Water in engine

[noelex]

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

You have been given some good advice, but I do wonder about about your diagnosis. I have had an engine that got water in fom an internally corroded exaust elbow. It gave no indications of any problems untill I checked the oil on shut down. There are other
Possibilities such as a blown head gasket, or stuck anti-siphon valve. These would all be much more common than filling the oil with water.
It does make a difference, obviosly the cause will need to fixedas well as getting the water out oil if it's not incorrect servicing.

 

[Heckler]

The oil and water have emulsified - no free water to taste.

I have taken a tape to the oil level dipper - it's ten inches above the bottom of the dipstick. I'll have to remove the oil /water mix before I can remove the filter (I suppose?).
Trying to source suitable containers to collect the mix at the moment.

In the meantime I'm pumping out as per #14 on Vic's diagram

If its emulsion then the engine has been running to emulsify it, in which case I dont think your yard has put anything in. taste the emulsion, if it is salt water you will be able to tell, if it is salt water then it will have got to the bearings and will have etched them, I dont think insurance will pay out for water leaks! However it will probably still be salveagable, do as I said and get the oil out, change filter, fill with cheap oil, whether flushing or not, run it til its hot and then change oil and filter again and run it till its very hot, in gear to provide a load. This is to boil any water out of nooks and cranys Then check oil after it has cooled to see if water is still getting in.
Report back
Stu
Stu

 

[VicS]

The oil and water have emulsified - no free water to taste.

I have taken a tape to the oil level dipper - it's ten inches above the bottom of the dipstick. I'll have to remove the oil /water mix before I can remove the filter (I suppose?).
Trying to source suitable containers to collect the mix at the moment.

In the meantime I'm pumping out as per #14 on Vic's diagram

Very surprised with that much water it is totally emusified or at least is not slowly separting to some extent but then my experience is with oils that are designed not to form stable emulsions.

Try gently shaking some with some fresh water and allowing that to separate. Taste the water that separates.

 

[Rhapsode]

I got as far as draining out the old oil, changing the filter and putting in more oil. The marina is going to carry on the work tomorrow. Couldn't perduade the engine to start - but it did turn over. Checked the fuel at the injectors - OK.

Marina convinced it is SW not one of their people. I could have been a bit hasty in my diagnosis. With the SW cock turned off and having a high anti-syphoning bend it never occurred to me that it could be sea water. Time will tell.

It's been a stressful day but I will get back to you all to let you know what happens.

Many thanks for your fantastic support.

 

[penfold]

If there was 6" of water on the dipstick then there must be 10-12" of water in the sump, there is no chance it will all be emulsified. If the crank has been marinading in SW for up to 3 months it may be scrap, if fresh you might get lucky and get away with a polish. If someone ran it with the sump full of water it would run the bearings in short order, assuming they could persuade it to start at all as the crankcase would be full of displaced oil. How much water came out when you drained it? All very strange, I'm not clear how SW would syphon back in to the sump but not continue out through the crankcase breather or intake and fill the bilge.

 

[vyv_cox]

There may be a link between the failure to start and the seawater in the sump. When engines are cranked for a long time with the engine seacock open it is likely that the exhaust hose will fill with seawater. Dependent upon the layout of the silencer or swanneck before the exhaust outlet, it is possible for water to enter the engine via the exhaust valves. It may be that the efforts to carry out the original repair have led to another fault that is preventing the engine from starting. Prolonged cranking may then have taken place.

 

[b4bu]

If your engine does not start - that is when you eventually try to start it - it would probably be due to lack of compression.

I had a relating problem earlier this summer; my diesel engine was accidently sprayed in (salt) cooling water, while running, for about an hour. It was thoroughly rinsed in freshwater and dried but did not start after this. Turned out to be loss of compression, most probably due to corrosion and/or salt in the valves and/or piston rings.

Got it running by pouring oil into the sylinders through the air intake and cranking the engine by hand with the valves open. When we shut the valves it started. The leak was almost certainly a piston ring that was stuck. The oil sealed the small leak, the engine started and the ring loosened. That's the theory anyway. The engine seems fine now.

 

[eagleswing]

more on emulsification

check this thread from a volvo repair guy: http://www.watercraftservices.com/manifolds.htm

it suggests that emulsification can occur in the engine if there is high water in the bilge which gets past the engine sump and oil seals and gets sucked into the cylinders...

if the source is bilge sea water, your h 2 0/oil mix should be salty...??

re: the marina accidentally adding cooling h 2 0 to the oil fill cap: this seems unlikely to me . is this a 'fresh water cooled ' engine ie one which uses antifreeze? does the emulsified oil have antifreeze in it, or water ? did the marina ever 'top up' the heat exchanger/coolant system? seems unlikely they'd do that for free and without billling you if they were hired to only replace a solenoid..

 

[VicS]

check this thread from a volvo repair guy: http://www.watercraftservices.com/manifolds.htm

it suggests that emulsification can occur in the engine if there is high water in the bilge which gets past the engine sump and oil seals and gets sucked into the cylinders...

if the source is bilge sea water, your h 2 0/oil mix should be salty...??

re: the marina accidentally adding cooling h 2 0 to the oil fill cap: this seems unlikely to me . is this a 'fresh water cooled ' engine ie one which uses antifreeze? does the emulsified oil have antifreeze in it, or water ? did the marina ever 'top up' the heat exchanger/coolant system? seems unlikely they'd do that for free and without billling you if they were hired to only replace a solenoid..

I agree its more likely that seawater has got in and to cause the emulsion the engine must have been run with the water present

But how on earth would you tell if the oil has antifreeze in it

 

[masterofnone]

Engine full of water

I have had this happen twice now. Reverse siphon via the anti siphon valve filled the engine up so much when i pulled the oil dipstick out to check level water came out. Flush out engine , replace filters, you will be very lucky if the fuel injection pump doesn't require a recon, mine did. Have now changed from vetus anti siphon to the vetus one with a telltale pipe. have not had any probs since.

 

[Rhapsode]

The latest from the marina is that they after I left yesterday morning they (the marina owner and the local Volvo Penta man) flushed oil through the system again, did another check of the diesel getting to the injectors and then managed to start and run the engine for one and half hours. After that they checked the oil level again and found no alteration in the level and no more water.

Their thoughts now are to leave the engine for a week and then go back and see what they find.

I did get to taste the water late in the day on Thursday. I have to say I'm not sure - there was a slight taste of salt but it was a hot and sweaty day in Salvador and I'm not sure whether it was my sweaty finger I tasted or salt water. It certainly wasn't a strong salty taste but after being mixed with 10 litres of oil I suppose it wouldn't be, would it??

Will update again when I get more news.

 

[nigelmercier]

But how on earth would you tell if the oil has antifreeze in it

Put some in the freezer?

 

[penfold]

Put some in the freezer?

You joke, but that's a reasonable thing to try if you can't afford a lab analysis of the sump contents.

 

[penfold]

I did get to taste the water late in the day on Thursday. I have to say I'm not sure - there was a slight taste of salt but it was a hot and sweaty day in Salvador and I'm not sure whether it was my sweaty finger I tasted or salt water. It certainly wasn't a strong salty taste but after being mixed with 10 litres of oil I suppose it wouldn't be, would it??

That would suggest FW put in by idiot; analysis of a sump sample would only be £30 or so if the evidence hasn't been got rid of. What were the rough proportions of water and oil when you drained it? Was there much emulsification?

 

[VicS]

That would suggest FW put in by idiot; analysis of a sump sample would only be £30 or so if the evidence hasn't been got rid of. What were the rough proportions of water and oil when you drained it? Was there much emulsification?

Was there much emulsification?

Read the earlier posts!

.

 

[VicS]

That would suggest FW put in by idiot; analysis of a sump sample would only be £30 or so if the evidence hasn't been got rid of. What were the rough proportions of water and oil when you drained it? Was there much emulsification?

Was there much emulsification?

in an earlier post:

"it is clear that it the oil has emulsified from the oil filler cap downwards"​

 

[penfold]

I was querying the quantity, not whether it was there or not; a bit of mayo under the filler cap does not mean a sump full of it.

 

[Rhapsode]

That was a good idea, Penfold, except that I didn't think of it and now it's too late. I could have put a sample in a bottle and kept it until I eventually go home (probably not until next summer). We live and learn.

To give an idea of the emulsification - I thought I'd start the pump out via the dip stick tube in case the liquid would flood out uncontrollably from the lower point on the sump. As I pumped it out it gave the appearance of a stream of greyish milky vomit - but more frothy.

Later, when I transferred the pump to the lower acccess point it was more watery but still frothy.

With hindsight I think that the action of pumping it out probably made it appear more emulsified than it was when sitting in the engine.

 

[penfold]

The pumping might add froth, but most of the emulsification will have been done by the act of running the engine with water in the sump. The fact you didn't think it tasted like seawater makes me think it more likely to have been sweaty digits and fresh water rather than briny, but I can't comprehend what kind of ignoramus would put water into an orifice guarded by a cap with a pretty oilcan symbol on it. Multiple oil changes with running the engine under load to get it up to temperature between(important to do that, as tickover or even revving out of gear does not heat through effectively) will shift residual moisture.

 

[noelex]

I would try and diagnose this from the causes of engine flooding

1. Stuck syphon valve. This can be tested with suck and blow

2. Exhaust elbow. Remove and inspect a hole sould be obvious

3.Head gasket. See online, numerous tests, look or bubbles, or smell in the coolant

4. Over cranking and filling up the exhaust system. No real test as far as know, but at least if this was the problem I does not need a repair only a more sensible mechanic in future.