What did PhillM do wrong?

[PhillM]

Hi Phil
I know I said I wouldn't get involved in this again but..... could you possibly if even roughly draw your track and where you lost GPS so that we can all look at it in a bit more detail.
Did you here the bell by the way?

I don't actually have the track here as it is on the boat and thats still in Plymouth (I am at home in Southampton). Basically I found the Draystone Red and confirmed that with the plotter. Then headed in but neither heard the bell nor saw the breakwater. Was thinking to myself, it should be around here and tried to zoom in on the plotter but it had lost GPS position, knocked the engine into tickover ... the rest is history!

I guess I am saying that because I lost visibility, I went for the plotter, but found my backup gone. Before I had time to respond fully, I was in trouble. I guess if I had gone astern at that point ... that is just one of the many lessons learned from this incident.

One other "little" point that arose today is that as part of the repairs, I have had the hull stripped to bare so everything can be fully inspected, as its a few years since that was done. I can report that there are several problems which have been found, which could, if left too long, or put under stress (by say a rough passage across the Irish sea, for example) have given me some very serious problems (like holes appearing below the waterline). So, out of my minor accident comes some useful insight into the hull integrity and repairs that will leave her stronger and safer. Ah the joys of wooden boat ownership

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I don't actually have the track here as it is on the boat and thats still in Plymouth (I am at home in Southampton). Basically I found the Draystone Red and confirmed that with the plotter. Then headed in but neither heard the bell nor saw the breakwater. Was thinking to myself, it should be around here and tried to zoom in on the plotter but it had lost GPS position, knocked the engine into tickover ... the rest is history!

I guess I am saying that because I lost visibility, I went for the plotter, but found my backup gone. Before I had time to respond fully, I was in trouble. I guess if I had gone astern at that point ... that is just one of the many lessons learned from this incident.

One other "little" point that arose today is that as part of the repairs, I have had the hull stripped to bare so everything can be fully inspected, as its a few years since that was done. I can report that there are several problems which have been found, which could, if left too long, or put under stress (by say a rough passage across the Irish sea, for example) have given me some very serious problems (like holes appearing below the waterline). So, out of my minor accident comes some useful insight into the hull integrity and repairs that will leave her stronger and safer. Ah the joys of wooden boat ownership

Good job you saw the Draystone or it could have been much worse you could have ended up in Fowey. You must have wisely made the decision to take the Western entrance early to be so far out and off the breakwater and not a little unlucky not to pick up one of the channel buoys because your track from then on was due North quite a way from the Breakwater and its sector light and the main channel. Still you lived to tell the tale, thank you.

 

[Wansworth]

You obviously need a BrentSwain boat!

 

[Davy_S]

Of course there's more to it. But I plan and run my pilotage using Speed/Time/Distance with quick fixes from any and all available sources - including the depth-o-meter. Just as I did when navigating HMQueen's fast jets at low level. It's the same process, but where yotties have one big advantage, which they can share with helicopters. What d'you think that is....?

They can loiter with intent!

 

[lw395]

Yep that sums it up well. To add, the plan was also to back this up with a visual check on the plotter. However, a) I lost visibility in the fog. I didn't even see the breakwater, let alone the red buoy that i was expecting to see after it (well not until until AFTER I hit the rocks) and B) I lost GPS/ Plotter position so my backup was gone too. Agreed, there are lessons about pilotage planning to be learned.

I don't really understand when it was you realised the Plotter wasn't getting a fix?
Had you logged any positions at all?
I presume the Red you were hoping to see is New Ground?
In that area, there is about a mile where the 5-6m contours run NE, so heading SE to find water should always work.
Obviously you should have rough idea of what the tide is doing, as you will be going slowly.
That should be plenty of time to fire up the backup GPS.
I wouldn't be looking to go past Melampus in fog without a working GPS. Not without radar or very good pilotage knowledge, so the object must be to anchor or kill time in safe water, or get assistance. There's no point carrying on into a more difficult situation unless you have very good reason to expect conditions to improve.

I would suspect it's a lot like Portsmouth, where a call to QHM would have told you they can see you on their radar.

I'm not sure this is about 'pilotage planning', I would not expect to have a detailed plan of how to blind nav every section.
It's about the basics of recording enough in the log to cobble together some sort of DR, then being able to look at the chart and work out survival tactics.

Do other people never 'play' at navigation using the pre-GPS tools? Compass, sounder, chart and pencil? Almanac?
Are we all so used to it just working that we don't consider it might fail?
Although it's prettyrare to find a yacht with only one working GPS on it. Even ignoring the smartphones.

All this is easier when you have crew. It's not just the sleep deprivation, it's the ability to delegate steering and keeping watch while you make a plan.

 

[steveeasy]

Phil,
It has the makings of a good book. what ever you have gained from this, by sharing the episode with all of us, I certainly will take a lot of it on board, as will others. I am looking forward to entering Plymouth now, with much interest. having said that id never want to be in your shoes that night. Clearly Plymouth is a huge expanse and I don't think this is of any real benefit when lost in FOG. In a narrow channel one might well still be able to identify Markers, but in that expanse, well I just don't know what I would have done.

Plymouth is a very different place I suspect, blanketed in FOG and certainly cant be replicated on a sunny afternoon jaunt. The fact remains I am sure at some point I will find myself in your situation, as I am sure many others have done. some strike lucky some don't. quite frankly you could have tossed a coin at some point. and it could still have gone either way.

Steveeasy.

 

[Poignard]

,,,
Do other people never 'play' at navigation using the pre-GPS tools? Compass, sounder, chart and pencil? Almanac?
....

I certainly do. In fact I not long ago bought a new hand bearing compass.

 

[jamie N]

This is my last word on this subject, Phill should be allowed to lick his wounds and digest all the information and advice he has been given and put his experience in the learned from that folder. He has been gracious and honest enough to post about his mistakes and misfortune that have given him and possibly a few other food for thought and a little advice and learning.

Quite correct and right.

 

[LadyInBed]

I don't actually have the track here as it is on the boat and thats still in Plymouth (I am at home in Southampton). Basically I found the Draystone Red and confirmed that with the plotter. Then headed in

I assume you're plan was to locate Draystone. Can you remember what course you planned / set from there?

 

[zoidberg]

FYI

 

[steveeasy]

Draystone is quite a long way out from the next marker queens ground, indeed 1.6 miles. It may well have been possible that as Draystone was passed, on a more Northerly course rather than North Easterly, you could well have been nearly 1 mile away from the breakwater lighthouse and half a mile of Queens ground marker. Hence the bell and breakwater were too far to hear or see under steam.

Its could be a very easy mistake to make, indeed if this was the case someone would only need to be off course by 20 degrees or so and no chance of identifying the sector lights. cant help but think another marker buoy would be very useful here. I suspect this is not an isolated incident. Still I appreciate I know nothing and ive never been there.

Now ive learnt something else from this. something most of you take for granted I suspect, using my compass more frequently.

Steveeasy

edit and no id not seen your post above.

 

[Tomahawk]

Radar?

The echoe of the shore line is reliable. In fact trust radar more than GPS.

 

[LadyInBed]

Radar?

The echoe of the shore line is reliable. In fact trust radar more than GPS.

Great if you have it.

 

[lw395]

Radar?

The echoe of the shore line is reliable. In fact trust radar more than GPS.

Radar is a good option, but no small racing boat is likely to carry it.
Also when radar is overlaid onto a plotter, I suspect lots of people mentally fit the radar returns to the chart rather than the other way around.
This situation is a simple depth sounder exercise. Turn right at 10m or so. Or turn left and anchor in the bay at your chosen depth.

Clearly, unless the wind direction was against it, turning left into Cawsand should be the favoured option, as following the contours into Plymouth only takes you into a more complex situation with the possibility of meeting traffic. Although anchoring between the main channel and the no-anchoring area around Drake's Island is an option. But I'd want a serious anchor light there, and call up QHM to say you're there. Workboats and fishing boats are likely to come through that area, which I assume is why Cawsand is everyone's first choice. There used to be a nice Cafe on the front too.

 

[zoidberg]

Cawsand is everyone's first choice. There used to be a nice Cafe on the front too.

There's a pub. And a shop selling oggies and other hot pies.

But neither would have been open when PhillM was passing....

 

[lw395]

There's a pub. And a shop selling oggies and other hot pies.

But neither would have been open when PhillM was passing....

But it's a nice thing to wake up to.
Coffee and a pasty before the last leg to Jannerland.

 

[zoidberg]

Creep in at dead of night, dank pea-souper, to 5 metres and put the anchor down..... and 30 metres of chain for no other reason than that it's there..... put the whistling kettle on, and fall asleep before it has boiled.

Wake up mid-morning with the sunlight streaming in. Poke head out to find oneself in a rather lovely, unexpected West Country haven with a picturesque village ( two, actually ) right in front. The engine noise from the postie's van, the milk float, the greenery....

I'd recommend to all Jesters that they aim to land up at Cawsand first-off, stop the night, and 'recharge the batteries'. first. The anchorage is free....

 

[steve yates]

One thing to be very aware of is how a mobile device locates itself. In android, google will use GPS, WiFi, mobile networks, and even bluetooth to improve location accuracy, depending on the device and how the settings for location are set, it could be that your device isn't displaying a GPS position at all, but something else triangulated from cached WiFi data or other information. Apple can be just as tricky.

In Android devices you can turn off "improve location accuracy" (on by default) which will force the device to use GPS only. It can take a bit longer to get a fix but it won't latch onto WiFi info or anything else to obtain a quick location.

There is a good write-up here ....

http://www.oceannavigator.com/July-August-2018/Voyaging-electronics/

... anyone using an off-the-shelf tablet for navigation really needs to be aware of how the device locates itself, and that it is prudent to always be suspicious of the location and if possible, double check with a second (different) GPS device or preferably something with SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation System, WAAS, EGNOS, GAGAN or MSAS) - especially when in close proximity to land where WiFi, Cellular and other info is available to the device.

Thats a good point, and this may have been covere as I've just started reading the thread, but I use a wifi only ipad, with a garmin glo dongle, so it cannot use any other means of location fixing, as it has no means of getting on a mobile network so cannot attempt to use mats etc for triangulation.

A badelf dongle would do the same thing as the garmin.

 

[lw395]

Thats a good point, and this may have been covere as I've just started reading the thread, but I use a wifi only ipad, with a garmin glo dongle, so it cannot use any other means of location fixing, as it has no means of getting on a mobile network so cannot attempt to use mats etc for triangulation.

A badelf dongle would do the same thing as the garmin.

If your ipad should happen to find its way into my wifi network, it would think its location is the same as this PC thinks. Which is 22 miles from where it really is.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

If your ipad should happen to find its way into my wifi network, it would think its location is the same as this PC thinks. Which is 22 miles from where it really is.

If you have an Android 'phone Google tracks your location and lets you see it in your 'timeline'. I daresay that some people find it intrusive, but I find it quite handy, although not good enough to prove that you sailed the correct course.... I get the feeling that it only uses the clever stuff and not the gps, and it was interesting that the other day I appear to have visited East Sussex, so I guess that someone has moved their wifi there from somewhere else. Good job I haven't got an inquisitive wife.