B27
Well-known member
It's a conspiracy to promote One Designs.
What is the experience so far of the new RYA handicap system?
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
I sail possibly the archetype of those, and I can assure you they're not without their own controversies.
B27
Well-known member
People who want controversy will find it.
The problem with PY is that people don't agree whether it's supposed to be based on the capabilities of the boat, the performance of the average boat of that design, or some sort of 'personal handicap'.
Then whatever it is supposed to do, it doesn't do it very well because the data collection and processing is at best, compromised.
The Numpty-HC system was a clear personal handicap, but the way people race under it, there was never enough data, people didn't race often enough for the numbers to stabilise and average out courses and weather and all that..
IRC is a rating system, it is limited by having one number for all courses and conditions, so works OK for similar boats, not so good for say Folkboats vs J24s or big vs small.
Things like 'ton cups', you race level and designing your boat to perform best at its rating is a big part of the game.
flaming
Well-known member
They've almost disappeared though...
The last time the 1 ton cup was sailed it was sailed by the Fast 40s, and raced on IRC....
The issue with level rating classes is that boats are very quickly made uncompetitive by the next season's new launches.
The current trend is to use IRC to correct out the small variations. So for example the 1/4 ton class now race on IRC. And there are other classes such as the HP30s, P40s etc where they define certain things like max length, max displacement, minimum SA/D etc, whatever they want to limit it to the type of boat that they are trying to attract, but then race under IRC. It's a good idea frankly...
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
NHC is a rating for muck about club racing. To have it replaced lock stock and barrel by a measured ‘watered down IRC’ see,s like madness to me. We use NHC at my club, sure there’s some amusing anomalies, especially when the PRO decides to award a prestigious cup to the NHC winner of a one design class, rather than the first on the water. But then, I would say that
We actually run our main Saturday race series as both, with an award for each. However, in general I’m a proponent on NHC for getting boats to the start line. We can even race the dragonfly on NHC, though at 1.265 it’s quite hard work.
We actually run our main Saturday race series as both, with an award for each. However, in general I’m a proponent on NHC for getting boats to the start line. We can even race the dragonfly on NHC, though at 1.265 it’s quite hard work.
Birdseye
Well-known member
PY like NHC is a "personal" handicap, just like a golf handicap is. You are right that PY failed because clubs couldnt be bothered to send in race result data and in many cases didnt operate PY correctly anyway, using it as a fixed handicap rather than changing race to race.
Hence NHC where the base numbers werent derived from race results but from design data and with help from the people who run IRC. Depends on the club but in our club we do have enough competiors for the results to stabilise and give at least as close corrected times as IRC.
But the point that many IRC sailors miss when talking about NHC and PY is that they are for sailors, often family sailors, who are out in cruisers, even bilge keelers, for a days fun and a bit of leg pulling in the bar - they arent for the out and out racers. This is reflected in fleet numbers - we get much the biggest NHC fleet in the series from October to december because few are cruising UK waters then. The series from feb to april is also popular but the support for the summer series is a lot less.
B27
Well-known member
I've sailed a lot of dinghy races under PY and never seen two Lasers have different PYs.
Different people have different ideas about what PY is supposed to do, but in dinghies, nobody uses it as a full personal handicap. I think the official weasel words are about altering PYs to suit local conditions and discarding results from e.g. beginners and people who capsize a lot.
I don't know anyone who races dinghies who wants personal handicaps as the main event, although some clubs and classes run personal handicaps 'on the side', which can be good.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Deleted
Birdseye
Well-known member
Sure you are right - its decades since I last raced dinghies. Not sure that Lasers even existed then! But altering base numbers was an option for clubs and certainly happened with cruisers.
One of the arguments for NHC was that the computerised handicap system removed this freedom from club race officers who could be put in awkward positions with the old PY or at least harangued by some members. Favouritism and all that. Trouble was they also removed the handicap adjustments giving in some cases the same handicap for bilge and fin and the same for spinny/ no spinny, fixed 3 blade vs folding 2 blade , the idea being that initially in a series adjustment would be fast and therefore take into account base handicaps that were not realistic for some boats.
