Weaning myself away from full long keels

[BurnitBlue]

Best of luck - keep us informed as to how you get on.
PS
I see I need not mention the Marieholm 32.

I will cetainly repay the advice and keep the forum in the loop.

The Swedish Marieholm 32 is designed for the Baltic, has the prop aft of the rudder, and is 25% lighter in weight, and has an awful deck, reminds me of a skate board jumping ramp. The export version is supposedly better but I have never seen one.

 

[BurnitBlue]

1981 example here for £45k new Yanma 2008, but oh teak decks.

http://www.yachtworld.com/privatela...&checked_boats=2122735&lang=en&slim=pp252569&

Hang on a minute. I dont have £45,000. My limit is £40,000 assuming I will have to account for uppgrades and the inevitable repairs.

I was always told that I should never enter a negotiation unless I could at least match the asking price. I could then negotiate from a position of strength. Its supposed to be a confidance thing. The worse thing is for the broker or owner to look down his nose at the poor trailer trash that has the nerve to invade the realms of the high and mighty.

I can understand that view, Consider that if I had £100,000 to spend and offered £40,000 then that would earn respect. If I admitted that I only had £40,000 then I would be treated with scorn. "get back in your box, peasant".

 

[flaming]

Hang on a minute. I dont have £45,000. My limit is £40,000 assuming I will have to account for uppgrades and the inevitable repairs.

I was always told that I should never enter a negotiation unless I could at least match the asking price. I could then negotiate from a position of strength. Its supposed to be a confidance thing. The worse thing is for the broker or owner to look down his nose at the poor trailer trash that has the nerve to invade the realms of the high and mighty.

I can understand that view, Consider that if I had £100,000 to spend and offered £40,000 then that would earn respect. If I admitted that I only had £40,000 then I would be treated with scorn. "get back in your box, peasant".

That makes no sense. A boat (or anything else for that matter) is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.
As a potential purchaser you set the price that you are prepared to pay. Your reasons for setting that price are no business of the seller, why on earth would you tell them that you only had £40k?
If they won't sell for £40k, then what have you lost? Nothing, you don't have to up the offer until they sell. You can just make a take it or leave it offer. Remember, you are doing them a favour by putting a value to something they no longer want.

 

[Robin]

All my info about fin keels is second hand usually from this forum. I have absolutely no first hand experience of fin keels.

I have owned five yachts in my life all long full keels.

In fact I am mostly a two boat man having also owned an International Folkboat for pottering around for the last 20 years.

It may be tripe to you, but for me it is received info and there are examples of every claim right here on this Forum.

Many many years ago some friends had a grp Folkboat but wanted something bigger to go for an extended cruise on, but was still affordable. I took them out on my then Elzabethan 30, fin and skeg to show them what to expect. He said 'it won't track', I said let go of the tiller, he did and she went straight on. He said that was going upwind, so I said try it downwind, she still went straight, hands off the tiller. What he could not get was going upwind, I kept saying point up, you are too far off... Anyway they bought one and sailed the Med then the Atlantic. There is a moral here somewhere!

Some of the stories on here are put out to frighten the faithful out of straying where the grass is really greener.

 

[jonjo]

I was always told that I should never enter a negotiation unless I could at least match the asking price.

Take pity on the yacht owner who places his boat with a broker saying "I was thinking of advertising at £90k but might take £85k after 4 months". So the broker says "right we'll list her at £100k for 6 weeks and then adjust from there".

You seem to be creating unnecessary hurdles in this yacht search.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Hang on a minute. I dont have £45,000. My limit is £40,000 assuming I will have to account for uppgrades and the inevitable repairs.

I was always told that I should never enter a negotiation unless I could at least match the asking price. I could then negotiate from a position of strength. Its supposed to be a confidance thing. The worse thing is for the broker or owner to look down his nose at the poor trailer trash that has the nerve to invade the realms of the high and mighty.

I can understand that view, Consider that if I had £100,000 to spend and offered £40,000 then that would earn respect. If I admitted that I only had £40,000 then I would be treated with scorn. "get back in your box, peasant".

This makes no sense (and you might like to reconsider your earlier post as well?)

Firstly, there is no harm at all in looking at boats up to £45k or more - some people fly very high kites when it comes to the value of their 'pride and joy'. Circumstances change and people take low offers sometimes. Presumably you are never going to actually admit how much cash you have? So long as you make offers within your budget, you can look at anything within reason. If the boat is on for £50k who says you aren't going to buy it for £37 k or whatever?

(Our boat was on the market for perhaps £20k more than we actually bought her for in the end)

Secondly, who says fin keeled boats don't track and their keels fall off. There are lots of fin keeled boars that track very well and contrary to what you read on here, 99.9% of keels stay put. I was more worried about the keel on my Camper and Nicholson built SCOD than I am with the fin keel on my Westerly. Fin keeled boats quite often sail better then their long keeled sisters and they are often easier to reverse under power. Choose carefully - there are radical fin keels and long fin keels and moderate fin keels.

Our boat has a long fin and tracks very well indeed. I have sailed long keeled boats and fin keeled boats and for what its worth I think your fear of fin keels is unfounded.

 

[BrianH]

I was always told that I should never enter a negotiation unless I could at least match the asking price. I could then negotiate from a position of strength. Its supposed to be a confidance thing. The worse thing is for the broker or owner to look down his nose at the poor trailer trash that has the nerve to invade the realms of the high and mighty.
I can understand that view, Consider that if I had £100,000 to spend and offered £40,000 then that would earn respect. If I admitted that I only had £40,000 then I would be treated with scorn. "get back in your box, peasant".

This is way, weirdly way, wide of the mark. The broker or owner should never know your potential resources or how much you could, or are prepared, to spend on their boat or any other.
£40K is not an impossible way away from an asking price of £45K and even if they think an offer could be improved there is no sure way to know it may be. Nothing wrong with a low offer and a 'take it or leave it' attitude - it's a valid negotiating strategy whatever your resources are and certainly not one of a "peasant". Quite the reverse, I would say, it is often the modus operandi of the seriously rich.

It is very much a buyer's market and some boats change hands for well under their asking price. With the conditional 'subject to survey' clause in the offer you may well get an even greater reduction for putting things to rights, if your offer is ever accepted.

 

[BurnitBlue]

This makes no sense (and you might like to reconsider your earlier post as well?)

I would like to repeat that I have no personal practical experience of fin keeled boats. None at all. Is there any way that I can convince you that I have never even sailed on a fin keeled boat? Any opinion I have is second hand mostly from this forum. Search the forum and read about the Bavaria, Drum, Bullingars (?) and that South african boat last year that was found inverted with no keel.

Out on the cruising circuit when sitting as a visitor for sundowners on other peoples boat, the topic has never come up that I can recall. Any opinion I have about fin keeled boats comes mostly from this forum.

I only brought up the £40,000 pound limit because I had already mentioned it before jonjo5 pointed me to a £45,000 S&S She 36, and I was attempting to explain to him (kindly) why I appreciate the link, but it was out of my price range. I have a fine regard for peoples feelings and would not insult a seller with a silly offer. If I didn't like the boat for the asking price I would tell him and offer what I thought it was worth. I repeat though that I would never enter negotiation for a boat that was above my limit. I am not a haggler from a market bazaar. Now slam me for that.

Up to now I have advice to investigate the Rival range, Nich 35, Super Soveriegn, She 36, Sigma 36.2, Contessa 32, Sadler 34.

Anyway, I have decided to search for an encapsulated long fin with full skeg rudder as a first stepping stone away from long-keel. So thanks everyone. I am off to Yachtworld.com.

Edit: John Morris, just read what I wrote and I am not ranting at you in particular. This is a general post.

 

[Tranona]

A Nich 35 has been suggested and this is definitely on my list. There are two examples in the UK. One at Foxes in Essex which has a teak deck which advice on this forum is of the nature "run not walk away". The other is Kings Eastern Brokarage for an example in Scotland. This boat looks attractive on paper but it has been in and out of "sale pending" at least three times in the past year so there must be issues with her.

When I first started the search for a "new" boat it was exciting, but right now it is getting to be a bit of a chore and I am in danger of accepting anything just to end the search and get it over with. This is what made me ask the forum for help.

I must extend the search to fin keel but with experienced opinion to guide me.

It might be useful to know what you want to do with the boat, where you want to sail, where you want to buy and what your expectations are about accommodation equipment etc.

For example if you are blue water or high latitudes sailing then your requirements will be very different from what you would need for pottering around the Med. As you have probably found there are few long keel boats in the Med, and virtually none have been built in any volume for over 20 years. Even fin and skeg which ruled for about 20 years has now mostly gone out of fashion.

Whatever the prejudices you have picked up second hand, the reality is that fin keeled boats are now almost universal and owners are presumably happy. Like you I am a 2 boat person - a long keeled 60s design and a newish Bavaria. Chalk and cheese - but each perfectly suited to their purpose - the long keeler for bashing around the south coast single handed and the Bavaria for Med cruising. The latter is not comfortable in heavier winds and bangs about a bit, but great for off wind sailing and living in hot climates. The former, cramped, ponderous, steady as a rock but would be hopeless to live on in the Med.

Suggest you take your blinkers off, draw up a list of key criteria and then match that against what is on the market in your size/price range. As already mentioned by others, your budget is unlikely to get you a boat less than 15 years old, so condition and equipment may be the deciding factor rather than the specific design.

 

[jonjo]

I am not a haggler from a market bazaar. Now slam me for that.

I bet Drake and Nelson were when taking on fresh supplies.

 

[Angele]

I bet Drake and Nelson were when taking on fresh supplies.

... but they weren't looking to buy a fin keeler.

 

[Tranona]

I would like to repeat that I have no personal practical experience of fin keeled boats. None at all. Is there any way that I can convince you that I have never even sailed on a fin keeled boat? Any opinion I have is second hand mostly from this forum. Search the forum and read about the Bavaria, Drum, Bullingars (?) and that South african boat last year that was found inverted with no keel.

These examples are a million miles away from the average production cruising boats. Just look round any boatyard at layup time are you will see plenty of fin keeled boats with their keels firmly attached. The fear of them coming off is at the same irational level of thinking that thw wings will come off an airliner!

There are, off course downsides to such keels - the more extreme shapes are prone to stalling at low speed, they often have greater draft than long keels on a similar size boat and they are not particularly good if you make a habit of hitting rocks. Most boats now have spade rudders, which look vulnerable but in reality are mostly very strong. The requirements of the RCD has resulted in much better designs of such structures, and there are many problems with earlier designs such as skegs delaminating, water getting into rudders and encapsulated keels etc which have been largely elimnated by good design.

 

[BurnitBlue]

It might be useful to know what you want to do with the boat, where you want to sail,

Good post Tranona. I have never bought a boat for a specific purpose except I draw the line at a pure racing yacht. I do race but as crew in other peoples boats. I could never afford to keep up, however being a long keeled boat owner I cannot say that I have ever faced such a decision

My opinion is that a boat should be capable of going anywhere I point her. It is certainly a compromise so I would accept reduced performance while pottering around the Med in exchange for the ability to head for the Southern Ocean should I lose control of my mind in the future.

Some boats are so flimsy with such a poor reputation I would not consider owning one. To me, owning a boat is a passport to total freedom. That means that it is I (myself) who decides where and when I sail to somewhere, not a designer or builder.

To put it in a nutshell owning a flimsy (built for purpose boat no names) would be like riding a moped that is not allowed on the motorway.

Even my folkboat is good for any weather (within reason). A grandmother sailed one single handed from LA to Japan recently. However I now demand more room below. I am fed up with backing out of the saloon so I can turn round like a big dog in a small kennel.

You are right, the days of the long keeled yacht are gone. I have almost given up looking for a good affordable example. Thats why I am moving on to fin keel if I can bring myself up to speed on the information necessary to avoid a massive blunder borne out of my ignorance of the type.

These are my opinions only. They are not set in stone.

 

[jonjo]

Out on the cruising circuit when sitting as a visitor for sundowners on other peoples boat, the topic has never come up that I can recall. Any opinion I have about fin keeled boats comes mostly from this forum.

We frequent a strange parallel yachting universe here at ybw.com

In the real world I have perfectly civil conversations with Westerly owners, well apart from one but we made up the following morning.

 

[Tranona]

Good post Tranona. I have never bought a boat for a specific purpose except I draw the line at a pure racing yacht. I do race but as crew in other peoples boats. I could never afford to keep up, however being a long keeled boat owner I cannot say that I have ever faced such a decision

My opinion is that a boat should be capable of going anywhere I point her. It is certainly a compromise so I would accept reduced performance while pottering around the Med in exchange for the ability to head for the Southern Ocean should I lose control of my mind in the future.

Some boats are so flimsy with such a poor reputation I would not consider owning one. To me, owning a boat is a passport to total freedom. That means that it is I (myself) who decides where and when I sail to somewhere, not a designer or builder.

To put it in a nutshell owning a flimsy (built for purpose boat no names) would be like riding a moped that is not allowed on the motorway.

Even my folkboat is good for any weather (within reason). A grandmother sailed one single handed from LA to Japan recently. However I now demand more room below. I am fed up with backing out of the saloon so I can turn round like a big dog in a small kennel.

You are right, the days of the long keeled yacht are gone. I have almost given up looking for a good affordable example. Thats why I am moving on to fin keel if I can bring myself up to speed on the information necessary to avoid a massive blunder borne out of my ignorance of the type.

These are my opinions only. They are not set in stone.

I can see where you are coming from - but nothing will ever fulfil all your requirements! If you are looking for a boat that will do that you are destined never to have a boat!

You can walk around the marinas on the south coast and see many boats that could take on anything - but never get further than the Needles! As I tried to point out, it is useful to determine exactly what the majority usage of the boat will be. Then look around at what other people use for the job. It may surprise you, for example that boats which I suspect you would put in the "flimsy" category have carried their crews safely all over the world. Look at the entrants for the last ARC. Well over one third were off the shelf modern production boats. Charter companies that get more use out of a boat in a year than many private owners get in a lifetime use mass produced boats without complaint.

I think one of the problems you (and many others) face is that your budget is not huge, but there is a vast range of boats to choose from, none of which really meets your requirements completely, or if it does, is not for dsale because the present owner can't find anything better. So you are back to the old word of compromise. Establish what is really important to you in terms of TANGIBLE criteria rather than a vague sort of concept of what you want.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

All my info about fin keels is second hand usually from this forum. I have absolutely no first hand experience of fin keels..

Well, since you are being serious, lets try to be helpful. Sorry if my first reply wasnt but I really didnt think you were for real.

"that the keel can fall off" - true it is possible to have structural failure in any boat but a keel falling off is extremely infrequent even amongst Bavaria yachts. I'd put it somewhere about as likely as a lightning strike or all 4 wheels falling off your car. After all they are bolted on too.

"the bolts need replacing at intervals" - why? Unless you allow corrosion to happen, and bolts to sit in bilge water, there is little reason for ever replacing keel bolts. I've never done it nor do I know anyone who has. That really goes back to the old days of wooden boats with long keels when the bolts used to sit in wet wood and bilge water.

"they do not track well" - the longer the keel, the better the tracking, the poorer the manoeuverability and the less the pointing ability. This is the one area where you would have to get used to the change and in almost all situations it would make your life easier, particularly in port.

"they need strengthening around the bilge the keels rust away" - your family would have to have a typical Westerly for several generations before the keel rusted away and of course many boats have lead keels which cant rust or encapsulated keels. Not that I would recommend encapsulated - I would rather see the rust than have it hidden. And as for "strengthening" - please believe that all the fin keel owners arent having to do extra strengthening operations on their boats

"the join between hull and keel can open up or get squashed" - again we are back to structural issues. I have seen a couple of bilge keels re-bedded in our club. The early ones didnt take too well to repeated groundings in mud but that is a problem that has now gone away. As for fin keelers, all I ever see is an occasional weep from the join and which needs sealing after lift out. Trivial.

Incidentally, the one boat that I have seen at sea having keel problems was a long keeler who had grounded a bit heavily in Watermouth, eroded the grp over the keel and was steaming towards Swansea baling like fury. He made it - just

Taking your comments at face value, you are getting the issues you mention out of proportion. That they have happened cannot be denied - the issue is how likely and how often. There never has been and never will be the perfect boat - fin keels will have their disadvantages compared to a long keel but they also have their advantages. The fact that most boats are now fin keels suggest that the advantages are bigger than the disadvantages

 

[jonjo]

Excellent synopsis BosunH.

For the OP I would add that I understand his logic in favouring a Nich 35 S shape underwater profile in the expectation this will offer the closest handling characteristics as currently experienced with his long keeler. However such designs are not inherently superior to fin and spade in all respects. For example Nicholson got the rudder size wrong in the earlier Nich 35 production run and had to introduce a larger rudder.

Then as long-fin & skeg evolved some designers got the vestigial skeg design wrong to the point it became a structural liability. At this stage from a robustness point of view, a spade rudder is structurally superior.

My final point is that deep fin and spade designs have evolved. Look at a mid 1990's 36' HR or Malo and it is evident that the metal keel is bolted onto a grp keel that is a stub of the main hull moulding i.e. similar in profile to encapsulated. Some internet research of Co32's will highlight structural problems that can arise with an encapsulated keel. I would much prefer something closer to the external bolted HR or Malo mentioned above.

In summary I think the OP just needs to get out there, sign up for a few delivery crewing positions and get a feel for how modern designs behave in a seaway. I suspect the fears and mystique of sailing without a long keel will melt away.

 

[Salty John]

I think the OP has a healthy regard for the integrity of full keels with encapsulated lead ballast and this regard is not misplaced.
When bolted-on fin keels started to replace encapsulated lead keels on production boats the motivation was cost saving. The justification was that racing boats used these bolted on appendages and what worked for racing boats was, of course, good for cruising boats. I have no problem with that evolution because it led to lower cost boats for all.
The reduction in production cost of boats made possible by such manufacturing innovations made them available to a vastly greater section of the public, inspired to go sailing by the antics of Knox-Johnson, Moitessier, the Pardeys and other adventurers. Nothing wrong with that.
I have had several boats. The only one with which I have ever had structural problems was a 32' Jeanneau. It had a bolted on deep fin keel and sailed like a witch. Unfortunately I was using it for cruising and when she grounded on Galveston Bay the keel was punched through the bottom of the boat. Cruise over.
So, whilst modern boats, Bens, Jenny's, Bavs et al, have been responsible for the widespread availability of relatively low cost production boats that take so many of us to sea these days, don't delude yourself that this has not been without some sacrifices. Modern boats are great in their voluminous interiors, high standard of interior finish, aft cabins and the rest that have lured our better halves to enjoy the sailing experience with us, but they have given up something in the way of mechanical integrity.
I offer this in the interests of balance. The OP made a first move towards the consideration of alternative designs and, whilst some people offered support for his musings, a bunch of other people jumped down his throat and that's not what this forum should be doing.

 

[jonjo]

The OP made a first move towards the consideration of alternative designs and, whilst some people offered support for his musings, a bunch of other people jumped down his throat

Not I. It was obvious to me that the OP was using self mocking humour when describing his fears about modern designs.

Think you missed my point about fin and spade designs. There is much variation within the category, at the heavier end they can be seen as a small evolutionary step from S-shaped long fin and skeg.

Re. your keel failure. That is odd, the more typical failure is a downward tearing action and sometimes a reciprocal punch up of the aft end of the keel. Was the 32' Jeanneau an earlier fin and spade design with transverse floors laminated to the hull or was the keel support provided by a separate floor tray moulding?

 

[john_morris_uk]

I would like to repeat that I have no personal practical experience of fin keeled boats. None at all. Is there any way that I can convince you that I have never even sailed on a fin keeled boat? Any opinion I have is second hand mostly from this forum. Search the forum and read about the Bavaria, Drum, Bullingars (?) and that South african boat last year that was found inverted with no keel.

Out on the cruising circuit when sitting as a visitor for sundowners on other peoples boat, the topic has never come up that I can recall. Any opinion I have about fin keeled boats comes mostly from this forum.

I only brought up the £40,000 pound limit because I had already mentioned it before jonjo5 pointed me to a £45,000 S&S She 36, and I was attempting to explain to him (kindly) why I appreciate the link, but it was out of my price range. I have a fine regard for peoples feelings and would not insult a seller with a silly offer. If I didn't like the boat for the asking price I would tell him and offer what I thought it was worth. I repeat though that I would never enter negotiation for a boat that was above my limit. I am not a haggler from a market bazaar. Now slam me for that.

Up to now I have advice to investigate the Rival range, Nich 35, Super Soveriegn, She 36, Sigma 36.2, Contessa 32, Sadler 34.

Anyway, I have decided to search for an encapsulated long fin with full skeg rudder as a first stepping stone away from long-keel. So thanks everyone. I am off to Yachtworld.com.

Edit: John Morris, just read what I wrote and I am not ranting at you in particular. This is a general post.

You don't have to convince me - you already have. But what do I have to say to convince you that just because you can find examples of poorly constructed fin keeled boats, and you can hear stories about how they don't track well and their fins fall off, these statements are not true for lots and lots of fin keeled boats? As many others have agreed with me in their posts, there are fin keeled boats that track well, and sail well and are heavily built - you just need to look carefully at what you are buying.

Personally, when I sold our long keeled boat and bought the fin keeled Sigma 33, the resulting sailing was a wonder and a joy. Sigma's are cruiser racers, but they are not radical designs and track very nicely thank you. They also sail VERY nicely, so long as you don't sail it as if it is a racing machine with only the family on board. I am not suggesting you go and buy a Sigma 33 - I think it would be the wrong boat for you from what you have said, but I am trying to illustrate how the sailing experience can be very good on a boat without a long keel.

Regarding your attitude to pricing, if you feel so strongly about (what is to me a strange notion) of 'insulting someone with a silly offer' then why don't you get someone else to do the bargaining for you? There are agents who will buy your boat for you - and you might save a lot of money. Bartering is as much a part of the wealthy world as it is a part of the poor. I am not slamming you - just trying to suggest a way in which you might either save yourself some money - or get a better boat then you thought you could. I repeat that some people price their boats in a 'try it and see' way - and are very happy to take a substantially lower figure - you've only got to ask.