What did PhillM do wrong?

[FairweatherDave]

The joys of the forum. Best thread for ages for me. Brings to life issues I need to think about for the future. Things that hold little worry for seasoned pros are great food for thought for aspiring wannabees like me. I have never thought about radar and closing the shore. The single handed issue. The impact of GPS failure at a critical time.....really good stuff and best thought about first infront of a PC . Don't underestimate how useful this stuff is .... and it does end up getting put into practice in the real world

 

[FlyingGoose]

The joys of the forum. Best thread for ages for me. Brings to life issues I need to think about for the future. Things that hold little worry for seasoned pros are great food for thought for aspiring wannabees like me. I have never thought about radar and closing the shore. The single handed issue. The impact of GPS failure at a critical time.....really good stuff and best thought about first infront of a PC . Don't underestimate how useful this stuff is .... and it does end up getting put into practice in the real world

:encouragement: well said

 

[lw395]

Going back to early electronic days (I can't say pre . . . because I started navigation when RDF was used).
If viz was lost, the SOP I knew was to either anchor, if possible, where you were or to set a compass course in the general direction of open water and monitor the depth sounder.
Maybe this has been forgotten with all today's electronic aids, but the fact remains that in low viz our only source for position is GPS (and GLONASS or Galileo), loose that and you are back to pre RDF days and no sun or stars to point an astrolabe at

I once crewed from Yarmouth to Portsmouth in quite poor visibility, with no electronics apart from a Casio watch.
Without GPS, the old ways of following a compass course from buoy to buoy still work.
But it's all very well finding your way to Portsmouth Entrance or the top of Plymouth Sound. If the vis gets worse those busy places are generally where the real problems start.

 

[lw395]

The joys of the forum. Best thread for ages for me. Brings to life issues I need to think about for the future. Things that hold little worry for seasoned pros are great food for thought for aspiring wannabees like me. I have never thought about radar and closing the shore. The single handed issue. The impact of GPS failure at a critical time.....really good stuff and best thought about first infront of a PC . Don't underestimate how useful this stuff is .... and it does end up getting put into practice in the real world

I give it a month before someone starts advising others that it's OK to have your GPS aerial indoors.

 

[zoidberg]

Not seeking to upset 'steveeasy'. Not a bit....

However....

Richard

There's only one answer to someone being a bit of a dick :

 

[Pye_End]

It may be different for others, but using the catnap technique for me leaves the body and mind feeling reasonably refreshed. However, I also noted a deterioration in decision making, as well as being a bit more 'fingers and thumbs'. After a few more days then comes disorientation and delusion. Having recognised some of these things in preparation for JAC it became obvious for the need to play it safer than when fresh.

I agree about comments re. approaching Plymouth for the first time. It looks obvious and easy on the chart, but after a long tiring trip it is a different proposition. In hindsight, Dartmouth in the light would have been a safer option, as well as dropping into a fabulous harbour.

On getting to the start line there was somebody who had been out all night against fresh wind, and that sole experience changed his mind on even getting to the start line of the challenge, and he gave up there and then. I stayed put till the following day when conditions were considerably better. Perhaps there is temptation for pushing the coastal passage harder than normal just because it will be the norm for the challenge itself?

 

[RichardS]

Not seeking to upset 'steveeasy'. Not a bit....

However....

There's only one answer to someone being a bit of a dick :

As the posters who agreed with me about the beneficial nature of all the contributions to this thread probably also suspected .... you're clearly not nearly intelligent enough to be let loose in charge of any kind of boat. :encouragement:

Richard

 

[prv]

nder.
Maybe this has been forgotten with all today's electronic aids, but the fact remains that in low viz our only source for position is GPS (and GLONASS or Galileo)

Maybe if your “we” means you and Phil, but for many of us in low vis radar provides the vital second source.

Pete

 

[LadyInBed]

Maybe if your “we” means you and Phil, but for many of us in low vis radar provides the vital second source.

Pete

I was thinking back to the time when I and many others even now don't have RADAR.
If you have it, it's certainly another invaluable​ string to your bow. I don't use mine that often these days, but in reduced Viz it's one if my primary tool's.

 

[cxz]

In response to what was said about trying to anchor to buy some time to think about what to do - I had a similar situation recently albeit in broad daylight with wind on the bow coming out of a channel. I'm rather inexperienced and had not filled up the day tank. The engine died and the narrow channel had traffic coming through. I thought to anchor and subsequently this made my problems worse since now I was in shallow depth, with the genoa out and the anchor thrown out the back. Of course the anchor line was tangled since I hadn't set it right on the pushpit and now the plotter showed a rock a few metres ahead where I grounded. Could have pulled myself off with the winch, but thought about this only afterwards. In addition, here in Sweden we use some kind of 'Ankarolina' which is like nylon webbing and I'm not sure how well these work with a winch. https://www.erlandsonsbrygga.se/Hem...arlina/Ankarolina/56M_25MM_ANKAROBOJ?id=02252

Would tacking out of the channel to windward have been annoying? Yes. Would it have saved all the grief? Yes. Maybe in some situations setting out to sea is the safer thing to do. Good job PhillM on getting home safe.

 

[Poignard]

A few years ago I left Braye, Alderney single-handed on a fine morning, heading for the Solent.

Before I reached the shipping lanes thick fog descended. I decided it would be foolhardy to try and find my way back to Braye, or to get amongst the shipping, or to go anywhere else.

I hove to, engine off and drifted for 4 or 5 hours, sitting in the cockpit smoking and drinking coffee with my lifejacket on, before the fog suddenly lifted and I had a fine sail to Cherbourg; crossing the Channel two days later.

I can't think of anything better I could have done (except look carefully at the weather forecast before setting out from Braye )

 

[capnsensible]

As the posters who agreed with me about the beneficial nature of all the contributions to this thread probably also suspected .... you're clearly not nearly intelligent enough to be let loose in charge of any kind of boat. :encouragement:

Richard

I'm not sure if you are aware but that isn't actually a picture of Zoidberg. And if it was, the creature is unlikely to understand your complaint.

Just sayin.

 

[zoidberg]

you're clearly not nearly intelligent enough to be let loose in charge of any kind of boat. :encouragement:

Well.... there, my wife and you would seem to be in agreement.


And no, it's not a pic of my wife!

 

[dom]

I'm not sure if you are aware but that isn't actually a picture of Zoidberg. And if it was, the creature is unlikely to understand your complaint.

Just sayin.

Seems like a fairly normal winch monkey to me

Most boats in the Solent have one

 

[capnsensible]

Well.... there, my wife and you would seem to be in agreement.


And no, it's not a pic of my wife!

Many tides ago, I was a watch leader on a Nicholson 55 in a Bscay storm. The favoured approach of the skipper was to declare that we should stop messing about whist reefing for the umpteenth time and that his wife was perfectly capable of doing it on her own in 30 seconds.

A rather frustrated young Surgeon Lieutenant eventually enquirered as to whether he was married to a friggin gorilla?

Led to a frostiness amongst the after guard but much hilarity on the foredeck.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Many tides ago, I was a watch leader on a Nicholson 55 in a Bscay storm. The favoured approach of the skipper was to declare that we should stop messing about whist reefing for the umpteenth time and that his wife was perfectly capable of doing it on her own in 30 seconds.

A rather frustrated young Surgeon Lieutenant eventually enquirered as to whether he was married to a friggin gorilla?

Led to a frostiness amongst the after guard but much hilarity on the foredeck.

I wonder if A1 Sailor was ever on a joint services Nic 55 in a Biscay storm.

 

[[163233]]

I am late into this thread but as I see it the fundamental problem was that at some point you lost track of your position and continued to sail unable to confirm your position.

Others seem to have interpreted it like that, but that's not how I read it. As I understand it he lost his plotter but carried on with his pilotage plan believing his position to be correct.

It actually sounds like the classic mistake of writing "sail for the red buoy and then turn right", and then failing to see the buoy.

I may have misunderstood, but it doesn't sound like an over reliance on GPS, nor really carrying on blind.

Personally, it's a timely reminder that my own pilotage planning has become a bit sloppy. He was better prepared than I have often been.

 

[zoidberg]

I've read somewhere...

"Good judgement is a by-product of bad experience."

In the spirit endorsed by PhillM, and seeking to 'squeeze all the juice' out of this tale, I'm reminded that the effects of extreme tiredness/fatigue/sleep deficit are almost exactly the same as alcohol-induced drunkenness..... the high level of toxins in the bloodstream interferes with processing, evaluation and decision-making in very similar ways.

It's difficult to determine from the account, but our principal subject PhillM reports leaving Cowes on Thursday 27 May at 0745 and proceeding non-stop to a rocky foreshore off Plymouth at around 0200 on Sunday 20 May.... as far as I can understand. That's over 60 hours, solo, with perhaps some dozing in the cockpit. I'm certain I'd be drunk with tiredness at even half that time elapsed......

Now, the RYA comes in for some stick at times, but I do know there's real value in what they teach in the way of Passage Planning - which is also now a legal obligation on ALL of us under the international SOLAS Regulations. Our friend PhillM did do a passage plan, and I believe he has himself pointed to the need to place more emphasis on certain aspects....

There's not a lot of time devoted, on RYA courses, to 'What If'ing'. There isn't a lot of time to spare. I'd like to suggest this is an area where a slightly more rigorous approach could pay off.

For example, some 'What If'ing' about delays due to tides and weather could lead to more careful scrutiny of charts and yachtmen's pilots/almanacs for places where temporary refuge could be had - and noting them in 'The Plan'. Such would have identified not just Dartmouth, but also Salcombe as a port-haven for a rest, a break, or weather shelter. Just north of the hook of Start Point is shown the symbol for two anchorages. That's a traditional spot to wait out an adverse tide, or for a suitable slant in the wind. Same thing for Starehole Bay, just outside Salcombe. Then there's the previously-mentioned and much-favoured Cawsand Bay.

It's commonplace to be thinking only in two dimensions, 'cos the sea surface is like that, and so are our charts. It takes an effort of will to build the habit of navigating in three dimensions. i.e. "What depth am I in? What depth should I be in? What does that tell me?"

There's also a fourth dimension, which is almost ignored in RYA teaching ( in my experience ) of how to proceed in reduced visibility..... and that's to proceed, if at all, at an easily-calculated sub-multiple of 6 knots, which 1/10 mile per minute. In 10 minutes, that's a mile. Should the viz reduce to 'really bad', proceed at 3 knots, if at all, which is 1/10 mile every 2 minutes.
Draw a line, as rough or as accurate as you're able, forward from your last known position-and-time along your best stab at the course you've followed, and left or right a bit for tide. A quick multiplication of the minutes elapsed will give a distance along that line - an 'estimate of position'.

Think about that position, then think whether there are any hazards likely to be close by.

If there are, STOP.

If you can't do the sums described above, then you are clearly too 'drunk with fatigue' to continue to make decisions. So STOP.

You can always STOP.

You can always turn around and go back a bit, then STOP.


Of course there's more to it. But I plan and run my pilotage using Speed/Time/Distance with quick fixes from any and all available sources - including the depth-o-meter. Just as I did when navigating HMQueen's fast jets at low level. It's the same process, but where yotties have one big advantage, which they can share with helicopters. What d'you think that is....?

 

[PhillM]

Others seem to have interpreted it like that, but that's not how I read it. As I understand it he lost his plotter but carried on with his pilotage plan believing his position to be correct.

It actually sounds like the classic mistake of writing "sail for the red buoy and then turn right", and then failing to see the buoy.

I may have misunderstood, but it doesn't sound like an over reliance on GPS, nor really carrying on blind.

Yep that sums it up well. To add, the plan was also to back this up with a visual check on the plotter. However, a) I lost visibility in the fog. I didn't even see the breakwater, let alone the red buoy that i was expecting to see after it (well not until until AFTER I hit the rocks) and B) I lost GPS/ Plotter position so my backup was gone too. Agreed, there are lessons about pilotage planning to be learned.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yep that sums it up well. To add, the plan was also to back this up with a visual check on the plotter. However, a) I lost visibility in the fog. I didn't even see the breakwater, let alone the red buoy that i was expecting to see after it (well not until until AFTER I hit the rocks) and B) I lost GPS/ Plotter position so my backup was gone too. Agreed, there are lessons about pilotage planning to be learned.

Hi Phil
I know I said I wouldn't get involved in this again but..... could you possibly if even roughly draw your track and where you lost GPS so that we can all look at it in a bit more detail.
Did you here the bell by the way?