noted in his report to the admiralty that certain fresh produce had rendered his voyage to the Far East entirely scurvy-free. The information was duly filed away and forgotten about for a couple of centuries.

(I can't helped adding, only slightly tongue-in-cheek, that if they'd had antibiotics in the 18th Century, the present problem with resistant bacteria would surely be immeasurably worse.)

 

[prv]

The biggest killer on long passages was scurvy. On trips to the E Indies, often only half the crew would survive the return trip, principally due to this one condition, which is a slow and horribly painful way to die. It probably killed more mariners than any other circumstance. Hence my earlier suggestion of vitamin C.

Yep, and mine of modern long-life food

Bit boring compared to a carbon-fibre topsail yard, but it's the little things that matter.

Pete

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The biggest killer on long passages was scurvy. On trips to the E Indies, often only half the crew would survive the return trip, principally due to this one condition, which is a slow and horribly painful way to die. It probably killed more mariners than any other circumstance. Hence my earlier suggestion of vitamin C.

The mechanism of scurvy was little understood even at the time of Scott and Shackleton (I imagine Antarctic Pilot knows volumes about this). Shackleton, who'd been stricken with scurvy on his expedition with Scott, became acutely aware of this, knew that fresh meat had an 'antidote', and made every effort to provide it for his men. In the 18th Century Cook's crews were invariably scurvy-free, because he insisted on feeding them scurvy grass (which made him rather unpopular). Cook made it a disciplinary offence not to eat one's ration. However the provision of scurvy grass was far from widespread.

Poignantly, in the late 17th Century a RN captain noted in his report to the admiralty that certain fresh produce had rendered his voyage to the Far East entirely scurvy-free. The information was duly filed away and forgotten about for a couple of centuries.

(I can't helped adding, only slightly tongue-in-cheek, that if they'd had antibiotics in the 18th Century, the present problem with resistant bacteria would surely be immeasurably worse.)

As you say, scurvy was a factor in polar exploration up to and including Scott's era. Of course, Captain Cook had instituted a very effective nutritional regime, which was adopted and enforced by the Royal Navy by mixing lime juice with the rum ration! From the 18th century, fresh fruit and vegetables were known to be a cure for scurvy; of course the problem was in finding anti-scorbutic foods that could be preserved for the length of a long voyage; where weight and volume weren't a problem, concentrated lime (or other citrus) juice was a good answer. Scurvy wasn't a problem for Nelson's navy normally; they didn’t know what caused it but they knew how to prevent it and to cure it on an empirical basis. The problem for Polar explorers was that they needed a high calorie diet but had strong constraints on weight - everything had to be hauled by man or dog. Pemmican (dried meat, fat and dried fruit pounded together) was an excellent high calorie food, but lacked what we now know are the essential vitamins. The well known anti-scorbutic, lime juice, was too bulky and heavy for use under the constraints of the heroic age of polar exploration, and vitamin C had yet to be isolated and it's importance for nutrition understood.

Sadly, belief in the effectiveness of fresh meat also took a toll - less than that of scurvy, but still resulting in some deaths. The problem arises because in the polar regions there isn't much fresh meat that doesn't come from carnivores, and carnivores concentrate vitamin A in their livers. In fact, they can concentrate it enough that their liver is poisonous; vitamin A is necessary in small amounts, but poisonous in excess. Vitamin A poisoning has been implicated in the deaths of polar explorers including Xavier Mertz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_Mertz), and suspected as a factor in other cases.

 

[Jonas]

This is my favourite thread for ages.
I don't agree with Antarctic Pilot that no one material would make much difference, because historically that's sort of the way things developed. Improved castings led to stuns'l & Jibboom irons, and cast truss irons for yards. As chains improved they were used in the rigging, eg as chain slings. Cordage improved throughout the period from 15th to 20th centuries, both in material quality & manufacturing methods. Sheaves and blocks again constantly improved with material technology. All these things led to improvements over what went before.
I don't see that sail material or even modern cordage would have improved things to a great extent, although undoubtedly they would have made life easier in some ways.
I did like the suggestion of copper sheathing, certainly made a difference to speed, less careening and kept the wood-eating bugs at bay.
I don't think that antibiotics and knowledge of vitamins fits into the spirit of the question, though it is fascinating to think what difference they might have made. That would really have been a society-wide change rather than just on ships. What was the incidence of scurvy ashore? Maybe not so much as vegetables were cheaper than meat.
However if the ships were faster there would be less time at sea and less likelihood of contracting scurvy.
I'm sticking with steel standing rigging as the best improvement. The more modern ships after steel standing rigging was introduced didn't even need channels to mount the shrouds, and could leave masts aloft rather than having to drop them to protect the ship.

 

[prv]

Scurvy wasn't a problem for Nelson's navy normally; they didn’t know what caused it but they knew how to prevent it and to cure it on an empirical basis.

Indeed - didn't they ship out a fair bit of fresh veg in the resupply convoys to the blockade squadrons that stayed at sea for months or years?

Pete

 

[prv]

I don't see that [...] modern cordage would have improved things to a great extent,
[...]
I'm sticking with steel standing rigging as the best improvement.

They're almost the same thing! When I suggested modern fibres for rigging, I meant modern, not late 20th century . Vectran shrouds and backstays instead of steel - just as strong, lighter, and as a bonus the 18th century rigger would be able to use many of the techniques he was used to with hemp. With modern fibre rigging, even top-flight racing boats have gone back to deadeyes and lanyards, in anodised aluminium and Spectra instead of lignum vitae and Italian hemp.

Pete

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Indeed - didn't they ship out a fair bit of fresh veg in the resupply convoys to the blockade squadrons that stayed at sea for months or years?

Pete

As you say, the blockade squadrons were frequently resupplied with fresh food. But cruisers operating far from supply bases were quite capable of avoiding scurvy; they carried ample supplies of citrus juice, and knew that fresh vegetables - of almost any description - would work in a pinch.

I did like the suggestion of copper sheathing, certainly made a difference to speed, less careening and kept the wood-eating bugs at bay.

They did use copper sheathing; it was what gave the RN an edge over the French during the earlier part of the 18th century.

 

[Jonas]

Fair point well made!

 

[johnalison]

According to a book I read years ago, the main thing missing from all early ship was torsional stiffness, which wasn't designed in until the nineteenth century, so it may be more a matter of design philosophy than materials that was missing.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

According to a book I read years ago, the main thing missing from all early ship was torsional stiffness, which wasn't designed in until the nineteenth century, so it may be more a matter of design philosophy than materials that was missing.

Diagonal bracing was, I think, developed during the Napoleonic wars. In fact, I've just checked, and Robert Seppings seems to have developed it in about 1805. This is interesting: http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Shipbuilding/Seppings(1818).html

 

[johnalison]

Very interesting, though writing concise English was not his forte. It seems to have been post Trafalgar anyway.

 

[mtb]

Carbon fibre and Dyneema. All those masts and rigging must have weighed a fair bit.

over 200 tons in a ship of the line in rigging

Antyfoul would have made all the difference

copper plating wore out became damaged in rough sea's or battle or got so thin it was no good, also weed growth was still a problem after many years at sea on copper bottomed hulls
the problem of using steel wire and or mast's, is fixing it
wood can be repaired rope spliced large timbers and yards fished. I recone they knew what they were about plus of course if a new yard was needed over sea's the ships carpenter could find what he wanted and fell it and fettle it to his requirements

 

[johnalison]

over 200 tons in a ship of the line in rigging

RH Dana describes how they stowed the topmasts on deck before rounding the Horn, in Two Years before the Mast, which was around the 1840s in a trading vessel, so they were still concerned about weight and windage aloft then.

 

[mtb]

RH Dana describes how they stowed the topmasts on deck before rounding the Horn, in Two Years before the Mast, which was around the 1840s in a trading vessel, so they were still concerned about weight and windage aloft then.

I'm reading dudley pope ( or alexander kent ) this autumn I read his other series ramage. I'm on the bolitho series and now half way through the 29 books I get emotional reading book after book of every day life on board the battles and so on. Ok I know its fiction but still the history from the period is factual re wars and places and i enjoy learning about the rigs used how the ship was sailed / managed
I read them all five or six years ago and thought it was about time to fetch em out again for one last read before clearing the book shelf

 

[prv]

the problem of using steel wire and or mast's, is fixing it
wood can be repaired rope spliced large timbers and yards fished.

You can splice wire.

Pete

 

[AntarcticPilot]

You can splice wire.

Pete

Yes, but I think the point was about fixing battle damage. You certainly can't splice wire in a hurry to repair battle damage; it needs a vice and a bench, ideally. And you can't knot it as you can hemp, which was the way they handled damage during a battle.

 

[prv]

Yes, but I think the point was about fixing battle damage. You certainly can't splice wire in a hurry to repair battle damage; it needs a vice and a bench, ideally. And you can't knot it as you can hemp, which was the way they handled damage during a battle.

Better send 'em some bulldog clips along with it, then . That's probably quicker than trying to do a long splice while people are shooting at you

Pete