Weaning myself away from full long keels

[stav]

What an interesting situation and kind of demonstrates how the modern boat has brought about the demise of newer reasonably priced (not trying to be offensive here) proper boats. Those that are still around are expensive and especially for what you get. I found myself in that situation when I bought my boat. I wanted a nice buchanan or wooden Nic or S&S. One I even looked at the teak deck actually bounced up and down on its rotten ply base! The guy still wanted a huge sum of money! So I stumbled upon my Nic 36 (do not confuse with a nic 35); she needed quite a bit of work but had had a lot done (new engine, rebuilt cabin, cockpit etc). I even looked at a S&S 34 and quite liked it but found it small for a 34 footer with the engine in an awkward place. I liked the hustler 35 but a huge foresail to deal with singlehanded. As some one who has sailed long keel (my nic and previously a 9T hillyard and before that a little scampi based on a quarter tonner to ultra modern (as crew) I would say whether you are looking at a long keeler or a fin keeler there are good and bad but do not be put off by the fin keel arrangement it is good. You probably will not be able to push it shorthanded like you can a long keeler but even sailed conservatively it will put in good passage times. My wife wants us to get a more modern boat with an aft cabin etc for our girls and if I had £50000 to £75000 to spend there is some choice. But in the £30K price bracket ours is difficult to beat. So look at fin keelers but look at the whole package rig, ballast ratio, cockpit layout etc. Good luck with it as there is so much junk out there both in terms of design and build.

 

[john_morris_uk]

What an interesting situation and kind of demonstrates how the modern boat has brought about the demise of newer reasonably priced (not trying to be offensive here) proper boats. .... I would say whether you are looking at a long keeler or a fin keeler there are good and bad but do not be put off by the fin keel arrangement it is good. You probably will not be able to push it shorthanded like you can a long keeler but even sailed conservatively it will put in good passage times...

May I politely enquire what you mean by these statements? - they don't seem to make sense to me. What is a 'proper boat'?

After all the most extreme racing machines are fin keeled (usually swing keeled) and they are pushed very hard indeed by those who sail them single handed.

Unless you are sharing my frustration at the way that many of the latest production boats sail? Their tendency to broach even when sailing to windward when a gust of wind hits them, the need to constantly play the mainsheet, the amount of effort that they require to sail and their motion in a seaway. If this is what you mean then I am wholeheartedly with you. However, I am concerned that some people might think that the only way to avoid these vices is to have a long keel - and that is not true. You CAN have a fin keeled boat that sails well and tracks well and has a kindly sea motion - but it might not have the large sized cabins fore and aft that people seem to find essential in 30 foot yachts.

 

[stav]

M
Unless you are sharing my frustration at the way that many of the latest production boats sail? Their tendency to broach even when sailing to windward when a gust of wind hits them, the need to constantly play the mainsheet, the amount of effort that they require to sail and their motion in a seaway. If this is what you mean then I am wholeheartedly with you. However, I am concerned that some people might think that the only way to avoid these vices is to have a long keel - and that is not true. You CAN have a fin keeled boat that sails well and tracks well and has a kindly sea motion - but it might not have the large sized cabins fore and aft that people seem to find essential in 30 foot yachts.

Yes that is exactly what I meant, I would also say that a proper boat can also be a catamaran or super race boat. For example we where sailing in a not too serious race and light winds less than 8knts and we where struggling to keep up with a first 25.7, the wind increased to mid 20s and we caught up and left the first behind because it just kept falling over as clearly the person on the main sheet was not reading the wind and not reacting fast enough. Alright we are 36 feet but 26 on the Wl and the first 24.5WL but we have old sails and I had 3 crew 1 who had sailed 20 years ago and a chap who had chartered twice.

Also last summer when in the Swinge having arrived early we ended up with wind against tide with about 28knts of breeze see the video clip and I simply would not want to be there in a boat that relied heavily on form factor to stay up and had a ballast ratio of less than 40%: I really believe it would be dangerous. Interestingly a sadler 34 popped out of the Alderney race and headed in to Braye. Though 'she' was not to be seen just the hatch sliding rapidly shut as 'he' went ashore with rather a sour face: looking at ferry times?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PACEVbLuXnQ

I suppose this makes me a bogotted boater but I am not, really, I do respect every bodies choice, but as someone who boats on a budget (a lot less than a newish AWB) when I see so many AWB rolling out I realsie my choice of boat is constantly diminishing as I suspect BlueTwo is as well.

Might also say we where well and truely popped just after the videoing stopped; the waves where not huge but they where quite steep.

 

[jonjo]

Also last summer when in the Swinge having arrived early we ended up with wind against tide with about 28knts of breeze see the video clip and I simply would not want to be there in a boat that relied heavily on form factor to stay up and had a ballast ratio of less than 40%: I really believe it would be dangerous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PACEVbLuXnQ

If that is your definition of a demanding big sea adventure you really need to get out more! If you were to repeat that passage in a well designed boat with enough beam to stop all that rolling it would have been a stroll in the Swinge.

 

[Flapjack]

Look at something like a Bruce Roberts 34, encapsulated keel very similar to S&S 34, should be able to get a good one for between £25 -£30K. Ours is a 1973 one built like a brick outhouse, we like you had always had long keel boats and I was a bit dubious at first but very glad we made the change. She tracks really well as long as the sails are trimmed properly.

 

[BurnitBlue]

when I see so many AWB rolling out I realsie my choice of boat is constantly diminishing as I suspect BlueTwo is as well.

Exactly what I was trying to explain. For thirty years, I have been very satisfied with my long keel boats but after two years trying to find a larger example than my current folkboat (that I can afford) I face another summer in her so I switched the search to Fin keel and asked advice. I do not really want to go fin keel because I am a worrier and I am afraid that a fin keel will not impart the confidance I feel in long keel. Especially if I chose the wrong fin. The supply of affordable long keel boats is drying up. I would love a Rustler 36, or Vanvouver 34 etc but they are way out of my price range.

I very much appreciate the line of advice I did receive. Nobody tried to ram a particular design down my throat. The advice was general, and basically just pointed me in the right direction and told to enjoy the search with a pat on the bottom and a slight push.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Look at something like a Bruce Roberts 34, encapsulated keel very similar to S&S 34, should be able to get a good one for between £25 -£30K. Ours is a 1973 one built like a brick outhouse, we like you had always had long keel boats and I was a bit dubious at first but very glad we made the change. She tracks really well as long as the sails are trimmed properly.

Snap. When I wrote earlier that I had never been on a fin keel I forgot about Les Powles' Solitair who I met in the Med a few years ago. It was a Bruce Roberts 34 and looked and felt great. Three times round the world single handed two of then via the Southern Ocean is a fantastic achievement for any boat.

I chased after two of them early this year but was beaten by other buyers. I was too far away from their location to follow up answers to quick questions. The broker used weasle words in the description like "Professionally finished", which implied to my suspicious mind that she was garden built but professionally finished. By the time I cleared that up by email the boat was sold. The second was a similar broker description who simply did not have a clue about the boat he was selling. It took three weeks for the broker to discover that the boat was home built and had foam core below the waterline. The broker still had no idea about how the keel was attached. The boat was reduced to half-price and was sold in a few days.

My delay was really caused by my lack of committment to fin keel and I was treading too cautiously.

 

[Robin]

Exactly what I was trying to explain. For thirty years, I have been very satisfied with my long keel boats but after two years trying to find a larger example than my current folkboat (that I can afford) I face another summer in her so I switched the search to Fin keel and asked advice. I do not really want to go fin keel because I am a worrier and I am afraid that a fin keel will not impart the confidance I feel in long keel. Especially if I chose the wrong fin. The supply of affordable long keel boats is drying up. I would love a Rustler 36, or Vanvouver 34 etc but they are way out of my price range.

I very much appreciate the line of advice I did receive. Nobody tried to ram a particular design down my throat. The advice was general, and basically just pointed me in the right direction and told to enjoy the search with a pat on the bottom and a slight push.

One to seriously consider then and in you price range is the Westerly Discus 33. This is a Laurent Giles design, same hull as the Westerly 33 centre cockpit but the Discus has an aft cockpit and owners cabin under a raised bridgedeck. The W33 was available mostly as a ketch but a few were sloops and there was a choice of long fin or bilge keels. These are serious passagemakers, many RTWs recorded and one from Weymouth took a trainee crew round Cape Horn. We owned a W33 Ketch for 14 years and some 25,000 miles two up.


One here seems cheap.http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/boat_view.php?boat_id=65

 

[Blueboatman]

You say you would love an R36 or a V34. My advice is wait a bit longer and then buy the one you want. I did, having started looking at Co32s and UFOs, Shes etc, even the odd old Swan (!), but not very seriously.. But I am quite happy renovating an older boat and have pretty much the skills and experience to do it. For what it is worth I bought for your budget but obviously had a healthy refit sum put to one side as well. It 'can' be a very effective way of getting what you want affordably if you have the time and inclination to refit and upgrade prograssively, but at least you will be doing so on the hull that you really wanted all along!

My point really is-don't buy the wrong boat just 'cos you are getting impatient-it is expensive and there would always be that nagging at the back of your mind..

By the way my last boat was a fin and spade wizzy 28 ft cruiser/ racer. It was fine-once I had moved the rudder, added stringers, added 2 feet to the aft end and rerigged and got decent sails, but I have spent all of my sailing life on longkeelers really. It was just that bit quicker in under 10 knot breezes and close quarter manoeuvres, but, shallow bilge, sailing on top of rather than through the water, bouncy,ugly high freeboard etc etc.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Rival Owners Club - Boats For Sale

I would recommend a Rival. Many of the hulls were laid up under Lloyds Supervision to the standards of the day. This can give you some assurance that at least the lay up quality was controlled at the time. Look for a hull number usually bonded on the stern, small size.

Some very good prices and well sorted boats, a few excessive prices, based on the reputation. Tend to be owned for along time by sailors who wanted a yacht with pedigree. They dont suit today's mass market by far, hence a lot of boat for the money (the lower cost ones). Negotiation is a must as modern buyers can get a decent fin keel for some of these prices, complete with aft cabin and shower!

Tuff boats, good sailors, usually good hulls, easy to maintain and many have been refitted now. Worth a serious consideration.

http://www.rivalowners.org.uk/noticeboard/forsale/forsale.htm

p.s. Cherry Ripe looks interesting and has been on sale for a while. I have noticed this a lot with Rivals. They tend to hang around the brokers pages for quite a while, always increases potential for negotiation. I dont know the boat and have no interest in her. Tenacity II, good price, plenty of new stuff and equipment.

 

[alisdair4]

I can vouch for the tracking on my R32 - although they're definitely not easy to park in reverse!

 

[KellysEye]

>>The trouble is that I have realised that I know nothing about them except that the keel can fall off, the bolts need replacing at intervals, they do not track well, they need strengthening around the bilge the keels rust away, the join between hull and keel can open up or get squashed. Gee whiz, after writing that lot down I may keep looking for long keel. Just joking.


>Do you really believe that tripe or is it intended as a troll? Surely no-one can really be that narrow minded.

He said 'can' not always do. He was right those things can and do happen. Not sure about strengthening around the bilge though.

 

[Tranona]

He said 'can' not always do. He was right those things can and do happen. Not sure about strengthening around the bilge though.

In just the same way that long keels CAN leak - for example on wooden boats when water gets in the joint and corrodes the keel bolts, or the grp gets punctured on an encapsulated keel and if the ballast is iron causes rust.

It is important to consider what DOES happen - and tens of thousands of fin keel boats never have any of the problems mentioned - but a few do.

This thread has three strands, it seems to me. The first is this issue of structural integrity of different designs and construction methods. The second is the functional characteristics (handling, comfort, and facilities) of different designs. Thirdly the suitability of a design for the intended usage.

If one is choosing a boat for functional use then it is sutability for the primary use that is the key criterion - not the shape of the hull or type of keel - but will it do the job. If, on the other hand one is choosing a boat based on the perception of what it is rather than what it can do, there may well be a mismatch. Why should one buy a boat that can withstand any kind of weather when one is never likely to go anywhere near bad weather - or have a boat with twin aft cabins and huge cockpit if you sail mostly on your own in a cold wet climate.

As I suggested earlier, a boat for drifting around the Med has a very different functional requirement from for example sailing the Western Isles. Compromises have to be made, whatever you buy, particularly if you only have about 25% of the funds required to build your "ideal" boat, as you can only choose from other peoples' cast offs and accept their compromises. However, there are more than enough different designs of boat available to find a close fit to your requirements. The difficulty comes when you set specific constraints which narrow that choice.

So a long keeler, 34 foot, reasonably recent with good accommodation, up to date equipment in ready to go condition for serious voyaging - for £40k - simply does not exist. Something has to give, otherwise you end up boatless - which of course may be the objective. "Don't have a boat because nothing meets my requirements" is an underlying theme of threads such as this!

 

[yoda]

How about an excalibur, slightly older but a good boat. Link to an example below:

http://www.westcoastyachting.co.uk/brokerage/spingo/index.html

Yoda

 

[Haven't-a-Clue]

How about an excalibur, slightly older but a good boat. Link to an example below:

http://www.westcoastyachting.co.uk/brokerage/spingo/index.html

Yoda

I have to say that to my (untrained) eye that is a beautiful boat.

 

[KellysEye]

>If one is choosing a boat for functional use then it is sutability for the primary use that is the key criterion

I entirely agree, that's one of the most sensible statements I've read. We wanted to go ocean sailing so we bought an appropriate boat. Others don't want to do that and they buy a different type of boat. Nothing wrong in either case.

 

[TradewindSailor]

There seems to be some misconceptions about keel construction:-

Integral keel is one where there is a structural GRP keel moulding with internal ballast. The ballast is usually lead pigs that are usually encapsulated in resin, but some boats have been ballasted with iron.

Encapsulated keel tends to mean an integral keel ....... but some may only be GRP sheathed, with the ballast bolted onto say a grp stub keel and then glassed over to avoid having a potential leak around the keel bolts.


By the way ..... I found these photos of a yacht that lost it's cast keel :-
http://www.cliffisland.com/boat.html. The boat actually survived to sail another day. I don't know whether they ever found the keel.