Volvo TAMD 73/74 and 75 ECU - Cause for concern?

[petem]

I imagine that VP/Nira will make them for as long as they are able to and for as long as it's profitable. It's as simple as that.

No doubt there will come a time when they simply stop making them at which point I suspect that some enterprising person will reverse engineer a replacement or someone will start selling conversion kits to mechanical injection pumps (effectively a KAD43) and get rid of the ECU requirement.

At least with engine like this there are sufficient numbers out there for these exercises to be worthwhile.

 

[Portofino]

OK then, how many hours work do you think it would take to program and test an ECU (including all of the feeds and controls that I mentioned above)?

Can you post a link to a suitable ECU?

Not a lot it seems .
Pity about the potting .Why did VP do that ?
Remote mounting dry boards like the “ others “ and every car manufacturer is the way to go…….easy to fix .

Tamar Electronics | Diesel ECU Repairs in Ivybridge, Devon | Home

 

[westernman]

respectfully massively disagree here as an ECU engineer myself its not a big job at all there's nothing complicated about the engines in the slightest infact they're simplier than most mid 90's ecu driven road car engines.

Would enough people be interested and prepared to pay enough to make it worthwhile for you to do it???

 

[petem]

Not a lot it seems .
Pity about the potting .Why did VP do that ?
Remote mounting dry boards like the “ others “ and every car manufacturer is the way to go…….easy to fix .

Tamar Electronics | Diesel ECU Repairs in Ivybridge, Devon | Home

There's nothing wrong with potting but as I said a silicone potting compound would have allowed these to be repaired whereas the epoxy potting compound used by VP doesn't.

The ECU repairers won't touch them because they can't remove the potting compound and they have no way of testing the boards (other than at a very crude component level).

 

[hinch]

OK then, how many hours work do you think it would take to program and test an ECU (including all of the feeds and controls that I mentioned above)?

Can you post a link to a suitable ECU?

from experience doing something like this cold, assuming you could list every sensor and its operating params ie: have access to a full workshop manual its probably no more than a a couple of weeks work to get a base tune up and running that could then be refined upon to pull in tune. maybe another 2-3 weeks of testing/refining etc.
Obviously if its an electronic gearbox that'll add complexity but again they're not 10 geared monster auto's like you get in cars they're big tanks of 2 speeds or CV's so very easy map/tune for.

For an engine as basic as these an old emerald would do it on a simple 8 bit controller though i'd be tempted by bosch maybe an MS 25 but basically anything on here https://ssdiesel.com/product-category/electronics/ would do what you wanted and just need a custom loom making to tie all the sensors in.

failing that these guys make custom ecu's on demand although expensive if someones just paid 5k for a 2nd hand 20 year old one then their 5k for brand new custom purpose is a steal HOME | scs-delta

 

[hinch]

Would enough people be interested and prepared to pay enough to make it worthwhile for you to do it???

if you wanted a pcb designing and the software for doing the tuning on no worries thats what I do, I don't do the actual tuning i'm an electronics engineer & software engineer not an engine engineer, but I do know enough to be experienced in whats required by them when given a test bed engine a load of wires and a brand new ecu design

 

[petem]

from experience doing something like this cold, assuming you could list every sensor and its operating params ie: have access to a full workshop manual its probably no more than a a couple of weeks work to get a base tune up and running that could then be refined upon to pull in tune. maybe another 2-3 weeks of testing/refining etc.
Obviously if its an electronic gearbox that'll add complexity but again they're not 10 geared monster auto's like you get in cars they're big tanks of 2 speeds or CV's so very easy map/tune for.

For an engine as basic as these an old emerald would do it on a simple 8 bit controller though i'd be tempted by bosch maybe an MS 25 but basically anything on here https://ssdiesel.com/product-category/electronics/ would do what you wanted and just need a custom loom making to tie all the sensors in.

failing that these guys make custom ecu's on demand although expensive if someones just paid 5k for a 2nd hand 20 year old one then their 5k for brand new custom purpose is a steal HOME | scs-delta

I looks like the MS 25 is designed for solenoid injectors. The KAD engines don't have solenoid injectors.

I found a far more suitable ECU that can run a VP37 injection pump but one issue is that you need an engine for development work.

Also, the workshop manual does give you some parameters but you still need to figure out a lot of them for yourself.

 

[hinch]

you can work out some as long as you have some core ones injector pressure etc bore/stroke, idle rpm gearing etc but yeah the main problem is having a development engine to work on as you say solenoid injectors for some ecu models i was summarising without spending time looking in depth but tbh swapping out to individually controlled electronic injectors isn't complicated neither is going full electronic fuel pump. it entirely depends how far you want to go i mean you could potentially make (and i've prototyped this way) an ecu out of a raspberry pi)

I'm fairly sure if i gave a test engine to a friend of mine along with a core ecu he'd be able to get an off the shelf setup working no worries he does it with race cars all the time for people like aerial and mercedes etc

 

[volvopaul]

For an outsider to remake the out of stock ecu would be a massive task based on start up costs , the main issue would be a liability issue to the end user.

Ive been involved in this from the start as you all know I am the said engineer who was working alongside Mike Miller , Mike started this thread with my input , eventually after many months an ecu was found and supplied by Volvo to get the job done as they say .
I have not heard anything further regarding the the restoration of supply from Volvo so I am assuming the product is still out of stock with no lead time or remedy from Volvo as to how the supply issue will be resolved .

After asking many questions as to why the supply chain was broken I we have had no further reply other than a date that supply to Volvo was ceased , we cannot repeat that.
As far as I know it’s still a good luck scenario to anyone owning an engine that is run by this ecu.
I do stand to be corrected if the issue has been resolved and we now have a healthy supply.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

A friend of mine had an ECU problem on a Tamd73, and was supplied one in a month the past Summer. So is it bad as it looks?
Also he told me that he was told that the T73 is the harder one to get. Volvo said that production was to be re-assumed this fall, but I really do not know what happened.

 

[petem]

you can work out some as long as you have some core ones injector pressure etc bore/stroke, idle rpm gearing etc but yeah the main problem is having a development engine to work on as you say solenoid injectors for some ecu models i was summarising without spending time looking in depth but tbh swapping out to individually controlled electronic injectors isn't complicated neither is going full electronic fuel pump. it entirely depends how far you want to go i mean you could potentially make (and i've prototyped this way) an ecu out of a raspberry pi)

I'm fairly sure if i gave a test engine to a friend of mine along with a core ecu he'd be able to get an off the shelf setup working no worries he does it with race cars all the time for people like aerial and mercedes etc

I work in software development and for me this is just as much a coding and testing exercise. And I've seen how long seemingly simple things can take to properly test and de-bug.

Incidentally, there are at least 7 variants of this ECU that will need to be coded!

Let's see what VP come up with. If they officially announce end of support for these engines / ECU's then that's the time to consider developing an alternative. It would certainly make the job easier if VP would share the source code.

Pete

 

[petem]

For an outsider to remake the out of stock ecu would be a massive task based on start up costs , the main issue would be a liability issue to the end user.

Ive been involved in this from the start as you all know I am the said engineer who was working alongside Mike Miller , Mike started this thread with my input , eventually after many months an ecu was found and supplied by Volvo to get the job done as they say .
I have not heard anything further regarding the the restoration of supply from Volvo so I am assuming the product is still out of stock with no lead time or remedy from Volvo as to how the supply issue will be resolved .

After asking many questions as to why the supply chain was broken I we have had no further reply other than a date that supply to Volvo was ceased , we cannot repeat that.
As far as I know it’s still a good luck scenario to anyone owning an engine that is run by this ecu.
I do stand to be corrected if the issue has been resolved and we now have a healthy supply.

It's a shame, but understandable, that Mike seems to have found an issue for his customer's boat and is no longer proactively chasing VP.

 

[hinch]

I work in software development and for me this is just as much a coding and testing exercise. And I've seen how long seemingly simple things can take to properly test and de-bug.

Incidentally, there are at least 7 variants of this ECU that will need to be coded!

Let's see what VP come up with. If they officially announce end of support for these engines / ECU's then that's the time to consider developing an alternative. It would certainly make the job easier if VP would share the source code.

Pete

yeah its probably more software than hardware these days. back 20 years ago when these engines were out we used dedicated embedded controllers for everything. now most things are just general processing units with lots of gpio headers on them and weather/stability work takes up the bulk of the work. just look at the uptick in things like network switches they're now just raspberry pi's with a backplane in a case and a "firmware" to do all the networking functionality as SDN (open a mikrotik or unifi switch and look vs an old cisco)
making a header board to connect to all the sensors is easy, reading and validating all the sensors and their ranges into a base software platform also easy. feeding that back into the engine to trigger relays/solenoids etc slightly more complicated but not really. writing the software to tie it all together and the pretty little management interface to be able to program them, time consuming and slow.
interestingly though 7 different versions would be fairly easy to cater for on a io heavy "ecu".

If you want to see how far using software to replicate hardware comes from look at a product called a pistorm its basically a breakout board for the gpio headers on a raspberrypi that is then plugged into the cpu socket of an old motorolla 68000 cpu on an amiga. the pi runs linux and then runs an emulator on top that allows the gpio lines to behave like the pins on the old physical cpu and the entire hardware cpu instruction set is emulated in software. basically software defined cpu as a drop in replacement for hardware cpu!
so yeah 20 years ago making an ecu was difficult and kept me well paid, these days its very different.

 

[oldgit]

For some of us searching around at the moment for a boat,the engine installed is the first priority and has become a major factor in considering a purchase.
Not the fuel consumption or the actual condition but the worry that a major component of a popular range of engines cannot be replaced/repaired, or sourced , new, secondhand or aftermarket.

A few years ago a chum had VP engines which were failing mid voyage. Over many months he went to great expence, time and trouble to try and sort the problem, boat was eventually sold on.
Recently told that the boat still has problems.

 

[petem]

yeah its probably more software than hardware these days. back 20 years ago when these engines were out we used dedicated embedded controllers for everything. now most things are just general processing units with lots of gpio headers on them and weather/stability work takes up the bulk of the work. just look at the uptick in things like network switches they're now just raspberry pi's with a backplane in a case and a "firmware" to do all the networking functionality as SDN (open a mikrotik or unifi switch and look vs an old cisco)
making a header board to connect to all the sensors is easy, reading and validating all the sensors and their ranges into a base software platform also easy. feeding that back into the engine to trigger relays/solenoids etc slightly more complicated but not really. writing the software to tie it all together and the pretty little management interface to be able to program them, time consuming and slow.
interestingly though 7 different versions would be fairly easy to cater for on a io heavy "ecu".

If you want to see how far using software to replicate hardware comes from look at a product called a pistorm its basically a breakout board for the gpio headers on a raspberrypi that is then plugged into the cpu socket of an old motorolla 68000 cpu on an amiga. the pi runs linux and then runs an emulator on top that allows the gpio lines to behave like the pins on the old physical cpu and the entire hardware cpu instruction set is emulated in software. basically software defined cpu as a drop in replacement for hardware cpu!
so yeah 20 years ago making an ecu was difficult and kept me well paid, these days its very different.

The KAD44 injection pump is essentially the same as the one on old v6 VP Passats (Bosch VP37 IIRC). There was a bloke on Youtube who managed to get one basically running using a Pi or Arduino (I can't remember which) so these things are possible. But there's a big difference in an academic / fun exercise and having a product that you can sell and warrant.

 

[petem]

For some of us searching around at the moment for a boat,the engine installed is the first priority and has become a major factor in considering a purchase.
Not the fuel consumption or the actual condition but the worry that a major component of a popular range of engines cannot be replaced/repaired, or sourced , new, secondhand or aftermarket.

A few years ago a chum had VP engines which were failing mid voyage. Over many months he went to great expence, time and trouble to try and sort the problem, boat was eventually sold on.
Recently told that the boat still has problems.

You've got a choice. An engine that is rare and probably better built than a VP. If you get issues with it there will be a small number of mechanics able to fix it.

Or a ubiquitous VP engine where there's plenty of knowledge and mechanics out there to fix them and a large market for aftermarket parts.

 

[westernman]

You've got a choice. An engine that is rare and probably better built than a VP. If you get issues with it there will be a small number of mechanics able to fix it.

Or a ubiquitous VP engine where there's plenty of knowledge and mechanics out there to fix them and a large market for aftermarket parts.

But the VP engines can't be fixed by the mechanics out there, because they can't get the ECUs.
Which means if there is any issue with the ECU, the engine is junk.

And VP don't seem to care as the engines are (according to them) too old (20 years or so) and they expect you to buy a brand new one.
From them.

 

[petem]

But the VP engines can't be fixed by the mechanics out there, because they can't get the ECUs.
Which means if there is any issue with the ECU, the engine is junk.

And VP don't seem to care as the engines are (according to them) too old (20 years or so) and they expect you to buy a brand new one.
From them.

Have you actually read any of the previous posts in this thread?

 

[hinch]

The KAD44 injection pump is essentially the same as the one on old v6 VP Passats (Bosch VP37 IIRC). There was a bloke on Youtube who managed to get one basically running using a Pi or Arduino (I can't remember which) so these things are possible. But there's a big difference in an academic / fun exercise and having a product that you can sell and warrant.

god yes you wouldn't even attempt to warrant something hacked together like that it'd be for prototype/shits and giggles only but the same carries over most aftermarket ecu's these days are basically general purpose compute units and its all software for example I use a holley terminator in one of my cars on an engine holley don't officially support but it works just fine with a few tweaks and me remembering things like pcv is actually cam phaser on my engine.
I suppose the point i'm getting at is there are solutions available out there probably cheaper than the 5k someone said their paid for an old ass VP ecu but they're not on a mass market basis but on an as needed basis. Like if i had an TAMD74 or 75 in my boat and it died I'd be fixing it with an aftermarket ecu and a bit of time rather than paying 5k for a known weak part from VP

 

[Sticky Fingers]

For an outsider to remake the out of stock ecu would be a massive task based on start up costs , the main issue would be a liability issue to the end user.

Ive been involved in this from the start as you all know I am the said engineer who was working alongside Mike Miller , Mike started this thread with my input , eventually after many months an ecu was found and supplied by Volvo to get the job done as they say .
I have not heard anything further regarding the the restoration of supply from Volvo so I am assuming the product is still out of stock with no lead time or remedy from Volvo as to how the supply issue will be resolved .

After asking many questions as to why the supply chain was broken I we have had no further reply other than a date that supply to Volvo was ceased , we cannot repeat that.
As far as I know it’s still a good luck scenario to anyone owning an engine that is run by this ecu.
I do stand to be corrected if the issue has been resolved and we now have a healthy supply.

I seem to recall that there was a Cummins repower engine that fitted onto the same engine mounts as (some) VP engines (72s?) and c ould potentially also utilise the existing gearbox? Is that right, if so it might be an alternative route.