What do I need for a long sailing trip?

[Guest]

Hi All,

This is quite a bit of information that I would like to collect here, I just hope you have the patience to answer. Thanks in advance...

My friend and I are planning to sail from Finland to Cyprus on a Scanper 22. Yes it is only 22 feet, but we have no money to buy anything bigger. We are planning costal hopping, but ocasionally we would be offshore, like from Denmark to Helgoland and from Menorca to Sardegna. Most of my practical experience is from the Finnish archipelago, and just now we are on a theory course that is supposed to give us all the knowledge up to oceanmaster level. We plan to start in August.

The questions:
1. What do you think is the minimal necessary equipment regarding safety, communication, navigation and maintenance?
2. What do you think we should take with us that we otherwise wouldn't even think of?
3. We plan to make this trip in 4-5 months. Is it realistic? What kind of fees can we account for in different ports and marinas, how much money should we have if we have moderate drinking habits?
4. We do not have an internationally recognised certificate of competence yet, and most probably we will not have it by the time we start. Can it cause any problem for us with the authorities?
5. What do you think is the most economical way of buying charts, books and other equipment? If second hand is good, we go for it! Where?
6. What is the difference between a normal car battery and the batteries used in sail boats for lights and other electronic equipment? Are they interchangeable?

Yepp, this is what I can think of now. Thanks for any suggestions and advicce.

Mario

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[oldharry]

Seems to me the stony silence from contributors says it all....

Nothing wrong with doing it in a 22 footer, but the boat is only as safe as the people sailing it, and I for one am a bit worried that you are asking so many rather basic questions about your trip?

On the other hand, taken carefully you could have a fantastic time. Rather than ask for exhaustive lists here, go and read as many books as you can by people who have done extended small boat cruising.

The only answer I will gve here is to your last question about batteries. Auto batteries are designed to give a massive wallop to a starter motor, then go back on charge. They will not give or tolerate lengthy periods of slow discharge. The voltage drops off significantly quite quickly. Deep Cycle batteries, or the so called Leisure Batteries, are designed to maintain their voltage during extended discharge periods, and will not be damaged by being run down to around 50% charge. You must seriously consider how you are going to keep your batteries charged up on such a small boat. Marinas have shore power supplies which you can use for chargeing, but you may go several days without going in to one... and anyway its a whole lot cheaper not to!

MY other misgiving is that, unless you are planning to go through the French Canals - for which you must have a Certificate of Competence - you will be traversing Biscay in the equinoctial Gale season: a bit dodgy even in a boat twice the size? You need to think very carefully about that one. Are you prepared for seas up to 35 or more feet that are reported out there in the autumn and winter?

Finally, crossing the Elbe estuary you will need to pick your weather. Anything more than a F4 onshore out there and you will be having a very bad time indeed during the ebb - it is notorious.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by oldharry on 14/05/2003 09:12 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Jacket]

Hi,

I sailed from the UK to Finland and most the way back in a boat not much bigger (24 feet). I had a great time, and feel that in many ways taking the trip in a small boat is much more fun. Not only can you always squeeze into a harbour, no matter how crowded it is, you can also often fit into small fishing harbours closed to larger boats. these are often the most enjoyable stops. Locals seem to be much more inclined to come and chat, and once you're further from home, many harbour masters don't even charge you berthing fees.

<1. What do you think is the minimal necessary equipment regarding safety, communication, navigation and maintenance?>

Liferaft, VHF, Flares, 2 handheld GPSs, full charts (including charts of harbours you intend to pass, just in case you have to divert due to bad weather), full tool kit and spares for every bit of equipment you view as vital.

<2. What do you think we should take with us that we otherwise wouldn't even think of? >

Cockpit cover. On a small boat it doubles your living space in harbour, and makes life much more pleasant when its raining.

<3. We plan to make this trip in 4-5 months. Is it realistic? What kind of fees can we account for in different ports and marinas, how much money should we have if we have moderate drinking habits? >

If you're going through the french canals, then its probably long enough. Otherwise its not. On a small boat you're much more dependant on the weather. On average, I recon I can sail every other day. It took me just under two months from Plymouth to Finland, but that was with an experienced and slightly suicidal crew. Unless you have a very seaworthy boat, trying to do it much quicker, while perfectly possible, would be misserable and wouldn't give you much time to visit the places you stop at (However, thats if trying to avoid night passages, which I did, as I like my sleep. A few night passages can reduce the time required significantly).

You sound rather inexperienced. While this isn't a huge problem- long trips, broken up into daysails is not much harder than learning to sail in your local area, and much more fun. However, try and avoid trips of much more than 10 hours, as you tend to get tired quickly and make silly mistakes. Not a problem if you're experienced, as you can get by on reflexes, but dangerous for beginners. And don't be too proud to stay in harbour unless the weathers suitable- its always much worse out there than it looks from inside the harbour.

4. We do not have an internationally recognised certificate of competence yet, and most probably we will not have it by the time we start. Can it cause any problem for us with the authorities?

I've never been asked for anything. However, in many countries you do need one, and if you have an accident and don't have a certificate, there will be major problems. Get one.

<5. What do you think is the most economical way of buying charts, books and other equipment? If second hand is good, we go for it! Where?>

Don't get second hand charts, unless they're totally up to date. I've got a dent on my keel to prove this!

<6. What is the difference between a normal car battery and the batteries used in sail boats for lights and other electronic equipment? Are they interchangeable?>

Get a decent marine battery if you can afford it, they last longer, and seem to hold there charge better.


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[dave_gibsea]

Hi Mario,

We did the trip from the UK to Finland and back too, and in a 24 footer. We had a great time and no problems. I'll add what I can to the previous questions/answers.


The questions:
1. What do you think is the minimal necessary equipment regarding safety, communication, navigation and maintenance?

Well as the others said flares, life jackets and a radio are "must haves" a mobile phone is useful for contacting marina's and getting spare parts etc. I would always take a wet-suite in case you have to go over the side and clear a fouled prop etc. A thermos flask for long days when it might be too bumpy to go below and make a hot drink. A means of rigging an emergency rudder (we had a bit of ply which was cut and drilled to allow fit onto the spinnaker pole in an emergency), bolt croppers to cut rigging away. Plywood pads with holes for self-tapping screws to cover any hull damage. A bilge pump you can operate from outside and a good capacity electric pump. A good tool box!

2. What do you think we should take with us that we otherwise wouldn't even think of?
Things you can't buy in other countries that you like at home. A jacket and tie in case you get invited onto a posh yacht or club! Engine spares if you have an unusual one, a good radio and means of playing tapes and CD's, lots of books to read. A sail repair kit.

3. We plan to make this trip in 4-5 months. Is it realistic? What kind of fees can we account for in different ports and marinas, how much money should we have if we have moderate drinking habits?
4 to 5 months sounds OK if you are talking about the summer period. We didn't spend a lot but keep clear of Marina's if you can, especially in the UK as they are expensive, lost of nice places still to anchor. In the UK it can cost over £18 a night for a yacht of your size in a UK marina.

4. We do not have an internationally recognised certificate of competence yet, and most probably we will not have it by the time we start. Can it cause any problem for us with the authorities?
At least get something offial looking made up on your PC and get it signed by an officer (or two) from your local Yacht club, also join you countires yachting association. Make sure you have proof of ownership of the boat such as a bill of sale. We were only ever checked by Dutch customs (looking for illegal substances I expect). Lots of paper in a professional looking file makes a good impression! Don't forget to photo-copy your passport and keep the copy safe. Get some travel insurance in case you get sick or robbed.

5. What do you think is the most economical way of buying charts, books and other equipment? If second hand is good, we go for it! Where?
Buy new large-scale charts of a big area and get odd ones of tricky places locally. Get some good pilot books which describe harbour entrances. I don't like second-hand charts but they are better than nothing. When you meet local sailors ask their advice and get them to show you things on their charts - make notes for reference.

6. What is the difference between a normal car battery and the batteries used in sail boats for lights and other electronic equipment? Are they interchangeable? Car battery for starting, leisure battery for domestic use. I like to have two starting batteries! You don't say what sort of engine you have, if it's an outboard you don't have an issue over starting batteries as you can probably hand-start but then you may have a problem charging. You need to be able to charge your batteries when you are miles from a marina!

As previously mentioned the Elbe is dangerous in anyting of a wind, similarly onshore winds (ie northerlies) can make the channels between the Frisian Islands very tricky. I scared myself coming between one of these in fesh on-shore wind, we had breaking seas for 100yds or more but we couldn't see them until it was too late to turn round. Also, be careful of the sand-banks that run parallel to the coast off the Belgian/French coast as far as Calais. Shipping off Antwerp is also a bit concerning especially in poor visibility.

Big thing to check is your rigging. Make sure all the standing rigging is in good shape and not too old.

I'm sure you will have lots of fun!!!

Dave


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[tcm]

Mario, I'm not sure if it actually *is* realistic.

Anyone who says 4-5 months is often hoping on 4 months. I'm guessing that the long route around gib is 5000 miles, making 40 miles a day - in a small boat this is an 8-10 hours sail every single day.

Add to this the fact the as others say, setting off in august means you risk onshore gales in biscay, and possibly even worse in the med - and average 7 gales every winter hit majorca and in the golfe of Lion the weather blows at force 6 or over for 200 days a year. I was out in the med in December and January, and it is not the sparkling sea depicted in the postcards - it is able to become violent very quickly, not something we see in Northern Europe.

Experience-wise you need to have done lots of night passages, i think, and defintiely be above ICC level of experience. Hence the worry that you ask "how much equipment we will need" and "how much money" because you should have a very god idea yourself - if you are ready to make the trip.

You proabbly won't get into trouble with authorities, largely because they will take pity on you on such a small boat. But inland, it is a requirement and you need ICC with CEVNI (search for CEVNI ) on all forums. An inland route is safer, but you need to shift along through those canals very quickly. I'm guessing you're young so visiting things isn't top of the agenda - god job because every stop will need to find food, fix the boat, and have a sleep.










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[Gunfleet]

Trouble is, I can imagine the letter someone would have written our Ellen...
Dear Ellen, I don't think your proposal to sail round Britain in a tatty little boat you bought out of your pocket money is a very good idea. I'd try nursing - obviously there's no call for young people to become mad heroic sailors who eventually cross oceans and chase records...

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[warrior40]

lots of CDs, varied selection, take ones that you would not normally consider.

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[Guest]

Sorry for the frustration that my "dummy" questions caused, but I'd rather ask these basic questions than overlook something important. In my experience asking people who actually done the thing is always much more effective than reading any books or manuals about the given topic. With this I am not saying that I want to skip the reading part, but this way at least I have an idea to start with...
Thanks for the clear explanation on batteries. It was really enlightening.
Where can I get information on the seasonal weather patterns of a given area, e.g. Biscay, or the North Sea, Elbe estuary? If we are in the Biscay in the gale season does that mean that we would be stuck in a port for months unless we decide to tackle 35 feet seas? I hope there are calmer days too even in that season...
Can we use the Kiel canal to pass under Denmark? What are the special difficulties there?
If we would decide to start next year, which starting date would you recommend?

Thanks,
Mario

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[Guest]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the many useful tips.
Regarding tricky, dangerous places, is there more of them? Elbe, sand-banks off the Belgian/French coast, frisian Islands? What is the situation with the September-November Med? Can we risk a passage from Menorca to Sardegna?

Mario

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[Guest]

> making 40 miles a day - in a small boat this is an 8-10 hours sail every single day
At least I calculated with the same speed as well, however there will be a number of 24 hour runs as weather and our sleep deprivation level permits.

> onshore gales in biscay, and possibly even worse in the med
If not starting in August, then what is the ideal timing? Can we avoid being caught in a serious gale if we carefully follow the weather forecasts, or are they too unpredictable there? Sailing in force six is not something *really* extraordinary for me up here in the Baltic. Can you tell what differences can I expect compared to that in the Med?

Thanks,
Mario

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[Guest]

John,

Thanks for your support. I think there is no really any other way to get that experience than doing it with whatever we have. Even though it is quite safe to practice in knee deep water, no one can actually learn swimming in it. I do not think that this will be easy and risk free so I do my best to be prepared...

Mario

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[tcm]

Re: ideal time, weather, language

okay. I think you should be ready to extend the trip for maintencne and so on, but make back the time with offshore running. I don't like the idea of "sleep deprivation" so you need to take alternate turns on watch and get some sleep where possible.

The ideal time I think would be to set off about now! - so you'd be in the north sea for june, biscay for july, cyprus for september/october. I would much more be in favour of that.

Yes, if you really carefully folow forecasts and are prepared to change route or stay in harbour a while, you should be okay. Key thing is not to be in a rush to make a destination. You can also call ahead to ask their ideas of forecasts.

Forecasts aren't (and seem not possible to be) as good in the med as in northern europe where the weather patterns are more predictable: big temperature variations make a vast difference between day and night, and from one day to the next, much more than in N europe where relative temperature gradients between land and sea are more stable, across wider areas.

It's also just occurred to me that your English is fantastic! Are you English? Or is this a second language? Of course, language a big problem for foreign travellers. Having English is a good asset for the trip, how about some French? Italian?

Good luck


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[Guest]

Re: ideal time, weather, language

We are not in a hurry, so we'll have time to wait for the seas to be more friendly. I did not literally mean sleep deprivation. You're right, we are plannig alternate turns on watch in case of a longer leg.

As of my English... Your comment really pleases my ego, but I guess I'm lucky that you did not hear my accent. I'm actually from mighty Hungary. French I speak a little, but even less Italian, so I have high hopes for encountering English speaking people on the way...

Thanks for the advices again.
Mario

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[oldharry]

Re: ideal time, weather, language

I joined a 36 footer that had just come through the Kiel canal last month without difficulty. The canal is designed for commercial shipping, so should be no problem for your 22 footer!

You do need to think carefully about the autumn gales in Biscay and off the Spanish Coast when you get there. No its not 35+ feet all the time, but you need to be prepared for it - mainly I think by allowing time to wait for the right weather, and not letting yourself get caught out a long way from shelter.

I'm still concerned at the timing - by time you get to the med it will be winter, with potential for much more bad weather.

If it were me, I would be looking to leave around this time of year, to get the best of the longer hours of daylight, and (possibly) less extreme weather.

Look up www.greatweather.co.uk - it has links to loads of useful weather information.

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[polarity]

my .02 Euros worth:

Keil canal no problem. Take a right up the Eider river half way along and that shoots you out directly east of Helgoland (go, buy cheap booze, leave.... Quickly.;-) Then I would go S into Holland and you can go along the coast inland for a fair while.. And get to do the 1am canal trip through the centre of Amsterdam.. great!!

I would tend to agree on the time (having gone from Barcelona to Poland on a 32 fter) sail for 4 months and start looking for somewhere to leave it! Come back and sail again. Otherwise you wont enjoy it half as much.

Dont think you have to buy everything a)new or b) just before you leave. With the exception of safety gear, get what you need as you go along - you will be amazed what is sudenly not so invaluable as you first thought. Why on earth buy your beer or your CDs in Finland??? head to Poland or even E Germany - Half the price. Swap your books , music and charts etc etc with other cruisers going the other way. Buy them as a last resort! If you bought all the charts you need you would not be able to leave the dock and they would be out of date by the time you get there! You are not exactly going off the beaten track here!!

The Canal du Midi leaves from Bordeaux and drops you in the Med, also there is a smaller canal whose name I forget that cuts off the NW corner of France. The canal du Midi is a lot of fun. Apparently you can rush through it in 10 days. I took 6 weeks "just because"

Def go off season - winter in the med can be a bit nasty but its onlt 4 mkonths long! It's very quiet unless its July/August but the weather is good anway (and in the high season I would reccomend being somewhere else!!)

Re out of date charts, rocks and land don't usually move, sand and mud banks do. However entrance chanels involve keeping between the red and the green! When indoubt you can use IFF rules (I Follow Ferrys) Avoid night entry with very out of date charts as a change in light characteristics can be very stressfull. - Also when the re arrange the whole port entry (I'm thinking Rostock here..) If your chart does not show the Copenhagen/Malmo bridge for example that could be hectic too!

Go for it and have a blast, you are right you will only learn by doing. If you wait until you have everything you need you will never leave!

Paul


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[Guest]

Dear Paul,

Thanks for your empathic answer. Some parts of the answer are not clear for me. Could you elaborate?

> I would tend to agree on the time ... sail for 4 months and start looking
> for somewhere to leave it! Come back and sail again.
> Otherwise you wont enjoy it half as much.
Do I get it right, that you mean that 4-5 months is not enough for the trip, and we should take it much more leisurely? Sail until november, leave the boat where we are and come back and continue later?

> The Canal du Midi leaves from Bordeaux...
Do you also suggest to take the canals instead of sailing around Spain and Portugal? For me being on engine is really a necessity and not part of the pleasure. What are the pros and cons here? One is time, I know, but we are not in a rush. The biggest constraint is money...

> Def go off season - winter in the med can be a bit nasty but its onlt 4
> mkonths long! It's very quiet unless its July/August but the weather is
> good anway (and in the high season I would reccomend being
> somewhere else!!)
So if I understand it right, our planned august departure is just great if we do not want to be there in the high season. When does the winter starts there (in the Med), what are the actual winter months? Can we expect gales and to freeze our asses off in October-November? According to the others we should be in the Med in end of July-August-September. So what is the ultimate truth? )

> Go for it and have a blast, you are right you will only learn by doing.
> If you wait until you have everything you need you will never leave!
Reading the commenst here we were seriously thinking that maybe we should postpone the trip until next May. Mainly because of the bad weather that we could expect, secondly to gain more experience. On the other hand there is plenty of time to read pilot books on the way, so your answer stirred up the water again...

Good luck with your Polar project!

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[polarity]

Mario

OK my opinions..! :

RE
>Do I get it right, that you mean that 4-5 months is not enough for the trip, and we should take it much more leisurely? Sail until november, leave the boat where we are and come back and continue later?

Thats exactly what I mean. Golden rule of sailing itinery: Never state a Time AND a Place!! If you can take it easy you will enjoy it much more, and wont feel pushed to take risks with the weather, leaving when you should be snugged up in the anchorage/port or missing out on exploring a river. .. After all you can get to Cyprus by plane and stick the boat on a truck!

RE
> The Canal du Midi leaves from Bordeaux...
Do you also suggest to take the canals instead of sailing around Spain and Portugal?

I would. (did!) Much more comfortable!

>For me being on engine is really a necessity and not part of the pleasure.

The C du M is lovely, you won't regret it! besides it will make a great change

>What are the pros and cons here?

Basically if you look at doing the whole of Biscay one one shot, you should be looking at it as if it was an Ocean crossing. Its not a nice piece of water as I and others will attest too! If you had a bigger boat I would consider it but with a smaller one you will have a lot more fun in the Midi than hammering into a SW 6 for 2 weeks.

>One is time, I know, but we are not in a rush. The biggest constraint is money...

The Midi would be faster, and when you want to stop... you stop and tie up. no Marina fees! - for me it was the cheapest part of the trip! Anyway you dont have to decide now!

>Can we expect gales and to freeze our asses off in October-November

The Meds a big place - was doing 26ft yacht deliveries in Greece in October a good few years back and it was horrible weather. Now I live in Barcelona and I can leave my balcony doors open until the middle of November. The Med is however prone to some sudden winds and calms. I have had great sailing here since Feb. (brrr!) and now is the big racing season.

>According to the others we should be in the Med in end of July-August-September.

Who provided that information? If you are going to charter a Beneteau for a few weeks then Jul/Aug/Sept is the time when every one else does.... enough said!

IMHO I would say August is way too late to leave - and also the Baltic will be very busy!

>Reading the commenst here we were seriously thinking that maybe we should postpone the trip until next May. Mainly because of the bad weather that we could expect, secondly to gain more experience.

Hmm thats a difficult one, more preperation or leave sooner... If it was an Atlantic crossing I would say more prep... as you will be coast hopping... what are you waiting for?? I was sailing in the Baltic last week, I got very sunburnt! - and yes there were a couple of nasty squalls that came through, but they were visible a mile off, reduce sail and on with the Musto's!

I dont know how much experience you have but if you sail solidly for a month thats about the same as a whole seasons weekend sailing, and if you have actually gone somewhere in that month you have gained a huge amount of experience! You dont have to be Nandor Fa!

If you have the opportunity go for it!

Paul





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